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[SCSN]

When you find yourself being offended by something literally no one else finds offensive (like my posts in that thread and unlike the word [...]) the problem is with your own processing of and reaction to the data and not with the data itself or the person producing it.

This is just incorrect on several levels. Maybe a better example is appropriate.

Actually why am I even trying? Really? OK I guess.

I built a tower out of blocks in my basement. I'm proud of my creation so I invite my friend Will Smith over to check it out, maybe suggest some sweet mods to it or something. Mr. Smith sees the tower of blocks and says to himself "Oh! A tower of blocks! I know what I love to do with those!" and runs right into it, knocking it down. I'm a little upset by this, so I explain to Will that I don't want my tower knocked down, but I'd rather keep it standing so I can look at it, maybe tweak it, add figurines, LEDs, I dunno. While explaining this, I set up my tower again. Once it's finished, Mr. Smith sees a tower of blocks and says to himself "Oh! A tower of blocks! I know what I love to do with those!" and runs right into it, knocking it down.

The solution to this is to not invite Will Smith over to my basement anymore because he doesn't care what I think of my tower of blocks. It doesn't matter to him that I don't want him to knock down my tower of blocks, he will just do it anyways. In fact, if Will repeatedly demonstrates that he doesn't care about my feelings and will just do or say whatever he wants, then eventually I'll learn that he's not the kind of person I want to hang out with.

My neighbor doesn't care about my tower of blocks, most people in the world don't care about my tower of blocks. It doesn't make Will Smith a better person. It doesn't mean that I should continue inviting Will Smith over to my basement so he can continue to knock down my tower of blocks. I care about my tower of blocks. If Will Smith was a decent person he would see that and eventually stop knocking over my tower of blocks. Even if Will Smith thought my tower of blocks was stupid and deserved to be knocked over, the decektn thing to do would be to just keep that to himself and not knock down my tower of blocks anymore.

Is this making sense to you?

It's more like you're telling Will Smith that while in your basement, he cannot say that your tower of blocks looks ugly.  And you're not even just banning the word ugly, you're banning any manner of expressing that he doesn't agree with you that it is beautiful, no matter how politely or rudely he expresses it. 

People are not comfortable when you try to mess with their free speech.  Making threads where people are banned from disagreeing with you, and disagreeing with people in a way that discredits them as not really trying to help rather than agreeing to disagree makes people feel like you are messing with their free speech.

The strangest thing to me is that I didn't even disagree with him, I just posted information that was both on-topic and helpful. He paints me as some sort of repeat offender of I don't even know what, but it's a different action he takes offense to each time: me critiquing his play in chat, modifying a .dll to make things a bit better for people who want it, pointing out some of the hilarious stuff I've seen opponents do as of late, making a contribution to his thread, etc. He refers to these things as if they're all the same but in actuality they have absolutely nothing to do with each other and the only common thread is that I'm an actor in it, so the natural conclusion is that my actions offend him regardless of what they are. Except that it's not just me, Mic should be ashamed of himself too, and now this entire forum fills him with contempt.

So no, Adam, it doesn't make any sense to me at all.

[Burning Skull]

[Witherweaver]

And I mean, the counting thread is not serious; it was made in a very lighthearted way (even a bit making fun of these other arguments),  and I already messed it up by posting twice.  It was started as a joke (with maybe some curious outcomes), and not with a bunch of big font, bold, caps, multicolored bits of text, which really comes off as ranting.  I don't really mean any offense, but when I read posts like that, I just get the strong urge to crack some jokes and troll a bit.  (Not like, mean trolling, but just the kind of gibing you would do with friends.)

[SCSN]

Have I been training well or been eating way too much fastfood? (Your answer determines whether you get my +1)

[Donald X.]

I'm not trying to stop people's "freedom of speech." I honestly didn't (and still don't) understand why people can't just say nothing when they disagree with me when what I'm doing is not getting in anyone's way. It's not hard to just ignore the thread, I don't understand why that isn't an option. There's a counting thread that everybody is doing great in that started yesterday, but the threads I start just end up getting trolled and derailed and people just do what they want.

And the response seems to be "hey, it's the internet! We can do what we want lol get over it!" F.DS used to be above this, but I guess we aren't anymore. OK.

Clearly the answer then is for me to stop posting here, so I'll stop. I hope you're all happy here.

Actually someone already posted twice in the numbers thread, because he hadn't read the OP, because what were the odds the OP was going to limit what he was allowed to post in the thread. I flirted with posting twice in it just to be friendly, but then people were trying to be fancy with their numbers and I didn't immediately think of two good number jokes. I will say this, the 42 guy missed a great chance to make a cool Lewis Carroll reference.

The internet has places that are heavily moderated and places that are lightly moderated. I personally prefer the lightly moderated ones, and they last longer. When people are asking you questions in your interview thread and then they start talking about Coup, or whatever, it's a positive thing, it's people socializing and having fun, and if you clamp down on that stuff then they find other places to go online.

I quit the forums for a year and have no regrets. I had those moments of feeling enraged; for sure they suck. If you do quit for a while you'll still interact some with the people you most want to. And I mean it's a real time-saver, depending on how many other forums you also post in.

[Awaclus]

Clearly the answer then is for me to stop posting here, so I'll stop. I hope you're all happy here.

For the time being, yes, that sounds like it would be for the best for everyone. I hope it's going to be temporary, though.

[Burning Skull]

Have I been training well or been eating way too much fastfood?

you just have an otter under your sweater

[SCSN]

Have I been training well or been eating way too much fastfood?

you just have an otter under your sweater

Excellent, best possible response.

[Witherweaver]

Have I been training well or been eating way too much fastfood?

you just have an otter under your sweater

Dude, seriously.  We have a thread for otters.  Stay on topic.

[jsh357]

I am disappointed this thread is not for real discussion of days collection. False advertising

[popsofctown]

I honestly didn't (and still don't) understand why people can't just say nothing when they disagree with me

I don't really know how to respond to this.  But this looks like a real root of the problem.

[Kirian]

I am disappointed this thread is not for real discussion of days collection. False advertising

Well, technically the thread OP didn't ask for discussion, it provided a link for data collection via form. Which is, as ravi noted, more likely to get actual data than a forum thread is.

I honestly didn't (and still don't) understand why people can't just say nothing when they disagree with me

I don't really know how to respond to this.  But this looks like a real root of the problem.

Yes.  This is a fundamental misunderstanding of humans very generally, discussions in general, and internet discussions in particular.

[Witherweaver]

I am disappointed this thread is not for real discussion of days collection. False advertising

Should have tagged it [serious]

[SCSN]

I am disappointed this thread is not for real discussion of days collection. False advertising

Should have tagged it [serious]

[GendoIkari]

I'm confused by something. How is the Isotropish leaderboard still a thing? I mean, doesn't it get data based off of the Goko rankings? How is that data helpful in determining a person's rank in MF? I know that MF copied the rankings from Goko to begin with, but won't the Goko rankings / Isotophish rankings now be out of date?

[SCSN]

No, it gets data from MF: all previous day's logs become available for download in the (European) morning.

The current iso leaderboard is based on MF data only, it didn't consider any Goko data (though the old leaderboard is still available, it's linked somewhere on the new page).

[GendoIkari]

No, it gets data from MF: all previous day's logs become available for download in the (European) morning.

Ah. I just figured since it was hosted at gokosalvager, it had nothing to do with MF.

[ravi]

At no point did we ever give them the information they needed to reproduce this problem. I think it's not unfair to assume that they did some testing on this option before they pushed it out and it worked for them, so there's some issue that they didn't see. We've told them it isn't working for us, but if they aren't able to replicate that behavior, they will have a tough time fixing it.

I strongly suspect they cannot fail to reproduce the problem, and that it will be obvious that it doesn't work and what's wrong from the most fleeting of glances at the code. Now that won't be enough; they need a better set of matchmaking options, with new buttons and things. But the bug with that option, man, it's not the kind of bug you labor over.

Just because DXV says "case closed" doesn't mean they have what they need from us. Yeah maybe they can figure it out but if my assumption is true (I hope it isn't) then they could still potentially benefit from having some actual data beyond "MQ started a game with a guy whose rating was too far off. It's broken. Fix it lol."

Hey, they also got 2 logs.

...

Again it is really unlikely they need anything beyond "this feature doesn't work, and, in case you hadn't done this math, it's making the game worse for players of all skill levels."

My issue with this (and why I think it is valuable to still collect data when you feel things are being matched improperly), is that there are 3 possible problems with the matching (which are probably ALL occurring)

1. The matching doesn't work as intended - We are still getting matched with people who are more than 1000 below our rating even though we specify that we don't want that.

2. The ratings are bad - Getting 1000 below our rating is meaningless so using this as a metric is no good unless we actually have a proper rating algorithm.

3. The matching works, the ratings are fine, but using 1000 is just a poor line to draw for automatching - Everything works okay, but we still get matched with huge disparities in level because 3000 is WAY worse than 4000 which is way worse than 5000, etc.

If 1 is true, then it is easy for them to fix. If we find out that 1 is false and it has to be a combination of 2 or 3 then they need to fix those things rather than focus on trying to find a bug in the matching.

In my dream scenario they would make sure that the automatch works (fixing 1) switch to Isotropish (fixing 2) and allow for a custom range of rankings that you allow to be automatched to (fixing 3). My personal priority is to allow customization first and then think about changing the ranking algorithm. Just telling them "the automatch doesn't work" may not be enough for them to understand this, but if we gathered data to show them maybe they would be more willing to make the changes.

[popsofctown]

We already know 1 is true.  2 and 3 are difficult to investigate until that is explored.  And the way 1 works, it has a lot more to do with looking at the code than it has to do with looking at test cases, which are why a lot of people with a little programming background have been pooh poohing data collection threads.

[AdamH]

Hi.

So I stopped posting on the forums for a week or so (OK I posted a tournament result and a partial result, that doesn't count). I'd like to share my thoughts after this.

First, my thoughts have not changed whatsoever since 24 hours after my last post, just like I didn't think they would. Maybe people will take me more seriously because I spent a week away from the forums, I dunno. That's their problem. I don't really care.

I think it's best for me to not look at the Dominion Online subboard anymore. So I'm going to unfollow this thread and I'm not coming in here anymore. If you have something you desperately need me to hear, posting it in this thread will not accomplish that. My opinions on the way this community has handled Making Fun's client and talking about it have not changed: it's not becoming of us and it's counterproductive. My opinions on the competency of MF's developers and how this community should attempt to communicate/deal with them have also not changed: they are who we have and they should be treated with more respect than we are giving them.

If you disagree with me, which I know many of you do, that's great, but I am right about this and you are wrong. You will not change my mind about this. My efforts communicating with MF have eventually resulted in several features that you wanted so badly that you all made a patch and whatever else to get -- something that doesn't need to be updated every release, but that's not going to happen anymore. I'm going to help them fix the things I care about. If you'd like to continue to have MF implement the things that you want, I'd strongly recommend taking a good hard look at the things that have happened here that have worked and selecting the few of them that have actually given fruit, and expanding on those.

I honestly didn't (and still don't) understand why people can't just say nothing when they disagree with me

I don't really know how to respond to this.  But this looks like a real root of the problem.

^^This guy. Man, he really nailed it with this post. A few days ago I read this and I just wanted to give this guy a hug. I had some talks with a close IRL friend of mine who knows some things about the internet about this as a result of reading this post. I also skimmed over the stupidest fight I've ever seen between jomini and SCSN/LF in some other thread that I forgot. There's something to this and that something is what determines whether or not I will continue to post on these forums. I will soon start a thread in the Meta subforum about said something and hopefully a thing can be done so that I feel comfortable engaging in some discussion with you all again. I'd really like to continue to support Dominion videos, live streams, and competitive play (both online and IRL) through posting more on these forums, so I'm hoping a mature discussion can take place over there that will allow me to not hate every single person here forever. Seems like a pretty low bar so let's hope we don't screw that up.

Finally, before I remove myself from this metaphorical soap box, I'm just going to say that F.DS has changed a lot in the three years since I've been here. I've changed as well. Up until a few months ago I cared very deeply about these forums and the people on them -- I've met a few people IRL through these forums and have actual real friendships with some of them. Some people I've only spoken with online and I considered them real friends of mine as well. I think (and this is not open to your speculation, this is how I feel and you can't change that anymore) the reason I got so upset before is because people I respected and considered friends were acting in a way that I didn't know/think they were capable of. I had put my respect on some people here and I was disappointed when they acted in a way that showed me I had put too much respect in them. This happened on an individual level for several people but if you just pretend that the F.DS community as a whole is one person, it happened for that guy too.

So basically I cared too much about F.DS and F.DS wasn't the person I thought it was. What I need to learn from this is to appreciate F.DS for what it is, and re-assign F.DS its new place in my life, whatever that is. A valuable lesson we can all learn from my mistake is that no matter how many posts someone has, or respect they got for posting MS paint images or otter cards (or heaven forbid, actual Dominion insight *gasp*). No matter what someone's Isotropish rating is, or how many YouTube subscribers they have; everybody here says things that are insensitive, inaccurate, misleading, or maybe they're just mistaken. Don't take anyone's word for anything based on trust or their reputation: think for yourself and make the decision you think is right based on the evidence you find compelling. Bonus points if you come to the same conclusions as me, since I am correct about everything.

A lot of you mean well, and this doesn't apply to a lot of you. That's great. I'm just posting this here because I thought people might want to know. Not that it matters to me (see above and below) but if you don't like what I'm saying or that I'm saying anything, the most appropriate way to deal with that is just to keep quiet, or maybe send me a PM if you feel like it, just don't be a jerk.

I said this before, but I'm not looking for replies in this thread. PM me if you feel like there's something you need to say to me, or maybe go to the Meta subforum if you feel like you have something to add there. I may not get to making that post for a while, so don't go refreshing the page every 5 seconds waiting for it. Go play some Dominion or something.

[SCSN]

So even though MF's installer is deleting a guy's files they're still really competent, and in the grand scheme of things it's actually my mod that is the real problem.

That's an, eh... interesting perspective to take.

[schadd]

[XerxesPraelor]

in the grand scheme of things it's actually my mod that is the real problem.

There doesn't need to be just one problem. In this context there is no "the real problem". There are lots of problems, among which I am sure AdamH includes the "deleting tons of files", and saying that since that is a problem, your mod cannot be a problem, is bad logic.

(that said, thanks a lot for the mod. Though I'm on mac and don't really know how to implement it, it's definitely a good thing that people care enough about the game to work for it like that)

[popsofctown]

in the grand scheme of things it's actually my mod that is the real problem.

There doesn't need to be just one problem. In this context there is no "the real problem". There are lots of problems, among which I am sure AdamH includes the "deleting tons of files", and saying that since that is a problem, your mod cannot be a problem, is bad logic.

(that said, thanks a lot for the mod. Though I'm on mac and don't really know how to implement it, it's definitely a good thing that people care enough about the game to work for it like that)

I think it was just a turn of phrase, and not an actual desire to truly re-represent Adam's message as "the mod is the only thing bad"

[XerxesPraelor]

in the grand scheme of things it's actually my mod that is the real problem.

There doesn't need to be just one problem. In this context there is no "the real problem". There are lots of problems, among which I am sure AdamH includes the "deleting tons of files", and saying that since that is a problem, your mod cannot be a problem, is bad logic.

(that said, thanks a lot for the mod. Though I'm on mac and don't really know how to implement it, it's definitely a good thing that people care enough about the game to work for it like that)

I think it was just a turn of phrase, and not an actual desire to truly re-represent Adam's message as "the mod is the only thing bad"

I'm saying the turn of phrase itself is pure rhetoric without good logic behind it, not that SCSN would actually say that that was Adam's message.