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[Jeebus]

I just reported this to Making Fun.

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20151029/log.0.1446143203770.txt

If a player resigns in the middle of a turn, the list of cards in the player's deck is incomplete. It looks like cards in play, possibly cards in hand, are not included. This is a bug that is extra serious if a Victory that counts cards in players' decks is included, because then the VP count is actually wrong!

In this case Magyi resigned on my (Jeebus) turn, and my Vineyards were counted as worth 4 points each, when in fact they are worth 8 points. Very horrible bug.

The bug is there every time someone resigns in the middle of a turn, at least if some cards have been played! But with alt-VP it can actually screw up the VP count. (It won't matter for who wins, because a player resigned anyway.)

Has this been reported before?

[ehunt]

I don't know if it has already been reported, but I believe it's been a problem with Goko from the start (i.e. Funsockets days).

I also wish they'd fix it, but I actually disagree with you about the severity of this bug (given that there's no way to resign a game and not lose). If the opponent resigns during the middle of a turn, it's unclear what your score "should be" as it depends on what you were going to buy that turn. So you couldn't even reasonably make sense of it in multiplayer -- even there, if someone resigns, you basically have to call the game a wash (unless you have some independent committee concluding that clearly Player 2 would've crushed Player 3 had Player 1 not resigned).

[Awaclus]

I don't know if it has already been reported, but I believe it's been a problem with Goko from the start (i.e. Funsockets days).

I also wish they'd fix it, but I actually disagree with you about the severity of this bug (given that there's no way to resign a game and not lose). If the opponent resigns during the middle of a turn, it's unclear what your score "should be" as it depends on what you were going to buy that turn. So you couldn't even reasonably make sense of it in multiplayer -- even there, if someone resigns, you basically have to call the game a wash (unless you have some independent committee concluding that clearly Player 2 would've crushed Player 3 had Player 1 not resigned).

Also, if you're playing a slow strategy against a fast strategy, the fast strategy will have more points when someone resigns even though your strategy might be better.

[Jeebus]

What you guys are saying is true in terms of deciding how well the players were doing relative to each other. Obviously the VP score doesn't help with that.

But, to take this game as an example, my Vineyards actually had a VP worth at that point in the game (or a potential VP score if you say that VP cards only score at the end). It actually matters when you play how much Victory cards are worth at a given time. "Since my Gardens are worth x, I can end the game and win." "Since my opponent's Silk Roads are worth x, I can't end the game and win." Etc. In fact, part of the reason my opponent resigned in this game, was the VP worth of my Vineyards at that time (possibly extrapolated into an approximation of their worth at the end of the game). When the game ends because of a resignation, the VP score is a snapshot of the game state that needs to be correct.

[GendoIkari]

What you guys are saying is true in terms of deciding how well the players were doing relative to each other. Obviously the VP score doesn't help with that.

But, to take this game as an example, my Vineyards actually had a VP worth at that point in the game (or a potential VP score if you say that VP cards only score at the end). It actually matters when you play how much Victory cards are worth at a given time. "Since my Gardens are worth x, I can end the game and win." "Since my opponent's Silk Roads are worth x, I can't end the game and win." Etc. In fact, part of the reason my opponent resigned in this game, was the VP worth of my Vineyards at that time (possibly extrapolated into an approximation of their worth at the end of the game). When the game ends because of a resignation, the VP score is a snapshot of the game state that needs to be correct.

I'm confused by this... why does it matter? It sounds like you're saying that it matters because it doesn't correctly show how much VP you have, but in what way does it matter how much VP you have after the game is over? What is the importance of a snapshot of the game state at that point?

And to the point that the others made, there's not even a necessarily correct answer to "how many VP did I have when the person resigned." The game never really finished; so you never got any VP. The rules of Dominion describe how the game ends, and say that you count up your VP cards at the end. When someone resigns, that game never properly ends. In online Dominion, you need a way to score wins, so the person who didn't resign wins. That's fair. But it's not within the normal rules of Dominion. You didn't win by scoring the most VP anymore.

So I agree that it can be nice to know what the game state was at the time it ended. I agree moreso that it's bad if the game tells you what the gamestate was, but tells you incorrectly. But the gamstate has no real use outside of curiosity.

[Jeebus]

First of all, as you said, don't give a game state at all if it's wrong.

The reason it matters is that it gives wrong information. Everybody counts the value of Victory cards during the game, maybe not every game or all the time, but it matters often enough that you do, and should. With your overly complicated reasoning, you actually try to make the point that we can't do that, because there isn't a "necessarily correct answer" to how many points the cards are worth. A Vineyard is worth [Action cards] divided by 3, it's that simple. If you lose an Action card later, or get one, maybe it will be worth more or less, but there certainly is an answer to what it's worth at any given point. Even the VP counter acknowledges that. If you "never get any VP" until the end of the game, how the hell can there be a VP counter?

If the game abruptly ends and you're given the wrong information about what the cards were worth at that point, how is that not a problem? Either you'll think you were wrong in your count, or you'll have to check for yourself. You might think you could have ended it before, or misplayed in some other way. If you are just happy with your win (or okay with your loss) and want to move to the next game immediately, then fine. But the log is there for people who want to check out the game and maybe learn from it. It shouldn't give wrong information, not about which cards were in the players decks, and certainly not about the current VP counts. Jeez.

[Jeebus]

Oh, and the guy from Making Fun didn't read my email carefully enough, and thought I just miscounted my Action cards. I had to repeat it. :p

[Donald X.]

The reason it matters is that it gives wrong information.

It's fine to want this fixed; no complaints there. But I mean. They aren't expecting Adventures now until January, and I know that date might slip but it sure won't come out earlier. It will be a happy day when I think things are going so well that they can spare some time to fix the VP scores on resigned games.

[Jeebus]

Shouldn't they fix existing bugs before introducing major new functionality, which usually means introducing new bugs? That's the best practice anyway. This isn't a nice-to-have feature, but a bug about which cards actually belong to each player. The concept of "your cards" matter for Inheritance, so if they plan to implement this properly (not just pasting a lot of ad-hoc code on top, which is how it was under Goko), this seems to be important.

[Deadlock39]

I think you're making some assumptions about the nature of this bug. It doesn't seem likely that they have some concept of "your cards" that they use to count VP at the end of the game. 

There is a bug somewhere in the process that fails to collect the cards from the "in play" zone when they count points at the end of the game.  It's probably a super easy bug to fix, but I agree with others who are of the opinion that it doesn't matter enough to waste time fixing when there are other bugs and features that are way more important to everyone.

[GendoIkari]

Shouldn't they fix existing bugs before introducing major new functionality, which usually means introducing new bugs?

In a perfect world perhaps. But from experience as a programmer, there's no such thing as "fix all the bugs". A large code base will always have bugs. It's just a question of severity and ease of fix. If you didn't start on new functionality until you had addressed all existing bugs (or even just all reported bugs, which is a subset of all bugs) then you'd never get new functionality.

[jeb56]

I am not entirely convinced that MF has a bug here.  The issue may be with the rules of Dominion. (I do not have my rules easily accessible.) 

In the normal course of events, the end of game check appear to happen after clean-up. In the Basic game, for Gardens, you are told to collect the cards and count them.  You are probably told to collect them from your Hand, Draw Pile, and Discard Pile.  You are probably not told to collect them from the Play Area.  (After all, there is nothing in the Play Area.) 

With expansions and Promos, you are told to collect from more places. (Again, I don't have my rules with me.)  You collect set-aside Duration cards, and cards on the Island Mat, and set-aside Prince and cards with it, and cards set aside in various places with Adventures, and maybe some more that I have forgotten right now.  But probably there is no place that says to collect the cards from the Play Area. 

OK.  Someone resigns.  The game ends right now.  The winner is determined.  There is no clean-up phase to move cards from the Play Area to a place from which they are collected for Alt-VP purposes.  They score up the situation that they have.

If Donald adds the Play Area to the list of places to collect cards from, then they have a scoring bug.  Until then, it is probably just an awkward mis-feature.

[Jeebus]

I think you're making some assumptions about the nature of this bug. It doesn't seem likely that they have some concept of "your cards" that they use to count VP at the end of the game. 

There is a bug somewhere in the process that fails to collect the cards from the "in play" zone when they count points at the end of the game.  It's probably a super easy bug to fix, but I agree with others who are of the opinion that it doesn't matter enough to waste time fixing when there are other bugs and features that are way more important to everyone.

You're right that I was assuming. But as I've stated before it's not just "when they count points at the end of the game". It's that they actually don't count in-play cards as belonging to the player. Just see the list of each player's cards at the end of a resigned game. I would assume that they count cards set aside, cards in hand and cards in discard as belonging to the player, or else Victory cards would fail after a non-resigned game too. So somehow they have a concept of "your cards" that consists of all these locations, which they use in the end to list each player's cards, and which is buggy because it doesn't include in-play cards. If they code well, they would use this same concept, separated into some kind of subroutine, for Inheritance.

[singletee]

I am not entirely convinced that MF has a bug here.  The issue may be with the rules of Dominion. (I do not have my rules easily accessible.) 

In the normal course of events, the end of game check appear to happen after clean-up. In the Basic game, for Gardens, you are told to collect the cards and count them.  You are probably told to collect them from your Hand, Draw Pile, and Discard Pile.  You are probably not told to collect them from the Play Area.  (After all, there is nothing in the Play Area.) 

With expansions and Promos, you are told to collect from more places. (Again, I don't have my rules with me.)  You collect set-aside Duration cards, and cards on the Island Mat, and set-aside Prince and cards with it, and cards set aside in various places with Adventures, and maybe some more that I have forgotten right now.  But probably there is no place that says to collect the cards from the Play Area. 

OK.  Someone resigns.  The game ends right now.  The winner is determined.  There is no clean-up phase to move cards from the Play Area to a place from which they are collected for Alt-VP purposes.  They score up the situation that they have.

If Donald adds the Play Area to the list of places to collect cards from, then they have a scoring bug.  Until then, it is probably just an awkward mis-feature.

I'm pretty sure the rules do not cover resignation at all. Resigning is something you can do in real life that is outside the game rules. So any scoring that is done when someone resigns is going to be a house-rule of some kind. The basic rules do say:

Each player puts all of his cards into his Deck and counts the
victory points on all the cards he has.

The concept of "your cards" intuitively includes cards that you have in play. Precedent for this also exists in that Inherited Estates continue to be yours while they are in your play area.

You collect set-aside Duration cards,[...]

Duration cards are in play; they do not get set aside.

[GendoIkari]

I am not entirely convinced that MF has a bug here.  The issue may be with the rules of Dominion. (I do not have my rules easily accessible.) 

In the normal course of events, the end of game check appear to happen after clean-up. In the Basic game, for Gardens, you are told to collect the cards and count them.  You are probably told to collect them from your Hand, Draw Pile, and Discard Pile.  You are probably not told to collect them from the Play Area.  (After all, there is nothing in the Play Area.) 

With expansions and Promos, you are told to collect from more places. (Again, I don't have my rules with me.)  You collect set-aside Duration cards, and cards on the Island Mat, and set-aside Prince and cards with it, and cards set aside in various places with Adventures, and maybe some more that I have forgotten right now.  But probably there is no place that says to collect the cards from the Play Area. 

OK.  Someone resigns.  The game ends right now.  The winner is determined.  There is no clean-up phase to move cards from the Play Area to a place from which they are collected for Alt-VP purposes.  They score up the situation that they have.

If Donald adds the Play Area to the list of places to collect cards from, then they have a scoring bug.  Until then, it is probably just an awkward mis-feature.

I'm pretty sure the rules do not cover resignation at all. Resigning is something you can do in real life that is outside the game rules. So any scoring that is done when someone resigns is going to be a house-rule of some kind. The basic rules do say:

Each player puts all of his cards into his Deck and counts the
victory points on all the cards he has.

The concept of "your cards" intuitively includes cards that you have in play. Precedent for this also exists in that Inherited Estates continue to be yours while they are in your play area.

You collect set-aside Duration cards,[...]

Duration cards are in play; they do not get set aside.

Exactly. jeb56 is right that there's a rules issue here, because resigning is not covered within the rules. But he's wrong about the rules telling you to count up some cards at the end of the game but not others. Every card that is "yours" is counted for points at the end, no matter where it is: In play, set aside, discard, hand, or deck. There's no rule being completely specific about this; it's simply the idea of counting up "your" cards. And "your" cards are defined more clearly in the Adventures rulebook because of inheritance.

[Jeebus]

Resigning is something you can do in real life that is outside the game rules. So any scoring that is done when someone resigns is going to be a house-rule of some kind.

Technically yes, but as I've said, only insofar as counting the score in the middle of the game is a house rule. And that, technically (since technically is the way we do things in this thread), includes counting the score orally or just in your mind.

But that's totally irrelevant of course. Dominion Online includes a VP counter. The VP counter is not a house rule of Dominion Online. In Dominion Online we can count VP during the game. So in Dominion Online the players absolutely have a score when someone resigns. Agreed? I expect everybody who made this silly argument to either upvote, post that they agree, or come up with a new argument now.

[singletee]

Resigning is something you can do in real life that is outside the game rules. So any scoring that is done when someone resigns is going to be a house-rule of some kind.

Technically yes, but as I've said, only insofar as counting the score in the middle of the game is a house rule. And that, technically (since technically is the way we do things in this thread), includes counting the score orally or just in your mind.

But that's totally irrelevant of course. Dominion Online includes a VP counter. The VP counter is not a house rule of Dominion Online. In Dominion Online we can count VP during the game. So in Dominion Online the players absolutely have a score when someone resigns. Agreed? I expect everybody who made this silly argument to either upvote, post that they agree, or come up with a new argument now.

I certainly do agree that the scoring is done incorrectly. It's a bug that should be addressed. I guess it doesn't feel like a major issue (compared to stuff like matchmaking and platform non-support) because I know about it and I can count up the VP myself. Usually I don't; I just throw it into the "I won so hard my opponent resigned" bucket.

[GendoIkari]

Resigning is something you can do in real life that is outside the game rules. So any scoring that is done when someone resigns is going to be a house-rule of some kind.

Technically yes, but as I've said, only insofar as counting the score in the middle of the game is a house rule. And that, technically (since technically is the way we do things in this thread), includes counting the score orally or just in your mind.

But that's totally irrelevant of course. Dominion Online includes a VP counter. The VP counter is not a house rule of Dominion Online. In Dominion Online we can count VP during the game. So in Dominion Online the players absolutely have a score when someone resigns. Agreed? I expect everybody who made this silly argument to either upvote, post that they agree, or come up with a new argument now.

I'll do all 3!

I agree, and I upvoted.

New argument: I never meant to really say that you don't have any VP during the game, or that you don't have any VP after the game if the game ended in resignation. Only that the number of VP you have is mostly irrelevant in the situation that someone resigned. It's relevant to one's own curiosity, and to the fact that if it shows something, then it shouldn't show something wrong. But not relevant to anything that affects the actual game.

[Donald X.]

Shouldn't they fix existing bugs before introducing major new functionality, which usually means introducing new bugs? That's the best practice anyway. This isn't a nice-to-have feature, but a bug about which cards actually belong to each player. The concept of "your cards" matter for Inheritance, so if they plan to implement this properly (not just pasting a lot of ad-hoc code on top, which is how it was under Goko), this seems to be important.

It sounds good to fix existing bugs before adding features... but this game is out, people are paying money to play it, and for some of those features, the lack of the feature is a lot like a bug.

And then, this bug you're talking about, it is extremely low-impact. Anyone else we ask is going to have things they want fixed or added ahead of that; when we sort the list by how much how many people care about things, total desire in customer dollars to have problems fixed, for sure this problem is at or near the bottom. And it will take so long to get all those other things done.

[blueblimp]

Well, there are some good reasons to fix bugs first (see section "Do you fix bugs before writing new code?"). The argument as I understand it is that if you're ever going to fix a bug, it's less costly to do it earlier rather than later. That said, with this bug, it might be okay to never fix it, in which case the least costly way to deal with it is to never do anything about it.

A big difference between something that is a bug vs something that is a feature is that typically, fixing a bug does not make the code more complicated, and in fact may make the code simpler. Adding a feature on the other hand almost always makes the code more complicated. And it's harder to fix bugs the more complicated the code is.

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly, I don't care. If my opponent resigns that means I win so that's that.

[Jeebus]

Honestly, I don't care. If my opponent resigns that means I win so that's that.

I don't really get this, at least not for forum users. You never care about checking the log if your opponent resigns? I often check the log to find out what happened, how much was luck, what either player might have done differently, etc, you know, to learn. That doesn't change just because it was a resign. But maybe you mean to say that you don't care about the log, which is another matter then. Plenty of people do though.

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly, I don't care. If my opponent resigns that means I win so that's that.

I don't really get this, at least not for forum users. You never care about checking the log if your opponent resigns? I often check the log to find out what happened, how much was luck, what either player might have done differently, etc, you know, to learn. That doesn't change just because it was a resign. But maybe you mean to say that you don't care about the log, which is another matter then. Plenty of people do though.

Oh, I care about the log, but if my opponent resigned it's usually obvious why they did so. I guess it could be nice to see how much shuffle luck played a role.

Anyway, I'm more likely to look over a log of a game where I resigned/lost rather than the other way around.

[Jeebus]

Oh, I care about the log, but if my opponent resigned it's usually obvious why they did so. I guess it could be nice to see how much shuffle luck played a role.

Anyway, I'm more likely to look over a log of a game where I resigned/lost rather than the other way around.

Sure, but this bug doesn't care who resigned, you or the other player.

[Kfm]

Count me among the people who feel that dev team should not spend time on this.

I agree with a point made earlier that it's not always clear what the score 'should' be in these scenarios.  What if you resign when masqueraded cards are in transit between players. Please don't try to answer that, it's just an example of the potential issues involved.