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Author Topic: Wording Challenge(Again!): Pickpocket  (Read 1385 times)

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Gubump

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Wording Challenge(Again!): Pickpocket
« on: October 24, 2015, 05:04:48 pm »
+1

Pickpocket:
+$1
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and trashes a Treasure costing up to $2 from it that you choose. You may gain any or all of the trashed cards, putting one of them into your hand.

Setup: Add the Penny pile to the Supply and replace one of each player’s starting Coppers with a Penny.
Cost: $4
Action – Attack

For reference,

Penny:
$1
+1 Buy
Put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your turn, you may call this to draw a card then discard two cards.
Cost: $2
Treasure – Reserve

^There are 16 of these, but you only put 10 in the pile (the other 6 are for starting Pennies w/ Pickpocket).

FAQ: Pennies are always an 11th kingdom pile if Pickpocket is in the Supply.

Basically a thief that steals Treasures directly from players' hands and puts one of the gained cards into yours, but can only steal Treasures costing up to $2. The problem is, even though the effect is simple, it's too wordy. It has 63 words, compared to Prince and Possession's 53 words. How do I shorten it without changing its effect too much?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 11:35:40 am by Gubump »
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Wording Challenge(Again!): Pickpocket
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2015, 07:15:11 pm »
0

On a completely unrelated note, you should get a unique profile picture.

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faust

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Re: Wording Challenge(Again!): Pickpocket
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2015, 04:23:52 am »
0

Idea for new phrasing:

Pickpocket:
+$1
Each other player reveals his hand and you put a Treasure costing up to $2 from it into your hand.

Setup: Add the Penny pile to the Supply and replace one of each player’s starting Coppers with a Penny.
Cost: $4
Action – Attack

It's stronger (does not restrict to 5 or more cards hands), but also weaker (you have to gain all the treasures). I don't think wording it this way makes it too strong - it's hard-countering Fool's Gold, but that's not a bad thing. It doesn't scale too well with multiplayer, but no Thief variant does.

EDIT: Fixed for shortness.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 04:37:57 am by faust »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Gubump

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Re: Wording Challenge(Again!): Pickpocket
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 09:08:50 am »
0

Idea for new phrasing:

Pickpocket:
+$1
Each other player reveals his hand and you put a Treasure costing up to $2 from it into your hand.

Setup: Add the Penny pile to the Supply and replace one of each player’s starting Coppers with a Penny.
Cost: $4
Action – Attack

It's stronger (does not restrict to 5 or more cards hands), but also weaker (you have to gain all the treasures). I don't think wording it this way makes it too strong - it's hard-countering Fool's Gold, but that's not a bad thing. It doesn't scale too well with multiplayer, but no Thief variant does.

EDIT: Fixed for shortness.

Both of those are things that I was specifically avoiding. There's a reason that every discard attack has a limit (down-to-x, players with 5 or more cards in hand) or a way to get out of it (Torturer). And while it's true that Thief scales badly with more players, your wording suggestion makes it scale way too badly in multiplayer. If you're playing a 2-player game and it hits, you'll get $2, which is balanced at $4 in combination with its weak thief ability; if you hit everybody in a 4-player game, however, you'll get $4, which makes it stronger than Gold+-w/-bonus for the low, low price of $4!

Note: "Both of those" refers to the lack of a discard limit and putting all of the gained cards into hand.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 09:12:51 am by Gubump »
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Wording Challenge(Again!): Pickpocket
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 09:13:46 am »
0

I think that Lastfootnote once tried a fairly similar card to this for enterprise and then ultimately retired it.
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faust

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Re: Wording Challenge(Again!): Pickpocket
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 12:09:26 pm »
+1

Idea for new phrasing:

Pickpocket:
+$1
Each other player reveals his hand and you put a Treasure costing up to $2 from it into your hand.

Setup: Add the Penny pile to the Supply and replace one of each player’s starting Coppers with a Penny.
Cost: $4
Action – Attack

It's stronger (does not restrict to 5 or more cards hands), but also weaker (you have to gain all the treasures). I don't think wording it this way makes it too strong - it's hard-countering Fool's Gold, but that's not a bad thing. It doesn't scale too well with multiplayer, but no Thief variant does.

EDIT: Fixed for shortness.

Both of those are things that I was specifically avoiding. There's a reason that every discard attack has a limit (down-to-x, players with 5 or more cards in hand) or a way to get out of it (Torturer). And while it's true that Thief scales badly with more players, your wording suggestion makes it scale way too badly in multiplayer. If you're playing a 2-player game and it hits, you'll get $2, which is balanced at $4 in combination with its weak thief ability; if you hit everybody in a 4-player game, however, you'll get $4, which makes it stronger than Gold+-w/-bonus for the low, low price of $4!

Note: "Both of those" refers to the lack of a discard limit and putting all of the gained cards into hand.

I don't quite understand... doesn't your version already allow you to put all trashed cards into your hand?

I think the hand-size restriction is unnecessary because mostly you'll be trashing Copper and thus doing your opponent a favor. There's only a very small amount of games in which you want lots of Copper, and in these games it will be hard to connect multiple Pickpockets. Show me a board where you think this would be too strong.

Also I don't think it's a problem to put them all into your hand. At this point, it's just a Beggar with a +1$ (and without the reaction), and Beggar costs $2 and is a fairly weak $2.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Gubump

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Re: Wording Challenge(Again!): Pickpocket
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 03:20:48 pm »
0

Idea for new phrasing:

Pickpocket:
+$1
Each other player reveals his hand and you put a Treasure costing up to $2 from it into your hand.

Setup: Add the Penny pile to the Supply and replace one of each player’s starting Coppers with a Penny.
Cost: $4
Action – Attack

It's stronger (does not restrict to 5 or more cards hands), but also weaker (you have to gain all the treasures). I don't think wording it this way makes it too strong - it's hard-countering Fool's Gold, but that's not a bad thing. It doesn't scale too well with multiplayer, but no Thief variant does.

EDIT: Fixed for shortness.

Both of those are things that I was specifically avoiding. There's a reason that every discard attack has a limit (down-to-x, players with 5 or more cards in hand) or a way to get out of it (Torturer). And while it's true that Thief scales badly with more players, your wording suggestion makes it scale way too badly in multiplayer. If you're playing a 2-player game and it hits, you'll get $2, which is balanced at $4 in combination with its weak thief ability; if you hit everybody in a 4-player game, however, you'll get $4, which makes it stronger than Gold+-w/-bonus for the low, low price of $4!

Note: "Both of those" refers to the lack of a discard limit and putting all of the gained cards into hand.

I don't quite understand... doesn't your version already allow you to put all trashed cards into your hand?

putting one of them into your hand.

I think the hand-size restriction is unnecessary because mostly you'll be trashing Copper and thus doing your opponent a favor. There's only a very small amount of games in which you want lots of Copper, and in these games it will be hard to connect multiple Pickpockets. Show me a board where you think this would be too strong.

Also I don't think it's a problem to put them all into your hand. At this point, it's just a Beggar with a +1$ (and without the reaction), and Beggar costs $2 and is a fairly weak $2.

Well, when you put it that way, it isn't actually that strong, but my point that it scales too badly with more players still stands.
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trivialknot

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Re: Wording Challenge(Again!): Pickpocket
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2015, 11:44:43 pm »
0

It looks like Cutpurse, except that it steals copper.  Cutpurse is already mediocre, does not have a hand size restriction, and stealing copper is usually just bad.  Not to mention that with cutpurses, you'd prefer that your opponents keep their coppers so they have things to discard.  Anyway, I think you could afford to drop the hand size restriction and also buff it in some other way.

I might word it:
"Each other player trashes a treasure from their hand costing up to $2, or reveals a hand with none. You may gain any or all of the trashed cards, putting one of them into your hand."

But then they'd choose the treasure, instead of you.  This wouldn't matter most of the time if it weren't for the pennies.
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