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Author Topic: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact  (Read 2307 times)

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Gubump

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Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« on: October 29, 2015, 06:40:32 pm »
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Painting: (Version 4)
$1
When you play this, you may gain a copy of a card you have in play that is not a Painting. If you don't, this is worth $2.
Cost: $5
Treasure

Painting: (Version 3)
$1
When you play this, you may gain a copy of a card you have in play. You may not gain an Artifact this way.
Cost: $5
Treasure

Painting: (Version 2)
$1
When you play this, you may name a card other than Painting. If you have at most as many Paintings in play as copies of that card, gain a copy of the named card.
Cost: $5
Treasure

Artifact: (Version 1)
$1
When you play this, you may gain a copy of a card that you have more copies of in play than you have gained this turn. You cannot gain an Artifact this way.
Cost: $5
Treasure

So my intention is that the max # of copies of a card you can gain with Artifacts in a single turn is equal to the number you have in play. For example, if you have 1 Market in play, you can gain at most 1 Market w/ Artifacts. If you have 2, you can gain at most 2, if you have 3, you can gain at most 3, etc. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how to word this better/less confusingly?

EDIT: Artifact can no longer gain copies of itself.

EDIT 2: Now costs $5.

EDIT 3: Renamed "Painting." (I've decided to start making an expansion based around the Renaissance, which will include this card, as it fits the expansion's theme)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 09:52:09 am by Gubump »
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faust

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2015, 06:11:39 pm »
+1

I think the cleanest and most trackable way to this is:

Artifact:
$1
Name a card other than Artifact. If you have a copy of that card in play, discard it and gain a copy of the named card.
Cost: $4
Treasure

It has weird interaction with Storyteller/Black Market, but what doesn't?
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2015, 06:16:49 pm »
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This can be very strong I think. I would playtest it in Colony games, as gaining Platinums seems OP. Also Potion cost cards are much easier to get this way.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

LastFootnote

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2015, 06:18:04 pm »
+1

I think the cleanest and most trackable way to this is:

Artifact:
$1
Name a card other than Artifact. If you have a copy of that card in play, discard it and gain a copy of the named card.
Cost: $4
Treasure

Durations.
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Gubump

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2015, 08:37:52 pm »
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I think the cleanest and most trackable way to this is:

Artifact:
$1
Name a card other than Artifact. If you have a copy of that card in play, discard it and gain a copy of the named card.
Cost: $4
Treasure

Durations.

Yeah, I thought about that wording before the version I posted, but I almost immediately realized that it makes Duration cards too hard to track.
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Gubump

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2015, 08:39:06 pm »
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This can be very strong I think. I would playtest it in Colony games, as gaining Platinums seems OP. Also Potion cost cards are much easier to get this way.

Yeah, we did playtest it in Colony games. We next to never play Province games.
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faust

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2015, 09:32:25 pm »
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Well, Durations are bad :(

The original version has serious tracking issues though, in particular with Storyteller/BM involved. How about this:

Artifact:
$1
Name a card other than Artifact. If you have more at most as many Aritfacts in play as copies of that card, gain another copy of that card.
Cost: $4
Treasure

It's ever-so-slightly weaker, but I think that will hardly ever be relevant in pratice, and comparing numbers of two cards in play is way easier than remembering how many cards you gained. It is also stronger in that it does not keep track of other gains during your turn (which would be a mess).
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Gubump

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2015, 10:27:14 pm »
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Well, Durations are bad :(

The original version has serious tracking issues though, in particular with Storyteller/BM involved. How about this:

Artifact:
$1
Name a card other than Artifact. If you have more at most as many Aritfacts in play as copies of that card, gain another copy of that card.
Cost: $4
Treasure

It's ever-so-slightly weaker, but I think that will hardly ever be relevant in pratice, and comparing numbers of two cards in play is way easier than remembering how many cards you gained. It is also stronger in that it does not keep track of other gains during your turn (which would be a mess).

It doesn't have any tracking issues with Black Market or Storyteller. Treasures played with those remain in play. I like your suggested wording, though. Also, we decided that it really needs to cost $5.
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faust

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2015, 12:00:30 pm »
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It doesn't have any tracking issues with Black Market or Storyteller. Treasures played with those remain in play. I like your suggested wording, though. Also, we decided that it really needs to cost $5.

The tracking issue I meant was that you have to remember which cards you gained until your buy phase. Which is really a porblem with any mid-turn gainer.

For the card itself, I think the pricing is better now... best comparison is Horn of Plenty. Artifact is weaker as a gainer (despite with stuff like Hunting Party-BM), but it provides a bit of income instead. I think it's balanced this way.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

GendoIkari

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2015, 12:08:10 pm »
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It doesn't have any tracking issues with Black Market or Storyteller. Treasures played with those remain in play. I like your suggested wording, though. Also, we decided that it really needs to cost $5.

The tracking issue I meant was that you have to remember which cards you gained until your buy phase. Which is really a porblem with any mid-turn gainer.

For the card itself, I think the pricing is better now... best comparison is Horn of Plenty. Artifact is weaker as a gainer (despite with stuff like Hunting Party-BM), but it provides a bit of income instead. I think it's balanced this way.

The card is confusing, not at all immediately clear what it does. But that sort of tracking shouldn't be a big deal; Smugglers and Treasure Hunter already do worse.
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Gubump

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2015, 12:45:50 pm »
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It doesn't have any tracking issues with Black Market or Storyteller. Treasures played with those remain in play. I like your suggested wording, though. Also, we decided that it really needs to cost $5.

The tracking issue I meant was that you have to remember which cards you gained until your buy phase. Which is really a porblem with any mid-turn gainer.

For the card itself, I think the pricing is better now... best comparison is Horn of Plenty. Artifact is weaker as a gainer (despite with stuff like Hunting Party-BM), but it provides a bit of income instead. I think it's balanced this way.

Um, Storyteller isn't a gainer.
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faust

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2015, 02:13:08 pm »
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It doesn't have any tracking issues with Black Market or Storyteller. Treasures played with those remain in play. I like your suggested wording, though. Also, we decided that it really needs to cost $5.

The tracking issue I meant was that you have to remember which cards you gained until your buy phase. Which is really a porblem with any mid-turn gainer.

For the card itself, I think the pricing is better now... best comparison is Horn of Plenty. Artifact is weaker as a gainer (despite with stuff like Hunting Party-BM), but it provides a bit of income instead. I think it's balanced this way.

Um, Storyteller isn't a gainer.

Storyteller, play Artifact, is.
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Gubump

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2015, 02:51:15 pm »
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It doesn't have any tracking issues with Black Market or Storyteller. Treasures played with those remain in play. I like your suggested wording, though. Also, we decided that it really needs to cost $5.

The tracking issue I meant was that you have to remember which cards you gained until your buy phase. Which is really a porblem with any mid-turn gainer.

For the card itself, I think the pricing is better now... best comparison is Horn of Plenty. Artifact is weaker as a gainer (despite with stuff like Hunting Party-BM), but it provides a bit of income instead. I think it's balanced this way.

Um, Storyteller isn't a gainer.

Storyteller, play Artifact, is.

Ah, so you're saying if you play Artifact (now Painting) with Storyteller. I understand now.
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polot38

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2015, 04:23:25 pm »
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Pick a card you have in play. If it is face up, gain a copy of it. Flip the card you picked face down.
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Gubump

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2015, 06:30:19 pm »
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Pick a card you have in play. If it is face up, gain a copy of it. Flip the card you picked face down.

That is a good wording.

However, recent playtesting has given us an example of just how big the Grand Canyon of a strength gap between $4 and $5-cost cards is. At $4, it was beyond a God-tier card, it was a must-buy. As in, more of a must-buy than even Chapel. At $5, it was barely better than a junk-tier card. So, we decided to drop the limit on gaining and keep its cost at $5 (still can't gain itself, of course).
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 06:31:56 pm by Gubump »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2015, 08:08:42 pm »
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Pick a card you have in play. If it is face up, gain a copy of it. Flip the card you picked face down.

No, too many rules confusions about what being face down means. I mean it should just mean nothing, but people will wonder if it still counts as an action in play, or if they are allowed to look and see what it is, etc.
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market squire

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Re: Wording Challenge 3: Artifact
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2015, 11:11:10 am »
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How about something like Herbalist?

Painting:
$1
When you discard this from play, gain a copy of the last card you discarded from play during this Cleanup, if it is not a Painting.
Cost: $5
Treasure

I don't think this is "barely better than a junk-tier card". You can compare it to Treasure Trove. It produces 1$ less, but gives you many more options, and doesn't junk you with a Copper. The weak point is that it is not as good at the start of the game because you need a couple of good cards to copy first. In mid-game, this should be pretty good. Edit: It also compares favorably to Horn of Plenty (as engine part gainer, not as alt-strategy).
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 11:27:34 am by market squire »
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