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Author Topic: [serious] Something we can do to help  (Read 5407 times)

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AdamH

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[serious] Something we can do to help
« on: October 28, 2015, 11:29:30 am »
+5

I put a serious tag on this post because I think it's very important that we stay on-topic here. If you have discussion on this, please continue it in this thread -- the purpose of this thread is for data collection only; other discussion will cause headaches that I don't have the moderator-powers to fix, so please, let's keep discussion on this in that thread:

F.DS has spoken. The one thing most valuable to this community in terms of improving the MF client is being able to play against appropriate opponents on automatch.

I've brought this to MF's attention but it's tough to tell them at this point a thing they can actually do since it's unclear where the problem is. The purpose of this thread is to collect as much data as possible relevant to this issue so that the problem can be pinpointed and MF can actually do something about it.

So here's what we can do to actually help:

If you play on MF, use automatch, and get paired with somebody who you feel doesn't meet the criteria of your search, please post the following information about that game (as much of this as you can come up with):

- The automatch criteria you used
- Your MF name
- Your rating on the MF leaderboard
- Your opponent's MF name
- Your opponent's rating on the MF leaderboard

getting the ratings before the game is ideal, but you might have to check the leaderboard after the game is over to get this info. The important thing is that both ratings are collected at the same time and we know when they were collected.
- Game log

Please do NOT mention why you felt it was an inappropriate matchup beyond saying you felt this person had either too high or too low of a rating to be matched up with you given the criteria you used. We have plenty of threads where we like to point out what we think are misplays and whine about it, let's not let any of that garbage get in the way of actually making Online Dominion a better thing, please?

Another note: if you look at the leaderboard and find out that the leaderboard says the matchup was legit, please still post the information here, it's still helpful!

Thanks in advance for your help collecting data on this. Together, as a community, we can make a positive difference in our experience playing Dominion Online.
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SCSN

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2015, 12:00:46 pm »
+17

You can't find your opponent's rating unless you have the patience to scroll through literary hundreds of pages of that thing they call their leaderboard and read through thousands of names.

I do, however, have experienced countless of games where I get matched against guys with iso level -27 or worse (it goes as low as -72) and gained 0 MF rating points after a win.
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AdamH

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2015, 12:02:09 pm »
0

If you have discussion on this, please continue it in this thread

If you aren't willing to help, then please don't get in the way of people who are.
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SCSN

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2015, 12:05:14 pm »
+13

?

My post was as helpful as it can be. Opponent's ratings can't reasonably be found but I provided the next best thing: experience on iso-based data correlated to my MF rating change.

Maybe you should try gaining this data yourself first before requesting others to do the near impossible and bashing my well-meaning post.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 12:09:28 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2015, 12:06:42 pm »
+9

SCSN's post has information that is relevant to the issue (this data is currently hard to gather, anything MF can do to make it easier will help), and also contains useful data: matchmaking paired him against someone who's MF rating was low enough that a win didn't count for anything. I can't imagine something being more helpful.
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AdamH

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2015, 12:12:46 pm »
0

Discussion continued here

Seriously, do you people not know how to read? This is unbelievable. You should both be ashamed of yourselves. Christ.

I'm so unbelievably angry and disappointed at you both right now. Get over yourselves and actually try and help. Go to that thread. Was I not clear? I thought you people responded to big fonts.

And everyone who upvoted your posts. What in the actual ____ is wrong with you people? I literally can't believe this.
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DG

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2015, 12:45:41 pm »
0

Take it on the chin Adam. I think these responses are right. A lot of people did a lot of chasing about trying to get the original Goko beta right and we just wasted our time and got a rubbish product. Just ask people to link game logs when they think they've played a misautomatched opponent.
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Donald X.

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2015, 12:49:52 pm »
+10

Discussion continued here

Seriously, do you people not know how to read? This is unbelievable. You should both be ashamed of yourselves. Christ.

I'm so unbelievably angry and disappointed at you both right now. Get over yourselves and actually try and help. Go to that thread. Was I not clear? I thought you people responded to big fonts.

And everyone who upvoted your posts. What in the actual ____ is wrong with you people? I literally can't believe this.
Quoting off topic post! There's another thread for that dude, didn't you read the OP? It's funny because it's true.

In my experience, having threads with harsh limits as to what can be posted in them correlates well with forums that die because they're no fun anymore. Do your part for the forums: allow off-topic posts! And you know, if you hadn't immediately made a stink about a post making a reasonable comment, you wouldn't have all of these other posts in your thread.

Posting this in your verboten thread for emphasis! Being me for additional emphasis; I can't help that. If you like forums, let go of your desire for strictly moderated threads, full of only posts with the purest intentions. These threads are forum killers.

(ponder,darling,these busted statues
of yon motheaten forum be aware


You can't find your opponent's rating unless you have the patience to scroll through literary hundreds of pages of that thing they call their leaderboard and read through thousands of names.
You could ask in chat. They can't see it either but they may have an idea.
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GendoIkari

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2015, 12:52:13 pm »
0

You can't find your opponent's rating unless you have the patience to scroll through literary hundreds of pages of that thing they call their leaderboard and read through thousands of names.
You could ask in chat. They can't see it either but they may have an idea.

Recommend to ask in chat at the start of the game. If you ask after your opponent has started doing things that seem to you like bad moves, then it could sound rude or condescending.
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Witherweaver

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2015, 12:56:21 pm »
+3

In my experience, having threads with harsh limits as to what can be posted in them correlates well with forums that die because they're no fun anymore.

There is another forum about making fun.  Let's not bring fun into the f.ds forum.
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mpsprs

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2015, 01:01:19 pm »
+1

I did actually check one game where I matched against someone whose skill level seemed quite a bit below me.  I definitely used the within 1000 option.  I don't remember the name of my opponent, but I do remember that their MF rating barely fit within that 1000 point window. 

But it took me about as long to get that single data point as it took me to play the game.  I agree with the aim of this thread, but unless there is a better way to search the MF ratings, I don't anticipate digging through MF's ratings to find more numerical data points.

Beyond Awesome

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2015, 05:34:59 pm »
+1

Okay, suggestions to help the rating system

Don't count bot games for pro ratings

Don't count custom kingdoms for pro games (I don't know if they do this)

When paired with an opponent, show opponent, their name and rating and option to decline a game against said opponent

A more extreme suggestion, but perhaps needed, reset the ratings for everyone to the last Goko ratings. Reason: A lot of players were affected by rating decay who did not play on the new client. Ratings look very wonky right now for many players
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popsofctown

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2015, 05:55:50 pm »
+3

This is not some bizarre freaky bug where occasionally the game freezes while a Throne Room is resolving and then destroys the log, so we as beta testers need to helpfully provide maximum info to help.  It is a matchmaking system that literally does nothing, and can't possibly have passed any reasonable test to verify that it even occasionally does something.  The frequency of well paired games is not high enough for users to even SUSPECT that the matchmaker DOES ANYTHING using the rating information it has been fed. 

You don't need to find a bug incident for these guys.  The bug manifests every single time you ever play the game.  If two people are correctly paired with similar ratings, we have no reason to believe that doesn't happen due to random chance or arbitrary logic.


I guess technically I could play a single game and log all the data from that game, and then that game could serve as a bug incident case (even if it randomly paired me with a player of equal rating, it would still count, investigating it would work every bit as well since there's virtually no doubt that in stepping through the code the ratings are discarded or misuesed in matchmaking.)  But since I can go load a single game and record data just as well as an MF employee can load a single game and record data, and I'm not on the payroll, I think it's more appropriate for the MF employee to do it.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2015, 06:19:05 pm »
+1

This is not some bizarre freaky bug where occasionally the game freezes while a Throne Room is resolving and then destroys the log, so we as beta testers need to helpfully provide maximum info to help.  It is a matchmaking system that literally does nothing, and can't possibly have passed any reasonable test to verify that it even occasionally does something.  The frequency of well paired games is not high enough for users to even SUSPECT that the matchmaker DOES ANYTHING using the rating information it has been fed. 

You don't need to find a bug incident for these guys.  The bug manifests every single time you ever play the game.  If two people are correctly paired with similar ratings, we have no reason to believe that doesn't happen due to random chance or arbitrary logic.


I guess technically I could play a single game and log all the data from that game, and then that game could serve as a bug incident case (even if it randomly paired me with a player of equal rating, it would still count, investigating it would work every bit as well since there's virtually no doubt that in stepping through the code the ratings are discarded or misuesed in matchmaking.)  But since I can go load a single game and record data just as well as an MF employee can load a single game and record data, and I'm not on the payroll, I think it's more appropriate for the MF employee to do it.

Almost all of the games I've played on the new server are against players as weak as me. If you guys only play weak players a quarter of the time (even if that's too much for you) the rating system is doing something.
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popsofctown

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2015, 06:37:56 pm »
+1

My win/loss record is like 93/15.  A quarter of the time is a better approximation of how often I'm correctly matched.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2015, 07:02:33 pm »
+4

I played someone just now with the "never below 1000" option on, after the match my rating was 5362, his was 3285. So that option doesn't work.
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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2015, 07:10:58 pm »
0

I played someone just now with the "never below 1000" option on, after the match my rating was 5362, his was 3285. So that option doesn't work.

That could mean your ratings were within 1000 beforehand, and they were not within 1000 after the rating update. (Yes, the gap is 2000, but maybe the other player had very few games.)
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: [serious] Something we can do to help
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2015, 07:14:06 pm »
+3

I played someone just now with the "never below 1000" option on, after the match my rating was 5362, his was 3285. So that option doesn't work.

That could mean your ratings were within 1000 beforehand, and they were not within 1000 after the rating update. (Yes, the gap is 2000, but maybe the other player had very few games.)

I asked him during the game and he said "I think it's high 3000s". He has played 263 games. What you are suggesting is impossible. I was at 5300 something before the game. I know you didn't know all this, but even if he had 0 games it wouldn't change that much.
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