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Author Topic: F.DS Nomic 2 - Game Started, Jimmmmm's turn  (Read 4554 times)

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Twistedarcher

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F.DS Nomic 2 - Game Started, Jimmmmm's turn
« on: November 03, 2015, 06:21:53 pm »

Players:
Scott_pilgrim
Voltaire
Faust
Jimmmmm - Current Player
Twistedarcher - Scribe
Sudgy
Chairs
Jack Rudd

Ranking Points:
Scott_pilgrim - 0
Voltaire - 0
Faust - 0
Jimmmmm - 0
Twistedarcher - 0
Sudgy - 0
Chairs - 0
Jack Rudd - 0

Section 1: Player conduct

101. All players must always abide by all the rules currently in effect, in the form in which they are currently in effect.


Section 2: Rules and rule changes

201. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules permits it.

202. If two or more rules conflict with each other, the one with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

203. A rule change is the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a rule.

204. No rule change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it. No rule change may have retroactive application.

205. Each proposed rule change shall be given a number for reference. The number for enacted rules shall be the next successive integer (with the first number in each section ending with 01) in the section the active player deems appropriate. This need not be a section currently in use. If the section the proposed rule change will be in does not have a name, the active player shall name the section as part of the proposal. The section will receive that name if the proposal is approved.

206. If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. The first time a rule is amended, .1 is added to the end of its number. Any subsequent time it is amended or transmuted, the number after the point is increased by 1.

207. When a rules change is approved, any part of it inside square brackets takes immediate effect, and then is removed along with the square brackets.

Section 3: Turns

301. Players take turns in player order, returning to the top of the list when necessary. The player whose turn it is currently is the active player. When the active player’s turn ends, the next player’s turn starts immediately.

302. In a turn, the active player may submit up to two draft proposals and one final proposal, in that order.

303. Once the active player has submitted a final proposal, each player may vote. Players cast votes by typing xxx Vote: Yes or xxx Vote: No in the game thread, where xxx is the proposal number. Before the turn is over, players may change their vote. Only the most recent vote by each player is valid.

304. A turn is over only when a player who is eligible to do so declares it to be over. The current player may end the turn at any time. Any other player may end the turn if one of the following is true:
1) More than 48 hours have passed since the start of the turn and no draft or final proposal has been submitted,
2) More than 48 hours have passed since the last draft or final proposal, or
3) A final proposal has been submitted and a majority of players are voting the same way.
Any rule which prevents players from ending the turn takes precedence over this.

305. At the end of a turn in which a final proposal was submitted, it is approved if a majority of players were voting Yes when the turn ended, or if the turn lasted more than 48 hours after the final proposal was submitted, and more players were voting Yes than No when the turn ended. When a proposal is approved, the rule change takes effect immediately.


Section 4: Joining and leaving the game

401. A new player may join the game by posting /in in the game thread. If a final proposal has not been submitted in the current turn, they join the game immediately. Otherwise, they join the game at the end of the current turn. Either way, they are placed before the current active player in the player order.

402. A player may leave the game at any time by posting /out in the game thread. They are immediately removed from the game and no longer subject to any rules within.


Section 5: Roles

501. Each role described in this section must be occupied in order for any player to end a turn.

502. A player who has a role may vacate that role at any time. If this occurs, or if a player with a role leaves the game, the role goes to the first player to volunteer for it in the game thread.

503. The Scribe is responsible for keeping public documentation for the current ruleset, all previous rule changes, and all other publicly known gamestate information.

Section 6: Ranking

601. If any player makes a proposal that gets accepted, they gain one ranking point. If any player fails to make a proposal during their turn, they will lose one ranking point (negative numbers are allowed). All players will be ranked according to the number of ranking points they have, with the largest number going first. Ties are allowed. The current ranking along with the ranking points of each player are posted by the Scribe after each turn.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 05:00:13 pm by Twistedarcher »
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Twistedarcher

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2015, 06:24:50 pm »

Draft rules, please comment on them so we can hopefully get the game started sooner rather than later! Rules numbers are the same from the previous ruleset, should get renumbered for the beginning of the game.

Thoughts: Judgement feels like it should be dealt with in game, rather than pre-game, although I know there were some problems with it last game.

Went with majority voting from the start, but we can start with unanimous voting required also.

Starts out needing 100 points to win, and keeping the dice roles intact, although I expect it to get removed. Could remove this pregame if everyone wants.

Got rid of mutable/unmutable rules.

Thought about removing #213 but I feel like it might be a key rule needed to keep the game in check, thoughts would be appreciated

Rules:

101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect.

103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment of a new rule, repeal of an existing rule, or amendment of an existing rule.

104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.

105. In order to be adopted, a rule-change must receive a "Yes" vote from the majority of players.

107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.

111. If a rule-change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule-changes compounded or is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is otherwise of questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable time must be allowed for this debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and, unless the Judge has been asked to do so, also decides the time to end debate and vote.

113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.

201. Playing order will be determined randomly, players taking one whole turn apiece. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.

202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) throwing one six-sided die once and adding the number of points on its face to one's score.

205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

207. Each player always has exactly one vote.

208. The winner is the first player to achieve 100 (positive) points.

209. At no time may there be more than 25 rules.

211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

212. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement for the purposes of this rule may be created by the insistence of any player. This process is called invoking Judgment.

When Judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of a majority of the other players.

The Judge's Judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a team-mate.

Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.

New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.

213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 06:29:11 pm by Twistedarcher »
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Twistedarcher

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2015, 06:26:59 pm »

Also if some of these changes are too much, and things we should deal with during the game and not pre-game, we can put them back in and deal with them. I just want to avoid a situation similar to the last game where Liopoil arguably won on the second turn due to a crappy ruleset and not anyone else's fault.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 06:29:34 pm by Twistedarcher »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2015, 06:29:57 pm »

/in
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2015, 06:32:01 pm »

Doesn't #213 make it so that the first player to break the game wins?  That's not necessarily a bad thing, just making sure I understand it correctly.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2015, 06:32:51 pm »

I would like to counter this proposal with my own proposed ruleset and see what people think. Should get it done today.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2015, 06:33:33 pm »

I would like to counter this proposal with my own proposed ruleset and see what people think. Should get it done today.

Or rather what TA thinks, since he's opening the game.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2015, 06:34:53 pm »

Doesn't #213 make it so that the first player to break the game wins?  That's not necessarily a bad thing, just making sure I understand it correctly.

Yes, at least at the start of the game. Like everything, you can change it any time.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2015, 06:49:28 pm »

A couple things I would change:

1. Get rid of rule 209, or at least change it to made rules.  I think it was trying to make you make your established rules immutable, but we don't have immutable rules.

2. Make a way for people to start playing in the middle of the game.  There was talk about this last game, and I think it would be best to start with it.

Also, are you wanting to play with the idea being you need to make the most complicated intricate ruleset ever, or just trying to make a game with the rules of Nomic to start with?  This was a major point of disagreement in the first one.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Jack Rudd

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2015, 11:23:30 am »

I'm mostly a substantive rather than procedural player: my idea with Nomic is that it be used to create an interesting game, rather than trying to tie the ruleset up in knots.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2015, 08:40:37 am »

I like that set of rules. Seems clear and capable of generating good stuff.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2015, 12:37:18 pm »

/in.

I'm probably more of a procedural player, wanting to win by virtue of pretzeling the rules. I've never actually played Nomic except maybe (and I don't remember for sure) I may have participated in the last f.ds Nomic.

Twistedarcher

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2015, 03:10:28 pm »

Works for me. 501 seems useless now since it's superseded by 304, but other than that I don't see any issues.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2015, 03:23:34 pm »

Works for me. 501 seems useless now since it's superseded by 304, but other than that I don't see any issues.

304 gives precedence to 501.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2015, 03:26:29 pm »

Works for me. 501 seems useless now since it's superseded by 304, but other than that I don't see any issues.

No it doesn't,  because rule 304 explicitly allows itself to be superseded by rules that prevent the ending of a turn.

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2015, 03:30:37 pm »

Oh, duh. OK I like these rules, if no one protests let's start tonight.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2015, 03:32:12 pm »

I thought about putting a "restriction overrules permission" rule, but figured we can add that if it comes up.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2015, 03:34:53 pm »

Has anyone thought about a better wording for 204?
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2015, 04:47:35 pm »

Let's start!
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2015, 06:21:20 pm »

I had 202 twice - fixed.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2015, 06:30:38 pm »

Another idea is making it so that you can vote to kick people out.  Make it a unanimous vote of everybody who can post within 48 hours or something so that we don't have to worry about multiple people being gone.

I think I'll play, but I'm really busy next week.  Is that okay with you guys?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2015, 06:34:32 pm »

Another idea is making it so that you can vote to kick people out.  Make it a unanimous vote of everybody who can post within 48 hours or something so that we don't have to worry about multiple people being gone.

I think I'll play, but I'm really busy next week.  Is that okay with you guys?
It's fine with me. We can start you off at the bottom of the turn order.
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2015, 06:44:36 pm »

Another idea is making it so that you can vote to kick people out.  Make it a unanimous vote of everybody who can post within 48 hours or something so that we don't have to worry about multiple people being gone.

I think I'll play, but I'm really busy next week.  Is that okay with you guys?
It's fine with me. We can start you off at the bottom of the turn order.

Or he can just end his turn when it comes around.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2015, 06:58:58 pm »

Started the game, because we can debate everything else in the game! Scott, you have the first turn starting now.
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Re: F.DS Nomic 2 - Game Started, Scott_pilgrim's turn
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2015, 11:42:55 pm »

Whoa, I'm going first.  Okay, how about defining a win condition for everyone?  Like, the first player to 100 points wins.  And we can figure out how people score points later.  We can have a new section in the rules for win conditions I guess since it seems important enough to have its own section (and we might add more stuff to it later), and it doesn't really fit anywhere else.

(Draft:)
Quote
At the time this rule is passed, each player will have his score set to 0.  (Saying that a player's score is x is equivalent to saying that that player has x victory points, or x VP.)  If, at any time, a player's score is greater than or equal to 100, the game ends immediately and that player wins.  If two or more players simultaneously reach 100 or more VP, the player with the highest score wins.  If there are two or more players tied for the highest score (and both/all are greater than or equal to 100), the game does NOT end, and continues until this is no longer the case.  Scores cannot be changed unless another rule allows for them to change.

Sort of a lot going on here, I wasn't expecting to have that much when I started writing.  Summary:
1. Player's scores default to 0.
2. The first player to 100+ VP wins.
3. Ties are broken by who has the most points.
4. If there is still a tie, gameplay continues until the tie is broken.
5. Scores can't change unless a rule allows them to.
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