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Author Topic: Hearthstone's tracker problem  (Read 3887 times)

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blueblimp

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Hearthstone's tracker problem
« on: October 25, 2015, 07:51:40 pm »
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I was reminded of this because of (yet again) discussions about Dominion VP counting.

In my opinion, Hearthstone has a much more unfair tracking situation than Dominion ever had. Hearthstone is playable on several platforms (Windows, Mac, iOS, Android) but the trackers can't exist on mobile and barely exist on Mac (last time I tried one, it didn't work for me). Blizzard has given the OK to trackers, so although you can't use them at in-person tournaments as far as I know, there's no reason not to use a tracker on ladder. Unless, of course, you can't because of the platform you play on.

I'm not arguing that Blizzard is doing anything wrong here. I assume (without evidence) that most competitive Hearthstone players play on Windows and they all have equal benefit from trackers. Having trackers available makes the experience better for those players. If you play casually on mobile, maybe you don't care if you're unfairly disadvantaged by lack of tracker. Anyway, it's not like Blizzard can realistically ban trackers given how cheaty the Hearthstone community can be (Personman has nothing on 'em), and it'd be a big UI headache to build a tracker into the official client, so that's never going to happen. Am I happy playing sans tracker? No, but I'm glad that Hearthstone is available cross-platform at all, so I can't complain overall.

I just think it's funny how drama sometimes erupts on f.ds over trackers that arguably give similar or less advantage than the Hearthstone trackers, are available on all desktop platforms (not the case in Hearthstone), tell the opponent that the tracker is being used (not the case in Hearthstone), offer tracking functionality to the opponent even if the opponent isn't running a tracker (not the case in Hearthstone), and either can be turned off by opponent request or advertise their presence in the game name or automatch settings (also not the case in Hearthstone).
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 07:55:12 pm by blueblimp »
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Haddock

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 09:05:52 pm »
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The idea is that hearthstone devs are fine with pen and paper tracking (which is banned according to strict Dominion rules, but allowed in hearthstone; after all how would you enforce it?), and that trackers just make that easier. You could get out pen and paper for your mobile device!

I mostly use it for stat tracking anyway, at least in constructed. It is v. Useful in arena since you usually can't know your deck as well.
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M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
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popsofctown

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2015, 10:23:28 pm »
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I installed a tracker a couple days ago. If you get more value out of Hearthstone deck tracker than dominion full deck tracking in a wishing well game, please teach me your ways.  I'm having trouble getting much value out of the extra information.  I plan to primarily use it to figure out whether I have 9 or 10 cards in hand as handlock, which is totally something that should be handled by the client itself.
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blueblimp

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 12:02:45 am »
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I installed a tracker a couple days ago. If you get more value out of Hearthstone deck tracker than dominion full deck tracking in a wishing well game, please teach me your ways.  I'm having trouble getting much value out of the extra information.  I plan to primarily use it to figure out whether I have 9 or 10 cards in hand as handlock, which is totally something that should be handled by the client itself.
I can't speak from actually having used one, but there have been times in Control Warriors mirrors where I really wanted to know how many Shield Slams and Executes had been used on both sides, and couldn't remember for sure.

But more generally, in any situation where you're playing to your outs, knowing exactly what those outs are is pretty helpful. I don't think deck tracking alone is that amazing for Wishing Well (vs if you had draw deck vs discard tracking, which would be nuts), because it's not that hard to guess what the most common card in your deck is, given that it's usually copper and eventually becomes either well or maybe some village, and even if you pick wrong it's a pretty small % that it matters. I remember the greatest use for deck trackers being in Ambassador games because you badly want to know how your copper and estate counts are doing, in particular.
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qmech

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 04:19:46 am »
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I installed a tracker a couple days ago. If you get more value out of Hearthstone deck tracker than dominion full deck tracking in a wishing well game, please teach me your ways.  I'm having trouble getting much value out of the extra information.  I plan to primarily use it to figure out whether I have 9 or 10 cards in hand as handlock, which is totally something that should be handled by the client itself.

Is the mana cost of the leftmost card in your hand below the edge of the board?  Then you have 10 cards in hand; if not, you don't.
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popsofctown

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 09:15:29 am »
+1

I installed a tracker a couple days ago. If you get more value out of Hearthstone deck tracker than dominion full deck tracking in a wishing well game, please teach me your ways.  I'm having trouble getting much value out of the extra information.  I plan to primarily use it to figure out whether I have 9 or 10 cards in hand as handlock, which is totally something that should be handled by the client itself.
I can't speak from actually having used one, but there have been times in Control Warriors mirrors where I really wanted to know how many Shield Slams and Executes had been used on both sides, and couldn't remember for sure.

But more generally, in any situation where you're playing to your outs, knowing exactly what those outs are is pretty helpful. I don't think deck tracking alone is that amazing for Wishing Well (vs if you had draw deck vs discard tracking, which would be nuts), because it's not that hard to guess what the most common card in your deck is, given that it's usually copper and eventually becomes either well or maybe some village, and even if you pick wrong it's a pretty small % that it matters. I remember the greatest use for deck trackers being in Ambassador games because you badly want to know how your copper and estate counts are doing, in particular.

I meant draw deck vs discard tracking.  Which I guess no one has ever implemented, but it is derived information, so you could. 

The shield slams and executes thing makes sense, I guess, but it seems like an extreme case.  Control Warrior hasn't been a tier 1 deck anyway until maybe now as a consequence of the patron nerf (Demonlock handlock was doing its niche better before the nerf with facehunter horrified out of existence).  Most decks are way more braindead than control warrior, and as a result they reward deck tracking less.  You don't need to count fireballs, the game will be over when you count to two turn 8 against Mechmage.  Don't need to count force roars.  Secradin is all about questions and not about answers (pun intended), so it doesn't matter if you remember whether they're out of Shredders or whatever.  Aldor Peacekeeper and Consecration are sort of answers, but the uncertainty of how many they are running can get mixed it with the uncertainty of how many you remember seeing them play so it all comes out in the wash.

I mean.  I really wish decktracking or decisionmaking had much impact on Hearthstone in general.  I've been pretty dissatisfied with it lately.
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chairs

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 01:53:22 pm »
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The only tracker I'm familiar with is HearthArena's "tracker" that shows the cards left in your deck, but doesn't track what your opponent played (since the 2-of rule doesn't exist in Arena).

Are there other trackers I should be considering?

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2015, 02:13:05 pm »
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The uncontroversial and lightweight one is Track-o-Bot which records your results so that you can see your win/loss record for each match-up.  It also records which cards have been played so you can work out the deck archetypes later.  This is very like an automated Heartharena for laddering.

There are also much more complete trackers that overlay tracked information on the game screen.  You can see a list of cards played by each side, as well as which cards in your opponent's hand were drawn on which turn: nothing that you couldn't work out yourself in principle, although in practice I think few people do.  I have not used one of these, but could be tempted to give one a go.  Does anybody have any recommendations?
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Haddock

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2015, 06:46:07 am »
+1

The uncontroversial and lightweight one is Track-o-Bot which records your results so that you can see your win/loss record for each match-up.  It also records which cards have been played so you can work out the deck archetypes later.  This is very like an automated Heartharena for laddering.

There are also much more complete trackers that overlay tracked information on the game screen.  You can see a list of cards played by each side, as well as which cards in your opponent's hand were drawn on which turn: nothing that you couldn't work out yourself in principle, although in practice I think few people do.  I have not used one of these, but could be tempted to give one a go.  Does anybody have any recommendations?
Hearthstone Deck Tracker (original name, I know) is really pretty good.  If you're in the habit of keeping track of yours and your opponent's standard removal spells, you'll probably find it makes very little difference in constructed. (The other thing is remembering whether the coin has been used, which is really something the Hearthstone client should deal with; the Coin should never have been a card, it should be physical somehow, like an item resting on the board or something.  I don't know why I think that, I just do.)

But it's super useful in arena.

https://github.com/Epix37/Hearthstone-Deck-Tracker
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

popsofctown

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2015, 09:38:24 am »
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The uncontroversial and lightweight one is Track-o-Bot which records your results so that you can see your win/loss record for each match-up.  It also records which cards have been played so you can work out the deck archetypes later.  This is very like an automated Heartharena for laddering.

There are also much more complete trackers that overlay tracked information on the game screen.  You can see a list of cards played by each side, as well as which cards in your opponent's hand were drawn on which turn: nothing that you couldn't work out yourself in principle, although in practice I think few people do.  I have not used one of these, but could be tempted to give one a go.  Does anybody have any recommendations?
Hearthstone Deck Tracker (original name, I know) is really pretty good.  If you're in the habit of keeping track of yours and your opponent's standard removal spells, you'll probably find it makes very little difference in constructed. (The other thing is remembering whether the coin has been used, which is really something the Hearthstone client should deal with; the Coin should never have been a card, it should be physical somehow, like an item resting on the board or something.  I don't know why I think that, I just do.)

But it's super useful in arena.

https://github.com/Epix37/Hearthstone-Deck-Tracker
Mana Wyrm was inoffensive when the Coin first game out, but turn three Flame Waker coin Arcane Missiles is making people rethink it
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ycz6

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2015, 01:27:17 pm »
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The uncontroversial and lightweight one is Track-o-Bot which records your results so that you can see your win/loss record for each match-up.  It also records which cards have been played so you can work out the deck archetypes later.  This is very like an automated Heartharena for laddering.

There are also much more complete trackers that overlay tracked information on the game screen.  You can see a list of cards played by each side, as well as which cards in your opponent's hand were drawn on which turn: nothing that you couldn't work out yourself in principle, although in practice I think few people do.  I have not used one of these, but could be tempted to give one a go.  Does anybody have any recommendations?
Hearthstone Deck Tracker (original name, I know) is really pretty good.  If you're in the habit of keeping track of yours and your opponent's standard removal spells, you'll probably find it makes very little difference in constructed. (The other thing is remembering whether the coin has been used, which is really something the Hearthstone client should deal with; the Coin should never have been a card, it should be physical somehow, like an item resting on the board or something.  I don't know why I think that, I just do.)

But it's super useful in arena.

https://github.com/Epix37/Hearthstone-Deck-Tracker
Mana Wyrm was inoffensive when the Coin first game out, but turn three Flame Waker coin Arcane Missiles is making people rethink it
...what?
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Awaclus

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2015, 01:40:55 pm »
+1

the Coin should never have been a card, it should be physical somehow, like an item resting on the board or something.
Mana Wyrm was inoffensive when the Coin first game out, but turn three Flame Waker coin Arcane Missiles is making people rethink it
...what?

Does it make more sense now?

chairs

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2015, 01:56:39 pm »
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When Mana Wyrm was introduced, the fact that the Coin is a -1 cost spell was relatively negligible.

However, the Coin as a -1 cost spell means that the interaction with Flame Waker and Arcane Missiles on turn 3 is pretty oppressive (5 1-damage random shots in a single turn, doable on Turn 3).

markusin

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2015, 02:28:49 pm »
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When Mana Wyrm was introduced, the fact that the Coin is a -1 cost spell was relatively negligible.

However, the Coin as a -1 cost spell means that the interaction with Flame Waker and Arcane Missiles on turn 3 is pretty oppressive (5 1-damage random shots in a single turn, doable on Turn 3).

It's 7 1-damage random shots because Flameaker procs off Arcane Missiles and the Coin. Plus any Mana Wyrms gain +2 attack.
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popsofctown

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 02:29:41 pm »
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When Mana Wyrm was introduced, the fact that the Coin is a -1 cost spell was relatively negligible.

However, the Coin as a -1 cost spell means that the interaction with Flame Waker and Arcane Missiles on turn 3 is pretty oppressive (5 1-damage random shots in a single turn, doable on Turn 3).
It's 7.  So OP, your brain wants to miscount it.
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popsofctown

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2015, 02:30:36 pm »
+1

Thanks for the correction Awaclus.  Although I heard you are famous for unhelpfulness so I can't help but be concerned that your account is compromised.
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chairs

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2015, 02:36:50 pm »
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When Mana Wyrm was introduced, the fact that the Coin is a -1 cost spell was relatively negligible.

However, the Coin as a -1 cost spell means that the interaction with Flame Waker and Arcane Missiles on turn 3 is pretty oppressive (5 1-damage random shots in a single turn, doable on Turn 3).
It's 7.  So OP, your brain wants to miscount it.

For some reason I thought flamewaker was only 1 shot per spell, not 2. My mistake.

Awaclus

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2015, 02:46:58 pm »
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Thanks for the correction Awaclus.  Although I heard you are famous for unhelpfulness so I can't help but be concerned that your account is compromised.

I believe my reputation of being "unhelpful" comes from mafia games, where I believe it is good play to not explain the reasons why I'm voting for the people I'm voting.

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2015, 02:49:10 pm »
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Thanks for the correction Awaclus.  Although I heard you are famous for unhelpfulness so I can't help but be concerned that your account is compromised.

I believe my reputation of being "unhelpful" comes from mafia games, where I believe it is good play to not explain the reasons why I'm voting for the people I'm voting.
That sounds like something someone who stole your account would say.
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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2015, 03:30:22 pm »
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Thanks for the correction Awaclus.  Although I heard you are famous for unhelpfulness so I can't help but be concerned that your account is compromised.

I believe my reputation of being "unhelpful" comes from mafia games, where I believe it is good play to not explain the reasons why I'm voting for the people I'm voting.

And where everyone else believes D1 Awaclus lynches might be the best policy in Mafia because of it? ;)

Awaclus

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2015, 03:51:01 pm »
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And where everyone else believes D1 Awaclus lynches might be the best policy in Mafia because of it? ;)

Nobody believes that.

blueblimp

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2015, 06:16:54 pm »
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Mana Wyrm Coin Mirror Image has always been pretty nasty, from well before release. Or for P1, Mana Wyrm into turn 2 Frostbolt. In one of my first ranked games, my opponent played Mana Wyrm and I thought it was pretty OP. (I would have mostly had basic cards at the time!)
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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2015, 12:23:16 am »
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Mana Wyrm Coin Mirror Image has always been pretty nasty, from well before release. Or for P1, Mana Wyrm into turn 2 Frostbolt. In one of my first ranked games, my opponent played Mana Wyrm and I thought it was pretty OP. (I would have mostly had basic cards at the time!)

I think everyone knows Mana Wyrm is OP.  We were talking about coin.  But since listed a P1 opening for Mana Wyrm that is almost as good as the P2 opening for Mana Wyrm (if not better) it seems like you're on our page about it.
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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2015, 09:25:48 am »
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Necro a bit here, but I'd forgotten to mention the other thing about the coin being a spell, which was freaking ROGUES, man!  Not really an issue now (maybe somewhat in arena still), but it helps the combo trigger a lot, and was often crazy good in the classic Miracle Rogue nonsense. 

(Nowadays I think it's hilarious how quickly Gadgetzan was nerfed, Gadgetzan Miracle Rogue was not nearly as crazy as, say, Patron from what I remember - then again I didn't have cards back then and never climbed far up the ladder.)
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

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Re: Hearthstone's tracker problem
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2015, 12:40:06 pm »
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I also don't like that Coin triggers opponent's Troggs, Counterspell, gets screwed by Loatheb, counts as a card in your hand for the 10-card limit and stuff like Divine Favor and Twilight Drake, etc.
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