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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards  (Read 59543 times)

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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« on: November 04, 2015, 08:56:20 am »
+30

70+ votes for Adventures cards, 105+ votes for the rest.

The Best - Cards (Part 1/3)

#33 ▼1 Duchess (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 9.4% ▼2.7pp / Unweighted Average: 10.4% / Median: 6.3% ▼3.2pp / Standard Deviation: 14.1%

Duchess is back in the last place just like in 2012 Edition 1. It has the second lowest deviation in this list. It has 26 last votes and no votes above 50% except one who voted it first!
#32 ▲1 Secret Chamber (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 10.0% ▼1.0pp / Unweighted Average: 11.3% / Median: 4.8% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 16.9%

Secret Chamber is not the worst $2 card anymore, with a lead of 0.6pp, but it still lost 1pp. It has more last places than Duchess though: 28. But it was voted 6 times above 50%. It has still a pretty low deviation.
#31 ▼1 Herbalist (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 15.5% ▼6.3pp / Unweighted Average: 16.7% / Median: 12.5%  ▼6.6pp / Standard Deviation: 15.4%

Herbalist lost over 6pp and one place, but is still over 5pp better than Secret Chamber.  The agreement is much higher; it has the third lowest deviation. It has 11 last places and 3 votes above 50%.
#30 ▲1 Pearl Diver (Seaside) Weighted Average: 17.3% ▲1.6pp / Unweighted Average: 20.3% / Median: 15.6% ▲1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 19.7%

Pearl Diver is slightly better and one rank higher. It was voted last 11 times and 8 times above average.
#29 =0 Beggar (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 21.4% ▼9.2pp / Unweighted Average: 22.8% / Median: 18.8% ▼9.8pp / Standard Deviation: 18.3%

Beggar lost quite a lot, but stays still on the same rank. It was voted 5 times last and 9 times above 50%.
#28 ▼3 Embargo (Seaside) Weighted Average: 26.9% ▼13.8pp / Unweighted Average: 29.4% / Median: 28.1% ▼10.0pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7%

Embargo is one of the biggest losers. It's over 13pp worse than last time and lost 3 ranks. It was voted last 4 times and 9 times above average.
#27 Quest (Adventures) Weighted Average: 29.4% / Unweighted Average: 30.2% / Median: 25.0% / Standard Deviation: 20.9%

Quest is the worst of the new Adventures cards. It was voted last once and 12 times above 50%.
#26 Scouting Party (Adventures) Weighted Average: 31.6% / Unweighted Average: 33.5% / Median: 28.1% / Standard Deviation: 23.4%

And the second Adventures cards follows immediately. It has a pretty high deviation. It was voted last once and 16 times above average.
#25 ▼1 Poor House (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 31.7% ▼6.1pp / Unweighted Average: 33.1% / Median: 28.1% ▼10.0pp / Standard Deviation: 21.8%

Poor House is definitely worse than last time and lost one rank. It has only a lead of 0.1pp over Scouting Party. In the unweighted average it's even below Scouting Party. It was voted last 3 times and 10 times above 70%.
#24 ▲2 Moat (Base) Weighted Average: 35.3% ▲1.4pp / Unweighted Average: 33.4% / Median: 29.2% ▲0.6pp / Standard Deviation: 19.7%

Moat is slightly better than last time, but is even 2 ranks higher. It has only a lead of 0.3pp in the unweighted average over Poor House. It was voted last 3 times and 8 times above 70%.
#23 ▲2 Vagrant (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 36.6% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 36.5% / Median: 34.4% ▲1.1pp / Standard Deviation: 17.3%

Vagrant almost stayed the same, but is just like Moat 2 ranks higher than last time. It has a pretty low deviation. It was voted last twice and only 3 times above 70%.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2015, 08:56:29 am »
+15

The Best - Cards (Part 2/3)

#22 ▼1 Haven (Seaside) Weighted Average: 41.6% ▼2.3pp / Unweighted Average: 42.9% / Median: 42.9% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 20.6%

Haven has a decent 5pp lead over Vagrant and lost one rank in comparism to last year. It has 3 last places and 10 votes above 70%.
#21 ▼1 Pawn (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 42.3% ▼5.5pp / Unweighted Average: 43.1% / Median: 42.9% ▼9.5pp / Standard Deviation: 17.6%

Pawn lost also one rank, but a quite a bit more in its average value. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It has a pretty low deviation as it was never voted last and has also only 8 votes above 70%.
#20 ▲2 Cellar (Base) Weighted Average: 42.9% ▼0.3pp / Unweighted Average: 42.8% / Median: 41.2% ▼1.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.4%

Cellar's average value stayed basically the same, but still it's 2 ranks higher than last time. It would be below Pawn in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last 3 times and 10 times above 70%.
#19 Travelling Fair (Adventures) Weighted Average: 47.8% / Unweighted Average: 45.7% / Median: 46.9% / Standard Deviation: 23.1%

Travelling Fair is the third new event in this list. It has a pretty high deviation. It was voted last once and 14 times above 70%, even once on the first rank.
#18 Save (Adventures) Weighted Average: 50.8% / Unweighted Average: 48.2% / Median: 43.8% / Standard Deviation: 22.4%

And we're now above 50% and here comes even the fourth event. It was voted below 30% 15 times and above 70% 15 times as well.
#17 =0 Native Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 51.7% ▲0.8pp / Unweighted Average: 53.9% / Median: 53.9% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 19.2%

Native Village stayed on the same rank with almost the same average value. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 12 times below 30%.
#16 Borrow (Adventures) Weighted Average: 52.7% / Unweighted Average: 52.2% / Median: 53.1% / Standard Deviation: 23.5%

And the fifth event! Borrow would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It has the highest deviation in this list so far. It was voted 13 times below 30% with 2 last ranks.
#15 Raze (Adventures) Weighted Average: 54.2% / Unweighted Average: 54.4% / Median: 53.6% / Standard Deviation: 24.9%

Finally the first real card from Adventures. It has the third highest deviation in this list. It was voted 18 times below 30%, but on the other side first twice.
#14 Alms (Adventures) Weighted Average: 56.8% / Unweighted Average: 58.9% / Median: 65.6% / Standard Deviation: 27.6%

And the next event. Alms would be two ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It has by far the highest deviation in this list. It was voted 15 times below 30%.
#13 Coin of the Realm (Adventures) Weighted Average: 58.1% / Unweighted Average: 57.7% / Median: 59.4% / Standard Deviation: 20.9%

The fourth Adventures card in a row! Coin of the Realm would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 8 times below 30% with one last rank.
#12 =0 Crossroads (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 58.6% ▼1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 58.3% / Median: 59.4% ▼2.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.0%

Crossroads lost a little bit, but stayed on the same rank. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 12 times below 30%.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 04:44:06 am by Qvist »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2015, 08:56:47 am »
+12

The Best - Cards (Part 3/3)

#11 ▼1 Candlestick Maker (Guilds) Weighted Average: 61.7% ▼5.7pp / Unweighted Average: 63.0% / Median: 62.5% ▼8.9pp / Standard Deviation: 18.1%

Candlestick Maker lost in its average value and also a rank. It was voted only 4 times below 30%, once on the last rank. It has also two first ranks.
#10 Ratcatcher (Adventures) Weighted Average: 65.4% / Unweighted Average: 64.1% / Median: 65.6% / Standard Deviation: 17.9%

Ratcatcher is the next Adventures card. It was voted only 3 times below 30%.
#9 ▼2 Squire (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 69.6% ▼2.0pp / Unweighted Average: 68.6% / Median: 71.4% ▼4.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.7%

Squire lost only 2pp, but still lost 2 ranks. It was voted 13 times below average and once on the first rank.
#8 =0 Lighthouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 72.3% ▲2.1pp / Unweighted Average: 72.6% / Median: 75.0% ▲3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 17.2%

Lighthouse is slightly better, but is still on the same rank. It has a pretty low deviation. It was voted 10 times below 50% and has 2 first ranks.
#7 ▼1 Hamlet (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 76.4% ▼4.3pp / Unweighted Average: 76.3% / Median: 81.0% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.9%

Hamlet lost this year one rank again. But it would be even 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted only 7 times below 50%.
#6 ▼2 Fool's Gold (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 76.5% ▼6.6pp / Unweighted Average: 76.0% / Median: 84.% ▼1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8%

Fool's Gold is a big loser, it lost over 6pp and 2 ranks and it's only 0.05pp better than Hamlet, so it was very close. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 11 times below average and 3 times on the first rank.
#5 =0 Courtyard (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 76.7% ▼4.2pp / Unweighted Average: 74.2% / Median: 80.1% ▼5.6pp / Standard Deviation: 21.1%

Courtyard lost a bit, but is still on the same rank, although it's only 0.25pp better than Fool's Gold and 0.3pp better than Hamlet. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 12 times below average and 3 times on the first rank.
#4 ▲6 Stonemason (Guilds) Weighted Average: 79.7% ▲15.4pp / Unweighted Average: 74.5% / Median: 81.3% ▲9.9pp / Standard Deviation: 22.8%

Stonemason is the big winner in this year's list. It's over 15pp and 6 ranks better, wow! In the unweighted ranking it would be 2 ranks lower. It was 14 times below 50% with 2 ranks. On the other side it was voted 3 times on the first rank.
#3 Peasant (Adventures) Weighted Average: 82.2% / Unweighted Average: 77.0% / Median: 87.5% / Standard Deviation: 25.0%

Peasant is the second best new Adventures card. It has also the second highest deviation in this list with 9 votes below average with one last rank on one side and 7 first ranks on the other side.
#2 Page (Adventures) Weighted Average: 87.6% / Unweighted Average: 82.1% / Median: 90.6% / Standard Deviation: 21.2%

Page is the best Adventures card in this list which means that both Travellers are in the Top 3. It has 8 votes below average and 4 first ranks.
#1 =0 Chapel (Base) Weighted Average: 97.6% ▲1.5pp / Unweighted Average: 95.4% / Median: 100% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 12.0%

Chapel is without a doubt still #1 with a lead of exactly 10pp and the lowest deviation in this list. It was only voted below average twice and was voted first 76 times!
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 06:07:25 am by Qvist »
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SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2015, 09:03:47 am »
+19

#5 =0 Ruined Village (Dark Ages)

Everyone voted it last except one person who voted it first.

#33 ▼1 Duchess (Hinterlands)

It has 26 last votes and no votes above 50% except one who voted it first!

Someone has submitted his ranking upside down.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2015, 09:08:21 am »
0

Apparently I am vastly underestimating the power of Raze... it sits near the bottom for me and is no where to be found in the bottom third. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2015, 09:09:53 am »
0

No develop in the bottom third?!  Craziness!  Although I do agree with it.

Develop costs
Whoops, my bad that was embarrassing.   You can remove your comment then if you want.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2015, 09:10:18 am »
0

Apparently I am vastly underestimating the power of Raze... it sits near the bottom for me and is no where to be found in the bottom third.
Non terminal trashing is best kind. That's why lookout is the best card in the game. ;)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2015, 09:17:06 am »
+6

So, yesterday I adjusted the color levels of all the cards I had scanned personally, and reuploaded them.  Basically everything except Base, Cornucopia, Dark Ages, and Envoy.  I think now the card images are a lot more consistent with each other - before there was an awkward range of darkness and washed-out-ness.  How does everyone else think they're looking?  I still need to do the Events.  Should I scan in Base, Cornucopia and Envoy?  And I can just take the already scanned Dark Ages images and adjust their color levels, as they're fairly high quality (if lower resolution) already.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2015, 10:09:45 am »
+1

Quest isn't THAT bad, guys. It's a nice way to speed up games where you're full of junk, and it gives Sea Hag a reason to exist after the Curses are gone (though Quest itself drives you away from Curse). I certainly like it better than Moat.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2015, 10:18:06 am »
+2

I think we are under rating scouting party. It is often a good buy to cycle, especially with these new travellers.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2015, 10:21:46 am »
+4

I think we are under rating scouting party. It is often a good buy to cycle, especially with these new travellers.

Let's be real, the word "Scout" is a mental block that many won't ever get past.

Scouting Party really isn't very good, but I buy it more than most of these other 2s just for the cycling or for clearing top of deck junk.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2015, 10:23:15 am »
+1

I think we are under rating scouting party. It is often a good buy to cycle, especially with these new travellers.

I dislike that the discarding is mandatory.  But if it isn't mandatory, then sometimes you'd just look at the top 5 and reorder them.  For .  When the only card that can possibly care about that order is Outpost.  So.  Eh.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2015, 10:25:31 am »
+1


I dislike that the discarding is mandatory.  But if it isn't mandatory, then sometimes you'd just look at the top 5 and reorder them.  For .  When the only card that can possibly care about that order is Outpost.  So.  Eh.

Alchemist, Scheme, Watchtower, Nomad Camp, Treasury, Herbalist and probably others care as well.

Also Events are not cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2015, 10:29:32 am »
+1

Well, only one card outside of my bottom 11 made it into this list, and it was at #21.  I had Haven down there, which while not a bad card, is generally inconsequential in my opinion.  Beggar might be weak a lot of the time, but has a lot of value in certain strategies (especially with some Alt VP).  I guess it comes down to what people think is the better card: one that's not often good but can be really strong, or one that is never great but can often provide some small value.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2015, 10:29:57 am »
+1

Scouting party-tunnel is way way fast
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2015, 11:14:46 am »
+7

the systematic and soul-crushing community bias against Duchess continues .
not that it's a good card, but I mean Secret Chamber, that's like, bad card de chez bad card.
Duchess is free! You're too good for a free duchess?? take a Duchess.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 11:22:58 am »
0

the systematic and soul-crushing community bias against Duchess continues .
not that it's a good card, but I mean Secret Chamber, that's like, bad card de chez bad card.
Duchess is free! You're too good for a free duchess?? take a Duchess.
I totally agree with ya man.  I actually had duchess ahead of scouting party and secret chamber.  Most of the time secret chamber is a terminal copper.  And very rarely does it ever shine.  Now duchess may never really shine,  but it's 99% of the time a better source of money.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2015, 12:07:33 pm »
+2

Duchess is hard to rank... I'm guessing one of the main ways in which people ranked cards was by thinking "If I had to spend, what would I buy? And in this situation, the fact that you can get Duchess for free actually works against Duchess, even though it's an ability that makes Duchess better, not worse.

One can also ask "If I could have any in my hand to play right now, what do I wish that card were? And again, the ability to get Duchess for free isn't accounted for there either.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2015, 12:07:57 pm »
+2

Once again...it wasn't me who put Duchess on the top!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 12:13:40 pm »
+4

Once again...it wasn't me who put Duchess on the top!

So you like to be on top instead?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2015, 12:19:09 pm »
0

Once again...it wasn't me who put Duchess on the top!

So you like to be on top instead?
Dude...I'm like half your age.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2015, 12:23:09 pm »
+9

Once again...it wasn't me who put Duchess on the top!

So you like to be on top instead?
Dude...I'm like half your age.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2015, 12:29:40 pm »
0

Once again...it wasn't me who put Duchess on the top!

So you like to be on top instead?
Dude...I'm like half your age.

Hey, I'm not that old.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2015, 12:37:17 pm »
+4

Duchess is a terminal silver with a big benefit for your opponent.  One might think that terminal silver for $2 is good, but both Duchess and Embargo are near the bottom.

Secret Chamber is usually quite bad, but the reaction can be very helpful in top-deck inspection attacks (esp Knights, Swindler) or to help line up a village with draw.  Also, when it is possible to discard a bunch of stuff for cash and re-draw it, SC becomes bonkers. It also can't directly help your opponent without your direct consent, such as top-decking a province to get swindled into Prince/Peddler or something like that.  The "bonkers" potential is likely what gets it the nod over Duchess.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2015, 12:47:38 pm »
0

To add to that, I also think the top-deck inspection is a bit better for the enemy than it is for oneself. If I ever play with a duchess, I'll play it at the end of my turn where I get to inspect one of my 5starting cards for the next turn (usually) while my opponent can inspect which card he's going to draw next. I do find it rarely better than Silver besides on Pool boards maybe.

Secret Chamber is usually pretty bad, but there are atleast situaitions where it's close to decent.

I for one, am interested where the rest of the events ended up, I put them pretty far down except one of them. (As in 17-22).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2015, 01:15:53 pm »
+1

I'm pretty surprised that Haven isn't in the bottom 10.  I had it below Moat, Embargo, Vagrant, Scouting Party, and Quest.  In my experience, it doesn't change the game much.  Generally, it's slightly useful (better than Pearl Diver), but it rarely shines and it often hurts.  Moat and Embargo seem pretty underrated here.  +2 cards isn't so bad in a thin deck with a lot of villages, and the attack stopping is a significant upside on most boards.  Moat gets better in 3 and 4 player games, which should factor into the ranking, IMO.  I don't buy Embargo often, but it's impact on the game is significant (even if no-one buys it!).  It stops most combos in their tracks and rewards divergent strategies.  I'll admit that it is difficult to evaluate.  I also had Duchess higher: it makes it easier to grab Duchies earlier on a non-significant number of boards.  That's a larger impact than Pearl Diver or Herbalist usually have, IMO.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2015, 02:23:15 pm »
+9

Duchess is hard to rank... I'm guessing one of the main ways in which people ranked cards was by thinking "If I had to spend, what would I buy? And in this situation, the fact that you can get Duchess for free actually works against Duchess, even though it's an ability that makes Duchess better, not worse.

One can also ask "If I could have any in my hand to play right now, what do I wish that card were? And again, the ability to get Duchess for free isn't accounted for there either.

The fact that the cards/event rankings are divided by cost (or range of costs) encourages you to ask this sort of "which would I rather buy at this cost" method of comparison. Unfortunately, it's pretty flawed. Duchess is just one example of this; a lot of Events make absolutely no sense to rank using this criteria. "If you have $2, do you buy Courtyard or Borrow?" That's a nonsensical question because you are using Borrow to buy something else. Likewise with Alms, Ball, etc.

I think a better way to rank things is, if Player A has exclusive access to this card/event but player B has exclusive access to this other card/event, who has the advantage? This still isn't perfect because you have to ignore the interactions between the two cards (Lookout may beat Sea Hag, but that doesn't make it a stronger card across the board). But at least it makes sense to ask, "If Player A can't buy Borrow, but player B can't buy/gain Courtyard, who has the bigger disadvantage?"
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 03:34:34 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2015, 03:02:49 pm »
+1

I'm pretty surprised that Haven isn't in the bottom 10.  I had it below Moat, Embargo, Vagrant, Scouting Party, and Quest.  In my experience, it doesn't change the game much.  Generally, it's slightly useful (better than Pearl Diver), but it rarely shines and it often hurts.  Moat and Embargo seem pretty underrated here.  +2 cards isn't so bad in a thin deck with a lot of villages, and the attack stopping is a significant upside on most boards.  Moat gets better in 3 and 4 player games, which should factor into the ranking, IMO.  I don't buy Embargo often, but it's impact on the game is significant (even if no-one buys it!).  It stops most combos in their tracks and rewards divergent strategies.  I'll admit that it is difficult to evaluate.  I also had Duchess higher: it makes it easier to grab Duchies earlier on a non-significant number of boards.  That's a larger impact than Pearl Diver or Herbalist usually have, IMO.

Well, it's significantly useful. Pretty often, it makes a junk card miss the reshuffle, which is pretty good.

(Lookout may beat Sea Hag, but that doesn't make it a stronger card across the board).

That is true. It is a stronger card across the board for completely different reasons.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 03:04:00 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2015, 03:14:25 pm »
+1

(Lookout may beat Sea Hag, but that doesn't make it a stronger card across the board).

That is true. It is a stronger card across the board for completely different reasons.

Sure, I'm totally willing to believe that. But you get the idea.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2015, 03:30:35 pm »
+3

My issue with Embargo is that it doesn't really help you unless someone already committed to a strategy that requires massing up a particular card like alt-vp. If you embargo the strongest kingdom card, then you can't get it without cursing yourself either, barring some exceptions like having a gainer or Watchtower. Your opponent can get those too though. It's often a prisoner's dilemma kind of thing when it comes to the decision of whether or not to embargo a key card pile.

I find that it's hard to get an asymmetric effect out of the Embargo token that leaves you in a better position. It can be used as a win-while-ahead card if you were faster to get your share of a key card and then embargo it. Even the Silver pile can do. If you can pull that off then the token is useful.

What's nice about Embargo is that it's a terminal +$2 for $2 that disappears from your deck after use. It helps a lot with 5/2 openings.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 03:57:40 pm by markusin »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2015, 03:36:46 pm »
0

I find that it's hard to get an asymmetric effect out of the Embargo token that leaves you in a better position. It can be used as a win-while-ahead card if you were faster to get your share of a key card and then embargo it. Even the Silver pile can do. If you can pull that off then the token is useful.

I find actually doing this nearly impossible, which is too bad. By the time I play Embargo, my opponent(s) nearly always have bought the card I wanted to block. As an Event (or an on-gain ability) it would work better. Maybe too much better, hard to say.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2015, 03:42:26 pm »
+1

Yeah, the embargo part of Embargo doesn't hardly do anything at all. Though it sure does seem to trick a lot of people into thinking it does.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2015, 03:48:22 pm »
+1

Yeah, the embargo part of Embargo doesn't hardly do anything at all. Though it sure does seem to trick a lot of people into thinking it does.

This confuses me. Is that supposed to be a double negative? It looks like one to me.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2015, 03:50:09 pm »
0

It's probably just terrible writing! I mean that the embargoing is hard to use effectively/strategically.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2015, 03:50:39 pm »
0

Yeah, the embargo part of Embargo doesn't hardly do anything at all. Though it sure does seem to trick a lot of people into thinking it does.

This confuses me. Is that supposed to be a double negative? It looks like one to me.

Just remove the adverb from the sentence and the meaning is clear; 'hardly' is in the sentence only to make room for edge cases.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2015, 04:23:26 pm »
0

Yeah, the embargo part of Embargo doesn't hardly do anything at all. Though it sure does seem to trick a lot of people into thinking it does.

This confuses me. Is that supposed to be a double negative? It looks like one to me.

Just remove the adverb from the sentence and the meaning is clear; 'hardly' is in the sentence only to make room for edge cases.

Yes, but it can also be used like: "It hardly does anything", and the sentence has the same meaning.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2015, 04:52:13 pm »
+1

Once again...it wasn't me who put Duchess on the top!

So you like to be on top instead?
Dude...I'm like half your age.

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Stop saying I'm "that old".
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2015, 04:55:21 pm »
0

Once again...it wasn't me who put Duchess on the top!

So you like to be on top instead?
Dude...I'm like half your age.

Hey, I'm not that old.
I'm the youngest person on f.ds who has been active in the past ten minutes!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2015, 05:04:14 pm »
+1

I find that it's hard to get an asymmetric effect out of the Embargo token that leaves you in a better position. It can be used as a win-while-ahead card if you were faster to get your share of a key card and then embargo it. Even the Silver pile can do. If you can pull that off then the token is useful.

I've had some success Embargoing potion-cost cards when there is a viable non-Alchemy route available, poor or no trashing, and my opponent opens with a potion.  Especially effective with Familiar and Alchemist when those two are possibly skippable in a given kingdom.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2015, 06:10:18 pm »
0

In general, Embargo is weak. I know I ranked it low. Even if my opponent successfully embargos a card I want, getting one curse is not that bad. Though, it is funny to watch the psychological effect with players, even good ones who won't buy the card they need just because it's embargoed.

Duchess is weak, but I believe I had Pearl Diver last. I mean, come on, unless you have tokens, or are buying it for Goons points, Pearl Diver is almost useless. My rank for last was Pearl Diver then Duchess then Secret Chamber.

I ranked Quest 26. Nowadays in Dominion with the engine-friendly environment that we mainly live in, Gold isn't that great of a card. I mean, it is okay, but not great. In slogs, the card is decent. I ranked Scouting Party just slightly higher at 23. Cycling is good, and it sure is better than being able to sometimes gain golds.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2015, 04:44:27 am »
+1

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2015, 04:55:37 am »
0

Duchess is weak, but I believe I had Pearl Diver last. I mean, come on, unless you have tokens, or are buying it for Goons points, Pearl Diver is almost useless.

It's almost useless, but not entirely useless, and it doesn't really hurt your deck either.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2015, 06:37:14 am »
0

I am more surprised that herbalist is ranked so low. Its +buy is more significant in engine than pearl diver for example.

As duchess she shines in rebuild games as you could get two basically for free and top-inspection is useful for you but not for opponent.

As embargo you need two conditions to make embargo part useful. First is that opponent is commited to some strategy, second that it requires him get 5+ cards from pile as getting only one curse isn't much noticable. That works mainly vs alchemist as embargoes one doesn't provide additional draw.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2015, 06:54:45 am »
0

Time to swoop in.

Guess who didn't put Traveling Fair first? Are you proud?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2015, 07:28:11 am »
0

Funny, I have the biggest disagreement with the two cards that have the most deviation, I rated both of them quite a bit lower, can anybody jump to their defense?

I consider Alm not very strong at all. Sure, you open with it 90% of the time(rather it matters 90% of the time), but afterwards? It may be quite neat neat to get a four cost instead of a three cost some time, but a lot of the times there is a viable card to buy for less, too. And it treasure less decks it's a workshop that costs a buy instead of an action and you can not gain+play it, so that's not really great either.

Well maybe you can trash more rigoriously, but that's about it.

The same for borrow: It's probably ok to buy it occasionally, but beyond that? I don't really see how it's stronger than some of the cards you could have bought.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2015, 07:36:02 am »
+3

Funny, I have the biggest disagreement with the two cards that have the most deviation, I rated both of them quite a bit lower, can anybody jump to their defense?

I consider Alm not very strong at all. Sure, you open with it 90% of the time(rather it matters 90% of the time), but afterwards? It may be quite neat neat to get a four cost instead of a three cost some time, but a lot of the times there is a viable card to buy for less, too. And it treasure less decks it's a workshop that costs a buy instead of an action and you can not gain+play it, so that's not really great either.

Well maybe you can trash more rigoriously, but that's about it.

The same for borrow: It's probably ok to buy it occasionally, but beyond that? I don't really see how it's stronger than some of the cards you could have bought.

For me, Alms changes the game in a huge way, kind of like Chapel.  You could use the one of the same arguments for Chapel you did for Alms: you use it all the time at the beginning of the game and almost never later.  But having both players be able to start 4/4 or even 4/5?  And when your shuffle dumps all 3 estates on you on turn 3 without a worthwhile 2 on the board, no longer have you a wasted turn.  It's not so much that it's a top-tier card, but it just changes the way the game is played. 

Sure it's not useful that much later in the game, but the simple factor of how much it changes the game early is enough for me to rank it rather high.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2015, 07:47:17 am »
+1

These cheap events really serve to mitigate the effects of shuffle luck, especially the nasty early game shuffle luck (bad opening split, golden sombrero, 4/4/no 5 on 2nd shuffle)...all those things that can so drastically cripple the more unlucky player. I think these events will go up in value quite a bit once Adventures is available online.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2015, 07:57:04 am »
+2

Whoa, Coin of the Realm below Crossroads, huh? That doesn't seem right.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2015, 08:05:40 am »
0

I haven't played a single game with Adventures (so I didn't actually rate any of the Adventures cards or events), but I think Borrow is pretty good. It happens quite often that you are exactly $1 short of whatever it is that you really want to buy. If it's your last turn, it doesn't even hurt you.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2015, 08:06:47 am »
0

Whoa, Coin of the Realm below Crossroads, huh? That doesn't seem right.
I think this might be an effect of many people not rating Adventures altogether. Percentage-wise most non adventurous cards will fare better than cards from Adventures, since Adventure density is higher at the top rather than at the bottom.
Am I making sense? I couldn't bother actually counting the missing cards to see if my assumption is right though. :)

Edit: I also don't know how Qvist conjures these numbers, so he might have adjusted for that.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 08:08:32 am by Accatitippi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2015, 08:09:45 am »
0

Whoa, Coin of the Realm below Crossroads, huh? That doesn't seem right.

Really? I don't think it's so obvious to me that CotR should be ranked higher. I had them close in ranking, but with Crossroads slightly higher just because you can get it's consistency boost every turn and sometimes it's a star.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2015, 08:13:55 am »
0

I think Crossroads should be above Coin of the Realm, so LF's confusion is confusing to me unless his assumption was that people would overrate COTR.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2015, 08:23:22 am »
+2

I think Crossroads should be above Coin of the Realm, so LF's confusion is confusing to me unless his assumption was that people would overrate COTR.

Crossroads is almost the definition of unreliable, whereas the entire point of Coin of the Realm is reliability. I guess reliability counts for a lot with me.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 08:27:53 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2015, 08:36:37 am »
+2

I wouldn't really call Crossroads unreliable. Its main selling point for me is the +3 Actions which you never not get the first time around. If you look at it as a drawer or want to rely on it as your draw, then it sure is very unreliable, but I just consider that a nice bonus that can sometimes be used to great effect.

With that said, I have Coin of the Realm on #6 and Crossroads on #11.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2015, 08:45:13 am »
0

Also, CoTR provides +2 Actions without requiring one, so that's equal to the benefit Croosroads provide given you're not playing it for Diadem money
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2015, 08:56:49 am »
+5

Funny, I have the biggest disagreement with the two cards that have the most deviation, I rated both of them quite a bit lower, can anybody jump to their defense?

I consider Alm not very strong at all. Sure, you open with it 90% of the time(rather it matters 90% of the time), but afterwards? It may be quite neat neat to get a four cost instead of a three cost some time, but a lot of the times there is a viable card to buy for less, too. And it treasure less decks it's a workshop that costs a buy instead of an action and you can not gain+play it, so that's not really great either.

Well maybe you can trash more rigoriously, but that's about it.
I think Alms is the most underrated card on the list so far (I ranked it 6th).  Here is why I think it's one of the cards with the highest impact:
  • Alms dramatically changes opening buy/gains.
  • Alms makes heavy trashing less costly.
  • Alms makes early gainers more valuable.
  • Alms makes early coin less valuable.
  • Alms makes virtual money decks with +buy more viable.
  • Alms reduces the effectiveness of early attacks like Militia and Cutpurse by providing a floor on the worst possible hand.
  • Alms smooths out bad hands early due to shuffle luck.
  • If you use Alms, you don't play any of your treasures, so you deny information to your opponent(s).
Now that I think on it, I might have underranked it at 6th!  I will be shocked if Alms doesn't rise in the next set of rankings.

I had Traveling Fair >> Save > Borrow, but they were all in the middle.  They all smooth out awkward buys, but I think +buy and top-decking is the most impactful of the bunch.

I also had Coin of the Realm > Crossroads: right in the middle of the pack.  They are tricky to compare, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2015, 09:53:07 am »
+2

On a board without important $5 cards, Alms is probably fantastic. With important $5 cards, it will mostly only matter in the opening. That's my prediction.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2015, 09:58:23 am »
0

I'd say take care not to evaluate the strength of Alms based on how it affects openin splits. That's like taking into account the starting Baker token when evaluating the strength of Baker.

The strength of Alms should be based on how easy it is to base a strategy that incorporates it better than other alternatives and the benefits it provides when doing so.

I see Alms as favouring engines that have lots of virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting). It also looks good in slogs or as a complement to rushes. So all in all it strengthens the non Big-Money strategies considerably and to me that makes it quite strong.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2015, 10:08:38 am »
+3

I find it interesting that Raze is below Ratcatcher apparently. I feel like Raze is stronger:

- it is a faster trasher. Ratcatcher needs two turn to take effect.
- Raze is a bit worse at trashing Copper, granted. I don't think that's huge.
- on the other hand, Raze is better for trashing Estates.
- both remove themselves from your deck when no longer needed. But Raze gives a benefit when doing that.
- Raze has some mid- to late-game utility, Ratcatcher doesn't.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2015, 10:14:29 am »
+2

I find it interesting that Raze is below Ratcatcher apparently. I feel like Raze is stronger:

- it is a faster trasher. Ratcatcher needs two turn to take effect.
- Raze is a bit worse at trashing Copper, granted. I don't think that's huge.
- on the other hand, Raze is better for trashing Estates.
- both remove themselves from your deck when no longer needed. But Raze gives a benefit when doing that.
- Raze has some mid- to late-game utility, Ratcatcher doesn't.

Raze reduces your handsize to three when trashing copper while Ratcatcher doesn't hurt you at all when playing and reduces your handsize by one when calling it, so it hurts your turn significantly less. Also the benefit of trashing Raze is marginally better than just playing Ratcatcher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2015, 10:21:29 am »
+3

I see Alms as favouring engines that have lots of virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting).

Alms favors engines that have ONLY virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2015, 10:23:21 am »
0

I see Alms as favouring engines that have lots of virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting).

Alms favors engines that have ONLY virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting).

i.e. Candlestick Maker
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2015, 11:13:15 am »
0

Funny, I have the biggest disagreement with the two cards that have the most deviation, I rated both of them quite a bit lower, can anybody jump to their defense?

I consider Alm not very strong at all. Sure, you open with it 90% of the time(rather it matters 90% of the time), but afterwards? It may be quite neat neat to get a four cost instead of a three cost some time, but a lot of the times there is a viable card to buy for less, too. And it treasure less decks it's a workshop that costs a buy instead of an action and you can not gain+play it, so that's not really great either.

Well maybe you can trash more rigoriously, but that's about it.
I think Alms is the most underrated card on the list so far (I ranked it 6th).  Here is why I think it's one of the cards with the highest impact:
  • Alms dramatically changes opening buy/gains.
  • Alms makes heavy trashing less costly.
  • Alms makes early gainers more valuable.
  • Alms makes early coin less valuable.
  • Alms makes virtual money decks with +buy more viable.
  • Alms reduces the effectiveness of early attacks like Militia and Cutpurse by providing a floor on the worst possible hand.
  • Alms smooths out bad hands early due to shuffle luck.
  • If you use Alms, you don't play any of your treasures, so you deny information to your opponent(s).
Now that I think on it, I might have underranked it at 6th!  I will be shocked if Alms doesn't rise in the next set of rankings.

I agree with everything you said. I have Alms on 3rd place myself, after Page and Chapel. Funny how its deviation is so incredibly high...

--

I'm excited to find out whether Chapel is still #1, and if so, by how much :)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2015, 11:43:21 am »
0

I see Alms as favouring engines that have lots of virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting).

Alms favors engines that have ONLY virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting).

Good point, Eventually many engine want Gold and other Treasures, but during the buildup you can skip playing a Silver or a couple of Coppers to get some extra stuff without adding an extra stop card to your deck. Or you can call Secret Chamber to the rescue.

I honestly need more experience with the card to understand it's fill potential.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2015, 11:47:45 am »
0

I find it interesting that Raze is below Ratcatcher apparently. I feel like Raze is stronger:

- it is a faster trasher. Ratcatcher needs two turn to take effect.
- Raze is a bit worse at trashing Copper, granted. I don't think that's huge.
- on the other hand, Raze is better for trashing Estates.
- both remove themselves from your deck when no longer needed. But Raze gives a benefit when doing that.
- Raze has some mid- to late-game utility, Ratcatcher doesn't.

i think my favorite part about Raze is that when you trash it, it becomes a sifting cantrip so you don't even reduce your hand size. I'm a big fan of Raze; not as strong as Forager but there are a lot of games where I would pick up 2 of them.

Mostly sort of agree with the middle of the pack here. Readying my pitchforks just in case people have managed to hype Page all the way to #1 though.

Alms is excellent - it really speeds up the game. It's effect is kind of neutral since it gives everyone the benefit "for free" but it's such a good card that totally changes how Dominion works.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2015, 12:06:00 pm »
0

It seems to me like Alms + Chapel should be pretty insane. Chapel is so good that people gladly go 2 or 3 turns without buying anything at all just to trash their entire hands. If Alms is on the board, those same turns now suddenly allow you to also gain, at worst, a Silver.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2015, 12:10:27 pm »
0

I see Alms as favouring engines that have lots of virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting).

Alms favors engines that have ONLY virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting).

i.e. Candlestick Maker

Maybe Caravan/Conspirator/Market?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2015, 12:10:40 pm »
0

I see Alms as favouring engines that have lots of virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting).

Alms favors engines that have ONLY virtual coin and some spare buys (and 4-cost or less cards worth getting).
Even if you're planning on adding treasure latter, Alms can still be useful for double-buys in the early game, as long as you have enough virtual coin for a single card and a +buy.  I've often done things like play a Woodcutter variant and buy a $2 card and Alms.  Basically, if there's enough virtual money to get a desirable card (and your engine relies on cards costing 4 or less), Alms rewards picking up a +Buy significantly earlier than you normally would.

It's not super-powerful, but it's a handy boost in the right engine.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2015, 03:31:37 pm »
+1

And it treasure less decks it's a workshop that costs a buy instead of an action and you can not gain+play it, so that's not really great either.

Correction: It's a workshop that costs a buy instead of a card and an action.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2015, 04:41:24 pm »
0

I like both Borrow and Alms a lot more than where they showed up, but they are both REALLY hard to rate properly.  Like, you're probably going to use them at some point in 95% of games they are in.  That is pretty significant!  But how important are they going to be in those games?  Alms I think often will be pretty relevant, while Borrow is less so.  Hard to say where exactly they should lie versus cards you're adding to your deck.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2015, 04:51:10 pm »
0

These events are tricky to rate. It will be obvious when Alms is the correct buy, so it's hard to credit outplaying your opponent(s) based on using Alms itself instead of the card you gained with it. That's not the case with Borrow.

I feel like the ranking for a card like Borrow would reflect on how often it's worth buying, but a card like Alms would undoubtedly be first if the rankings were based on gain/buy rate alone since you'd expect to buy it pretty much every game. I guess Alms should be ranked based on how often you'll want to skip playing treasures in order to use it's effect.

To me it seems the events have to be ranked based on different metrics than regular cards and those metrics vary from event to event. What does it really mean for an event to be strong?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2015, 05:10:51 pm »
+1

Interesting idea: Play +buy card, buy Mint, trashing all your treasures in play, Buy Alms (gain Silver or FG or whatever)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2015, 05:19:52 pm »
0

I think this might be an effect of many people not rating Adventures altogether. Percentage-wise most non adventurous cards will fare better than cards from Adventures, since Adventure density is higher at the top rather than at the bottom.

The whole reason percentages are used is to adjust for people who don't know the cards well enough to rate them all. It means that if you don't rate a specific expansion there's no disadvantage to it, since your result just isn't included when averaging that expansion's results.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2015, 06:05:40 pm »
+1

These events are tricky to rate. It will be obvious when Alms is the correct buy, so it's hard to credit outplaying your opponent(s) based on using Alms itself instead of the card you gained with it. That's not the case with Borrow.

I feel like the ranking for a card like Borrow would reflect on how often it's worth buying, but a card like Alms would undoubtedly be first if the rankings were based on gain/buy rate alone since you'd expect to buy it pretty much every game. I guess Alms should be ranked based on how often you'll want to skip playing treasures in order to use it's effect.

To me it seems the events have to be ranked based on different metrics than regular cards and those metrics vary from event to event. What does it really mean for an event to be strong?

I think it still works to consider the change in your overall win percentage if you don't have access to the event.  If you play a million games on random boards where you have exclusive access to Alms and your opponent doesn't, what happens to your win percentage?  Same question for Borrow instead of Alms.  I'd guess Alms is a lot better than Borrow when you consider it that way.  That means that Alms is contributing more to your win percentage than Borrow is.

There are probably cases where this way of looking at it doesn't fit with our intuitive understanding of card strength, but I don't think events are really different from cards this way.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2015, 08:16:24 pm »
+1

I find it interesting that Raze is below Ratcatcher apparently. I feel like Raze is stronger:

- it is a faster trasher. Ratcatcher needs two turn to take effect.
- Raze is a bit worse at trashing Copper, granted. I don't think that's huge.
- on the other hand, Raze is better for trashing Estates.
- both remove themselves from your deck when no longer needed. But Raze gives a benefit when doing that.
- Raze has some mid- to late-game utility, Ratcatcher doesn't.
Agreed, though I think Raze and Ratcatcher are very similar in value.  Raze is a very solid Estate trasher that removes itself.  Raze is not good at trashing Copper, Curses, and Ruins.  I would never buy Raze for Copper trashing and I would only buy it in response to heavy junking if there was no other option.  (However, having bought Raze for trashing Estates, I might trash a Copper if I drew it in a hand without Estates.)  Lookout is pretty comparable to Raze.  In both cases, you trash a card, discard a card from your deck, and end up with [hand-1] cards and net 0 actions.  The advantage of Lookout is that it can trash Coppers, Curses, and Ruins.  The advantage of Raze is that you have more cards to choose to trash from, and it can remove itself for benefit whenever you want to.

Ratcatcher is slow.  It misses your second reshuffle 7/12 times, as opposed to Raze's 2/12 (assuming no other card draw).  This problem never really goes away.  Like Raze and Lookout, Ratcatcher leaves you with [hand-1] cards and net 0 actions.  It can trash anything, like Lookout.  You can choose from 5 cards, which could be better or worse than Raze.  But, you don't get any deck filtering.  You can also wait until you find the Curse you want to trash.  However, with good draw or sifting, the junk might keep missing your starting hands!  Ratcatcher is especially poor against hand reduction attacks like Militia.

Ultimately, it comes down to how much you value Copper-trashing.  I'm meh on Copper trashing.  I want to trash my Estates in 90% of games.  I'll do it with Raze or Ratcatcher, if I have no better options.  Raze is better for this.  I only get excited about Copper trashing in the presence of certain really strong trashers (Spice Merchant and cards that can trash 2+ cards in one go).  Sure, I'll probably trash some Coppers with Ratcatcher once my Estates are gone.  But not many; Ratcatcher is too slow.

Bonus: Raze is better at trashing Rats than Ratcatcher!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 08:17:53 pm by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2015, 09:40:42 pm »
+1

People keep talking about how raze removes itself from your deck.  This is the exact same thing with ratcatcher.  The only difference is that you don't get the extra card's worth of sifting when you remove ratcatcher from your deck.  The fact that you can choose when it's effect takes place is also huge!  You can wait until you get that curse in your hand before you use it!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2015, 09:40:55 pm »
0

These events are tricky to rate. It will be obvious when Alms is the correct buy, so it's hard to credit outplaying your opponent(s) based on using Alms itself instead of the card you gained with it. That's not the case with Borrow.

I feel like the ranking for a card like Borrow would reflect on how often it's worth buying, but a card like Alms would undoubtedly be first if the rankings were based on gain/buy rate alone since you'd expect to buy it pretty much every game. I guess Alms should be ranked based on how often you'll want to skip playing treasures in order to use it's effect.

To me it seems the events have to be ranked based on different metrics than regular cards and those metrics vary from event to event. What does it really mean for an event to be strong?

I think it still works to consider the change in your overall win percentage if you don't have access to the event.  If you play a million games on random boards where you have exclusive access to Alms and your opponent doesn't, what happens to your win percentage?  Same question for Borrow instead of Alms.  I'd guess Alms is a lot better than Borrow when you consider it that way.  That means that Alms is contributing more to your win percentage than Borrow is.

There are probably cases where this way of looking at it doesn't fit with our intuitive understanding of card strength, but I don't think events are really different from cards this way.

I guess the weirdness for me comes from how they don't compete with stuff at the 0-cost mark. I guess Alms competes with a buy and Borrow with a card next turn. You can maybe grade them based on how often that exchange is worth making or how often it's worth using their effect instead of getting a 2-cost card. I guess they do compete when you have $2 in the case of Borrow and when you have $4 and 2 buys in the case of Alms by spending Treasure.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2015, 09:43:57 pm »
0

People keep talking about how raze removes itself from your deck.  This is the exact same thing with ratcatcher.  The only difference is that you don't get the extra card's worth of sifting when you remove ratcatcher from your deck.  The fact that you can choose when it's effect takes place is also huge!  You can wait until you get that curse in your hand before you use it!
With Raze I ask myself how often are you going to trash something costing more than Estate. For more expensive cards I'd rather trash-for-benefit on the level of Remodel.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2015, 09:56:55 pm »
0

People keep talking about how raze removes itself from your deck.  This is the exact same thing with ratcatcher.  The only difference is that you don't get the extra card's worth of sifting when you remove ratcatcher from your deck.  The fact that you can choose when it's effect takes place is also huge!  You can wait until you get that curse in your hand before you use it!
With Raze I ask myself how often are you going to trash something costing more than Estate. For more expensive cards I'd rather trash-for-benefit on the level of Remodel.
Granted.  I would rarely trash high-value cards with Raze.  But that's no different from Ratcatcher!  If Raze trashes an Estate, a Copper (because there was no Estate in hand), an Estate, and then itself, I'm pretty pleased.  It can generally trash those three cards faster than Ratcatcher can trash two junk cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2015, 06:07:59 am »
+1

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2015, 06:58:42 am »
+2

As expected of Stonemason! It's still underrated though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2015, 07:19:03 am »
0

People keep talking about how raze removes itself from your deck.  This is the exact same thing with ratcatcher.  The only difference is that you don't get the extra card's worth of sifting when you remove ratcatcher from your deck.  The fact that you can choose when it's effect takes place is also huge!  You can wait until you get that curse in your hand before you use it!
With Raze I ask myself how often are you going to trash something costing more than Estate. For more expensive cards I'd rather trash-for-benefit on the level of Remodel.
Granted.  I would rarely trash high-value cards with Raze.  But that's no different from Ratcatcher!  If Raze trashes an Estate, a Copper (because there was no Estate in hand), an Estate, and then itself, I'm pretty pleased.  It can generally trash those three cards faster than Ratcatcher can trash two junk cards.
Yeah that makes sense. I do think Ratcatcher is safer to get in multiples when you have spare $2 to spare. Even with multiple Ratcatcher, you can always trash cards from your hand when most convenient. I guess that's how Ratcatcher is supposed to be used anyway. Only being able to trash at the start of turn is a definite weakness though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2015, 08:04:10 am »
+2

I think Stonemason is fine where it is now. It's not better than Chapel and the Travellers are quite hard to compare to the other two costs, so I see it as a second place for Stonemason.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2015, 08:15:57 am »
0

Hamlet is definitely better than Fool's Gold, in that it's more often useful. I skip Fool's Gold way more often than I skip Hamlet. But it's pretty close.

I think Stonemason is more often critical than Peasant, which can be a bit slow for a lot of games. Page at 2 isn't insane but I think it will fall in future years.

Ratcatcher I think is a bit overrated. It's nice how it doesn't really impact your deck, but it's often difficult to decide what you want to trash as your turn starts.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2015, 08:21:54 am »
0

As expected of Stonemason! It's still underrated though.
Indeed, I have it at #2 as well.

In my voting, Peasant is at #3 and Page at #4. I think it's easier to upgrade Peasants, that's why I voted it that way around.
Any comment on Peasant vs. Page by someone who has more experience with Adventures?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 08:24:19 am by assemble_me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2015, 08:26:34 am »
+2

Hamlet is definitely better than Fool's Gold, in that it's more often useful. I skip Fool's Gold way more often than I skip Hamlet. But it's pretty close.

That does not mean Hamlet is better though. Of course you don't skip Hamlet often; it's a cantrip. But FG impacts the game way more when you do get it, and thus it deserves to be above Hamlet.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2015, 08:28:39 am »
+4

I put peasant above page. Teacher and champion are both crazy, but teacher adds more to your deck since you get access to four tokens. It also tends to be easier to get. Disciple and soldier are also really great cards. (Soldier depends on the board) I think page is slightly less good since it has to add treasure to your deck while upgrading and also runs the risk of failing due to warrior clashing.

Both are very close, mind. It doesn't bug me one is ranked over the other.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2015, 08:29:16 am »
0

As expected of Stonemason! It's still underrated though.
Indeed, I have it at #2 as well.

In my voting, Peasant is at #3 and Page at #4. I think it's easier to upgrade Peasants, that's why I voted it that way around.
Any comment on Peasant vs. Page by someone who has more experience with Adventures?

My experience is that Champion is crazy insane.

Anyway, SM is really, really good. The travellers are also really good. I don't think Page will drop in future years, but Peasant might and swap places with SM. Anyway, it is good to see it ranked where it is. I have no idea how it got ranked so low last time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #88 on: November 06, 2015, 08:48:39 am »
0

By the way, I ranked both Raze and Ratcatcher 5 and 6. They are really good trashers. I am surprised they are ranked so low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2015, 08:56:31 am »
+1

I don't have much experience with the Traveller's but what I have and my gut instinct says that while Champion is better than Teacher, Disciple is much, much, much better than Hero, which IMO might give Peasant the edge. Like, if the Peasant line stopped at Disciple, I think it would still be one of the best cards in the game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2015, 09:01:46 am »
0

I put peasant above page. Teacher and champion are both crazy, but teacher adds more to your deck since you get access to four tokens. It also tends to be easier to get. Disciple and soldier are also really great cards. (Soldier depends on the board) I think page is slightly less good since it has to add treasure to your deck while upgrading and also runs the risk of failing due to warrior clashing.

Both are very close, mind. It doesn't bug me one is ranked over the other.
Champion is harder to get but at least isn't a reserve card like teacher. The thing going for champion is it affects all cards, some events take away the purpose of teacher and it isn't a reserve. The thing going for teacher is that it can place 4 different tokens on piles(that have to be different) and it is easier to get.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2015, 09:02:37 am »
+1

I think in 2P, Champion is not as hard to get as people think.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2015, 09:05:55 am »
+2

Champion > Teacher
Hero < Disciple
Warrior > Fugitive
Treasure Hunter < Soldier
Page (qua card) < Peasant (qua card)

Overall, Teacher is easier to get, though.

Specific things:
TH is great in Feodum games.
Soldier is bananas in Attack-heavy games, particularly with Duration Attacks.
Disciple gives KC a run for its money as the best TR variant
The only point of Fugitive is to get to Disciple more quickly
Warrior can be incredibly oppressive if you keep a bunch of Pages in your deck.  Hitting your opponent's TH or Warrior before they can get Hero is basically game-winning.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #93 on: November 06, 2015, 09:07:25 am »
+2

I've played quite a lot of Adventures (2-4 player games) and I think the Travellers are a bit overrated.

The first thing to realize is that they're costed like Chapel.  By and large, you want to buy one copy of a Traveller and you want it in your opening buy.  So, like Chapel, the Travellers are often going to cost you three coins and an opening buy.  (Caveat: I have bought multiple Peasants for multiple Disciples.  I think this is a reasonable approach on some boards.)

Then there is the opportunity cost.  Page and Peasant have terrible on-play effects.  Herbalist and Pearl Diver are rightly at the bottom of the rankings, and Peasant and Page are strictly worse.  They're even worse than that, because you need to play them on turns 3 or 4 (Herbalist and Pearl Diver are better in the mid-game) - and you probably payed three coins for them.  Soldier is a poor card.  How realistic is it to have another attack in play on turns 5-7, when you play it?  You would need an action splitter or Urchin.  So, it's terminal silver and an attack that probably does nothing (it might do something in multiplayer games).  Treasure Hunter is a really powerful Silver gainer (especially in multiplayer), but it increases decksize, which is detrimental to Travellers.  So, it isn't until turn ~8-12 that you begin to get positive value out of your opening three-coin purchase.

Then there's the speed to get to the good stuff.  You need to see your Traveller five times before you hit the jackpot.  Without support, but also without ever missing your shuffle, you should expect to see Champion/Teacher around turn 15-17.  And Teacher does nothing until the following turn.  There are a lot of kingdoms where that is just too slow.  If it ever misses your shuffle (very likely without support), you won't see Champion/Teacher until turn 18 at the earliest.  Forget about it!  Thankfully, the Peasant line has a fantastic penultimate card in Disciple.  When I buy Peasant, I often have Disciple as a goal.  Exchanging for Teacher is an option if everything is going well.  Hero is not a great consolation prize (better with Bank or Platinum).

With the right support, the Travellers can be fantastic, for sure.  Deck accelerators like Ironmonger and Spice Merchant synergize very well.  Alternate VP lengthens the game, which makes it very likely that Champion/Teacher will get great value.  All said, the Travellers are great cards.  But so are Stonemason, Hamlet, Squire, Courtyard, and Fools Gold.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #94 on: November 06, 2015, 09:11:26 am »
+5

By and large, you want to buy one copy of a Traveller and you want it in your opening buy.

Hahahahahahahahahaha no.

You want to grab as many Disciples, Soldiers and Warriors as you can get your grubby little mitts on.  With Warrior, you don't mind just having a bunch of un-exchanged Pages in your deck, and Peasant can be crucial as a +Buy.  You can also throw tokens on Page.

Don't think about Travellers as "oh, I want Champion/Teacher, I only need one, I'll buy one Page/Peasant."  Think of the upgrades as Kingdom cards, just with an alternate cost - instead of costing their listed price, they cost and time.  If you want more Disciples, snag some more Peasants and exchange them.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #95 on: November 06, 2015, 09:14:11 am »
0

It's like you say deck accelerators help. But, you mention things like Ironmonger and Spice Merchant. With good to great trashing, the travellers become much better and easier to get quickly. And, why wouldn't you buy them on your opening buys even for $3, and about 50% of the time you will pay $2 because you are opening 5/2 (although I swear I open 3/4 more often).


The thing is the impact they have on the game which is huge. Champion's impact is bigger than KC. Teacher is probably even bigger than KC as well when you get down to it. Peasant can turn into a TR that is also a gainer. With what games I have played, I would say they are hardly overrated. I have seen games where an engine was not possible at all suddenly come to life. Like every time these cards are on the board, the possibility of an engine is very strong even if you don't have any normal engine components.

PPE: 1

Champion practically warps the whole game around it. You can't ignore the travellers if they are on the board. If you do, you'll lose. Usually, what makes a card good is if it is a must buy which the travllers are.

Also, minus the whole travller exchange thing, Herbalist and Peasant are almost the same card. The money top-decking thing of Herbalist is super-weak and you rarely ever want to top-deck your treasures. Hell, in the Ruins section I mention how Herbalist and Ruined Market are almost the same card, and it's true.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 09:16:20 am by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #96 on: November 06, 2015, 09:23:33 am »
+1

I think there are boards that are not conducive to travellers, but they are rare.

Turn 15-17 doesn't seem like a reasonable turn estimate for getting Teacher/Champion to me. With accelerators you should probably expect 10-12, but there's a lot of variance.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #97 on: November 06, 2015, 09:37:38 am »
0

It's like you say deck accelerators help. But, you mention things like Ironmonger and Spice Merchant. With good to great trashing, the travellers become much better and easier to get quickly. And, why wouldn't you buy them on your opening buys even for $3, and about 50% of the time you will pay $2 because you are opening 5/2 (although I swear I open 3/4 more often).
You only have a 16.7% chance of opening 2/5 or 5/2...

Deck thinning helps, but terminal trashing is a risk.  Peasant, Soldier, Warrior, and Hero are all terminal.  You need to play them.  By the time you get Warrior, trashing is less important and you might have some action splitters.  But the Peasant line and terminal trashing has more significant antisynergy.

The thing is the impact they have on the game which is huge. Champion's impact is bigger than KC. Teacher is probably even bigger than KC as well when you get down to it. Peasant can turn into a TR that is also a gainer. With what games I have played, I would say they are hardly overrated. I have seen games where an engine was not possible at all suddenly come to life. Like every time these cards are on the board, the possibility of an engine is very strong even if you don't have any normal engine components.
Champion and Teacher are probably better than King's Court.  They also cost a LOT in time and opportunity cost.  You can't buy Champion for 7 coins.  If you could, that would be a better card than Page.

Concerning the last point: I'm skeptical.  In those games you've played, did everyone invest in Travellers?  If so, it's not surprising that the game slowed down and Champion/Teacher got huge value.  Travellers are better if everyone invests in them.  On boards where "an engine was not possible", I would like to see a Traveller strategy compete with big money.

Also, minus the whole travller exchange thing, Herbalist and Peasant are almost the same card. The money top-decking thing of Herbalist is super-weak and you rarely ever want to top-deck your treasures. Hell, in the Ruins section I mention how Herbalist and Ruined Market are almost the same card, and it's true.
I would be very unlikely to buy an Herbalist unless I expected to get some value out of the treasure top-decking.  Then again, I find the concept of buying Ruined Market incredulous.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #98 on: November 06, 2015, 09:54:56 am »
0

I'm confident that Coin of the Realm will be higher in the next year's list. A card costing $2 that is comparable with Fishing Village is bound to be very powerful. Other than that, I have the same disagreements as I've had with the previous rankings - cantrips like Hamlet, Pawn and Haven are overrated. They just don't do anything really meaningful most of the time. Sure, if the Hamlet is the only village, I'll sigh and force myself to buy them. And of course if I don't have anything else to buy, I'll pick up one. But I still don't consider any of those three strong.

OK I've done complaining about Hamlet now. I guess I'll never learn to stop hating it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #99 on: November 06, 2015, 10:31:06 am »
0

I'm confident that Coin of the Realm will be higher in the next year's list. A card costing $2 that is comparable with Fishing Village is bound to be very powerful. Other than that, I have the same disagreements as I've had with the previous rankings - cantrips like Hamlet, Pawn and Haven are overrated. They just don't do anything really meaningful most of the time. Sure, if the Hamlet is the only village, I'll sigh and force myself to buy them. And of course if I don't have anything else to buy, I'll pick up one. But I still don't consider any of those three strong.

OK I've done complaining about Hamlet now. I guess I'll never learn to stop hating it.

I dislike hamlet too (because it involves too much clicking!) but it's without a doubt one of the best villages, because of the +buy and the price, which allow you to easily have a bunch of them by the 3rd or 4th shuffle. There are so many combos that mitigate the drawback that it's not even crazy to prefer it to Worker's Village on some boards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2015, 10:39:08 am »
0

Hamlet is definitely better than Fool's Gold, in that it's more often useful. I skip Fool's Gold way more often than I skip Hamlet. But it's pretty close.

That does not mean Hamlet is better though. Of course you don't skip Hamlet often; it's a cantrip. But FG impacts the game way more when you do get it, and thus it deserves to be above Hamlet.

FG is more dramatic - it's either a huge effect on the game or a minimal one - but Hamlet is just so really good, and has an impact on more boards than Fool's Gold does. Maybe I've just played too many Tunnel, Menagerie, Watchtower, etc. games where Hamlet availability and winning the split made all the difference.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2015, 11:08:25 am »
+1

I ranked Page over Chapel. I hope I'm wrong about its power, but I am worried about Page-Warrior pins.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2015, 11:31:25 am »
0

I ranked Page over Chapel. I hope I'm wrong about its power, but I am worried about Page-Warrior pins.

Very, very few Kingdoms have only and cards, and there's always Gold.  It's not that bad of a pin.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2015, 11:55:06 am »
0

I ranked Page over Chapel. I hope I'm wrong about its power, but I am worried about Page-Warrior pins.

Very, very few Kingdoms have only and cards, and there's always Gold.  It's not that bad of a pin.

I hope you're right.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2015, 12:31:35 pm »
+13

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2015, 01:02:28 pm »
+15



I don't think you need to worry about getting bad advice from Adviser here... he's just going to be trashed by Warrior anyway.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #106 on: November 06, 2015, 01:39:59 pm »
+11

To me it seems the events have to be ranked based on different metrics than regular cards and those metrics vary from event to event. What does it really mean for an event to be strong?

This is why I supported them having their own separate list. Comparing Dominion cards is already comparing apples and oranges, but comparing cards and Events is comparing apples and otters.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #107 on: November 06, 2015, 02:26:17 pm »
+4


To me it seems the events have to be ranked based on different metrics than regular cards and those metrics vary from event to event. What does it really mean for an event to be strong?

I disagree... for an event to be strong means the exact same thing that it means for a card to be strong: "How often is it a good idea to buy it." Or as LastFootnote says, "If your opponent weren't allowed to buy one card/event, and you weren't allowed to buy a different card/event, who would be at a disadvantage because of it?"
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2015, 02:40:08 pm »
0

The Best - Cards (Part 3/3)

#7 ▼1 Hamlet (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 76.4% ▼4.3pp / Unweighted Average: 76.3% / Median: 81.0% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.9%

Hamlet lost this year one rank again. But it would be even 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted only 7 times below 50%.

Sorry, one of those was me!  I just realized that I screwed up some of my lists by using both the ranking and comparison interfaces.  Somehow, Hamlet ended up in the bottom 5, when it should have been in the top 10.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2015, 07:45:20 pm »
0

I'm in the camp of hamlet being a good card. I think I voted that higher than courtyard.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2015, 08:42:21 pm »
+1

I'm in the camp of Haven being a good card. I don't understand why so many people hate it. It gets synergizing cards to line up with each other, if you don't need all your coin this turn it saves a treasure for next turn, it gives you a six card hand next turn, and it make victory cards miss the reshufle. This is useful stuff. It should be at least higher than Pawn.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 08:43:33 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #111 on: November 09, 2015, 07:47:07 am »
0

I'm in the camp of both Haven and Hamlet being good cards, although I think everyone agrees on the latter. Still I expected it to be higher on the list.

What baffles me a bit is Raze at #15. Raze is probably my favourite card from Adventures and, although I might be overestimating it a bit, I ranked it at #3. Is that so crazy?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #112 on: November 09, 2015, 09:44:01 am »
+7

This is fun, so I'll post where my rankings differ from the group's by 5 or more ranks -- there was a good amount of noise but I suppose that arbitrary cutoff is where I'd say my opinion is significantly different than the majority.

Borrow I ranked 3rd, it's 16th here
Save I ranked 4th, it's 18th here.


Borrow is ridiculous. I feel like you're criminally underrating this event. No longer do you have to put Silver in your deck just to hit $5, you can open with that fiver and be done with it!

Save, well, I'm willing to say I overrated it, but it's still waaaaaay better than 18th place. Borrow and Save make pretty much every strategy better, and they are both high-skill events. I will be shocked if they don't skyrocket for the next edition of the cards lists once people get to play with them more (and watch Stef and MQ play with them). There is ridiculous power here that I feel like most people just aren't seeing.

Coin of the Realm I ranked 5th, it's 13th here.

This has already been discussed some here, so this is just me weighing in. Coin is really really stinking good. It's way better as your village than anything else imaginable if you're building a village+terminal draw deck. Like, super-way better.

Haven I ranked 13th, it's 22nd here.

There has been some discussion on this already, so yeah I'm weighing in again. I don't really feel like the arguments for saying Haven is bad are all that compelling. Sure, you rarely want more than two of them in a deck, but its effect is really really good. If anything, I'm worried I underrated it.

Crossroads I ranked 22nd, it's 12th here.

Wow, I think I underrated Crossroads. Not sure where that came from. Maybe 12th is too high but I dunno, it's probably close. This has very little to do with a comparison to Coin, but is more along the lines of it just being a better card than 22nd in this ranking.

Embargo I ranked 23rd, it's 28th here.

A small difference, but I like where I put Embargo. It's really useful for a lot of things that people have just not thought about at all. It's not as good in mirror matches which tend to be more common among players here, but even then, sticking an Embargo on the only village or the only draw if you're ahead/behind can be a big move that I think many people overlook.

Alms I ranked 26th, it's 14th here.

Another one that has been discussed. I admit that Events are hard to compare to cards since the opportunity cost is much less (one buy plus whatever cost is usually less than a card and sometimes an action). I'm pretty happy with where I put it -- when it comes into play it's usually only a slight benefit. This one probably suffers the most from peoples' differing definitions on what makes a card "good" in terms of this list.

EDIT: Putting in my full rankings for reference and for funsies.

Code: [Select]
1.) Chapel   [X]
2.) Page   [X]
3.) Borrow   [X]
4.) Save   [X]
5.) Coin of the Realm   [X]
6.) Peasant   [X]
7.) Courtyard   [X]
8.) Stonemason   [X]
9.) Lighthouse   [X]
10.) Hamlet   [X]
11.) Squire   [X]
12.) Ratcatcher   [X]
13.) Haven   [X]
14.) Candlestick Maker   [X]
15.) Raze   [X]
16.) Native Village   [X]
17.) Cellar   [X]
18.) Travelling Fair   [X]
19.) Vagrant   [X]
20.) Moat   [X]
21.) Fool's Gold   [X]
22.) Crossroads   [X]
23.) Embargo   [X]
24.) Pawn   [X]
25.) Poor House   [X]
26.) Alms   [X]
27.) Scouting Party   [X]
28.) Pearl Diver   [X]
29.) Beggar   [X]
30.) Herbalist   [X]
31.) Quest   [X]
32.) Secret Chamber   [X]
33.) Duchess   [X]
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 10:49:21 am by AdamH »
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #113 on: November 09, 2015, 10:52:49 am »
+3

Really, you have Peasant under CotR?  We can debate relative positions of Events, but surely both Travellers are in the top 5 here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #114 on: November 09, 2015, 10:56:25 am »
0

Really, you have Peasant under CotR?  We can debate relative positions of Events, but surely both Travellers are in the top 5 here.

Uhh, yeah I do have that there. As previously mentioned maybe Save shouldn't be that high so I'd be happy saying Peasant is number 5 here. I could also make an argument that it should be lower than 5.

But yeah it's pretty close. I mean, they're right next to each other. Peasant is SUPER slow and has a HUGE opportunity cost, and Teacher is SUPER slow and its payload isn't very explosive or fast. Coin is really really good, it's a much lower opportunity cost and can make a lot of decks much, much better.

I don't think we disagree all that much, really.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #115 on: November 09, 2015, 10:58:47 am »
+3

Really, you have Peasant under CotR?  We can debate relative positions of Events, but surely both Travellers are in the top 5 here.

Uhh, yeah I do have that there. As previously mentioned maybe Save shouldn't be that high so I'd be happy saying Peasant is number 5 here. I could also make an argument that it should be lower than 5.

But yeah it's pretty close. I mean, they're right next to each other. Peasant is SUPER slow and has a HUGE opportunity cost, and Teacher is SUPER slow and its payload isn't very explosive or fast. Coin is really really good, it's a much lower opportunity cost and can make a lot of decks much, much better.

I don't think we disagree all that much, really.

I honestly think Page is slower than Peasant.  Warrior can be devastating in the right situations, but TH and Hero slow things down, whereas Fugitive and Disciple speed things up, and Soldier can give an insane amount of age.  But Teacher certainly is more finicky to deal with than Champion, yes.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #116 on: November 09, 2015, 11:03:02 am »
0

Really, you have Peasant under CotR?  We can debate relative positions of Events, but surely both Travellers are in the top 5 here.

Uhh, yeah I do have that there. As previously mentioned maybe Save shouldn't be that high so I'd be happy saying Peasant is number 5 here. I could also make an argument that it should be lower than 5.

But yeah it's pretty close. I mean, they're right next to each other. Peasant is SUPER slow and has a HUGE opportunity cost, and Teacher is SUPER slow and its payload isn't very explosive or fast. Coin is really really good, it's a much lower opportunity cost and can make a lot of decks much, much better.

I don't think we disagree all that much, really.

I honestly think Page is slower than Peasant.  Warrior can be devastating in the right situations, but TH and Hero slow things down, whereas Fugitive and Disciple speed things up, and Soldier can give an insane amount of age.  But Teacher certainly is more finicky to deal with than Champion, yes.

Once again, I think we mostly agree.

I detailed this in my Adventures talk, I think this was before you were on the line. Teacher is much more finicky to deal with than Champion and this is what I'm talking about here. Given that, I'd say Page/Champion is worth the opportunity cost much more often than Peasant/Teacher. But I think we agreed on that too? Yeah OK. I mean you ranked Page higher than Peasant, right?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #117 on: November 09, 2015, 11:10:25 am »
0

I think Champion is better than Teacher, but I believe I rated Peasant better overall.  Soldier and Disciple are just too good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #118 on: November 09, 2015, 12:09:06 pm »
+1

I admit that there was lots of speculation involved in my rankings of Adventures cards/events. I have Coin of the Realm at 10 and Borrow just below it at 11. I think I really have to bump up Save from where I have it now. I now think it solves the issues with Haven, which is that you don't have a guarantee that you can use Haven's effect when you need it. Maybe it the start of the turn and you don't know what to set aside yet, or you can only afford to set aside a VP card then wait for Haven to be cleanup up before getting another shot at it doing something. With Save you can be sure to use its effect when it benefits you, and you have lots of information during the buy phase on what to save.

I still have Courtyard in my top 5, just below Chapel and the Travellers. I'm telling you Courtyard stands the test of time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #119 on: November 09, 2015, 12:45:15 pm »
+23

Chapel and the Travellers

#DominionBandNames
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #120 on: November 09, 2015, 07:19:10 pm »
0

I don't see why Hamlet is so good. With another village, it's trash. It has the issue like Spy and Pawn where you make long, irrelevent decisions. And without Draw-to-X or Tunnel or some big synergy, Hamlet really doesn't look good. Sorta like a beefed up Vagrant.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #121 on: November 09, 2015, 08:28:07 pm »
+4

I don't see why Hamlet is so good. With another village, it's trash. It has the issue like Spy and Pawn where you make long, irrelevent decisions. And without Draw-to-X or Tunnel or some big synergy, Hamlet really doesn't look good. Sorta like a beefed up Vagrant.
As long as you have good draw, Hamlet is a boss card. Hamlet + good draw + practically any source of coin is a simple but strong engine, with the extra bonus that Hamlet's choices mean you practically always have exactly the bits of the engine you need at that point - so if you don't need an extra Buy, you don't have to have it, but it's there when you need it; similarly if you *have* picked up all the spare Actions you need, then you can just shift into +Buy mode instead. And I don't think the choices are "irrelevant" as much as you think. Spy definitely has that issue, but Hamlet and Pawn are both important *because* they let you choose such a variety of outcomes, and if you think you're always making the same decision then you're probably using them wrong.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #122 on: November 09, 2015, 10:39:13 pm »
0

It has the issue like Spy and Pawn where you make long, irrelevent decisions.

I disagree that the decisions are irrelevant, and I don't know what's relevant about the decisions being long. Being slow to resolve does not make a card any worse.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #123 on: November 12, 2015, 12:48:52 pm »
+1

Should I scan in Base, Cornucopia and Envoy?

Yes, please do this! Especially if you have a copy of Base that has the bright yellow-colored Coin symbols of later sets, rather than the uglier brown ones.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #124 on: November 12, 2015, 01:08:36 pm »
+2

Should I scan in Base, Cornucopia and Envoy?

Yes, please do this! Especially if you have a copy of Base that has the bright yellow-colored Coin symbols of later sets, rather than the uglier brown ones.

I'll probably do that tonight - I'm supposed to get Summon in the mail today.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #125 on: November 12, 2015, 07:13:19 pm »
+6

Unfortunately, my Base Set cards are... well-loved, so it's going to take some effort cleaning all the scratches and lint, but here's new Cellar compared to old:

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