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Author Topic: New Card: Search Party  (Read 4127 times)

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Gubump

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New Card: Search Party
« on: October 21, 2015, 10:56:28 pm »
+9

Search Party:
+1 Action
+$1
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one of them into your hand and discard the other.
Cost: $5
Action

This has been playtested, albeit not very much. I plan to playtest it more, but it will be a while because my parents are going on vacation tomorrow, and my brother is rarely both willing and able to play.

This is an interesting card. In the first game, it seemed to be strong enough to cost $6 (everybody was buying it whenever possible, sometimes even over Gold), but in the 2nd, it seemed to be about the right strength for $5 (we mostly bought Count over it). I think this is probably my favorite card among the ones I've made.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 11:01:18 pm by Gubump »
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2015, 12:39:53 am »
0

Love it. It does sound like the strongest $5 Peddler.
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LastFootnote

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2015, 12:51:26 am »
+3

I like how simple it is. Seems fairly unique. I wouldn't call it exciting, but not every card needs to be! Nice work.
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Gubump

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2015, 09:28:17 am »
0

Thanks, guys, I'm glad you like it! :)

P.S.: Do you think you could make a mockup of this one, LFN?
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LastFootnote

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2015, 11:41:39 am »
0

Thanks, guys, I'm glad you like it! :)

P.S.: Do you think you could make a mockup of this one, LFN?
Yes, if you find some art for it. That's the most tedious part of mocking up cards.
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popsofctown

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2015, 11:51:19 am »
0

I found a Search Party

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????
??????????????????
??????????????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????
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LastFootnote

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2015, 02:40:41 pm »
0

Thanks, guys, I'm glad you like it! :)

P.S.: Do you think you could make a mockup of this one, LFN?
Yes, if you find some art for it. That's the most tedious part of mocking up cards.

Never mind, I found art and made the image. For some reason I can't upload it to imgur right now, though. I'll try again later.
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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2015, 04:39:34 pm »
+7

« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 04:41:10 pm by LastFootnote »
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Deadlock39

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2015, 04:58:31 pm »
0

This is surprisingly simple (and awesome) for a variant card.  I find myself thinking of several cards that are slight variations of this...

Removing the coin makes it similar to the, too strong for $4, sifting Lab from Donald's outtakes, but the change from draw 2 discard 1 to drawing one of the top two cards should weaken it enough that it works at $4 or possibly less.

You can also change it to put the other card back on top of your deck, which makes the effect only very marginally better than +1 card. That card might also be good at $4. With that change and removing the +$1, it feels like a Pearl Diver variant to me.

Anyway, just random thoughts this card provoked.

GendoIkari

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2015, 05:31:32 pm »
0

This is surprisingly simple (and awesome) for a variant card.  I find myself thinking of several cards that are slight variations of this...

Removing the coin makes it similar to the, too strong for $4, sifting Lab from Donald's outtakes, but the change from draw 2 discard 1 to drawing one of the top two cards should weaken it enough that it works at $4 or possibly less.

You can also change it to put the other card back on top of your deck, which makes the effect only very marginally better than +1 card. That card might also be good at $4. With that change and removing the +$1, it feels like a Pearl Diver variant to me.

Anyway, just random thoughts this card provoked.

I thought about putting the other card back instead of discarding it also. I figured it would make it too weak to be a , yet at it would be a strictly-better-than-Peddler for , which while not technically not ok, still probably not a good idea.
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popsofctown

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2015, 05:44:52 pm »
0

This is surprisingly simple (and awesome) for a variant card.  I find myself thinking of several cards that are slight variations of this...

Removing the coin makes it similar to the, too strong for $4, sifting Lab from Donald's outtakes, but the change from draw 2 discard 1 to drawing one of the top two cards should weaken it enough that it works at $4 or possibly less.

You can also change it to put the other card back on top of your deck, which makes the effect only very marginally better than +1 card. That card might also be good at $4. With that change and removing the +$1, it feels like a Pearl Diver variant to me.

Anyway, just random thoughts this card provoked.

I thought about putting the other card back instead of discarding it also. I figured it would make it too weak to be a , yet at it would be a strictly-better-than-Peddler for , which while not technically not ok, still probably not a good idea.

People always phrase it as "strictly better than Peddler at 4", but really the problem is that it's strictly better than Silver at 4 (barring dead draw, which is not broad enough to justify a strictly better situation with Silver, which is always present).  Even decks that want to pile out Duchies have a theoretical average coin value of 1$ per card, so you can't justify Silver over 4$ Peddler.
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Fragasnap

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2015, 08:57:39 pm »
0

I've played with this card before though of different name. It is strong, if a bit boring.

Problematic is the function of playing the card which becomes very drawn out as it requires manipulating two cards outside of your standard hand. When multiple of these get played in a row it bogs the pace of the game down to little benefit (of course not as badly as Hunting Party). I like co0kieL0rd's similar Bastion better.
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Gubump

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2015, 09:15:11 pm »
0

This is surprisingly simple (and awesome) for a variant card.  I find myself thinking of several cards that are slight variations of this...

Removing the coin makes it similar to the, too strong for $4, sifting Lab from Donald's outtakes, but the change from draw 2 discard 1 to drawing one of the top two cards should weaken it enough that it works at $4 or possibly less.

A coinless Search Party is to Raze what Laboratory is to Apprentice. Since Apprentice costs the same as Laboratory, the coinless Search Party would most likely likewise cost $2, the same as Raze.
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Deadlock39

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2015, 10:39:40 pm »
0

That is pretty interesting. I'm not super familiar with the Adventures cards yet, so I didn't realize how closely it compared to Raze. My gut says it is worth more than $2 still, but I don't know why.  I feel like the version that has to put the other card back compares pretty decently with Pearl Diver and is definitely weaker. I don't know what that is worth.

Gubump

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2015, 10:55:45 pm »
0

I found a Search Party

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????
??????????????????
??????????????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????

I don't get it.
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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2015, 08:08:16 am »
0

I've played with this card before though of different name. It is strong, if a bit boring.

Problematic is the function of playing the card which becomes very drawn out as it requires manipulating two cards outside of your standard hand. When multiple of these get played in a row it bogs the pace of the game down to little benefit (of course not as badly as Hunting Party). I like co0kieL0rd's similar Bastion better.
I know this is bad, but playing IRL if there are lots of things that involve manipulating cards out-of-hand, I tend just to place my hand down face up on the table and work like that for a while.  Most of the time it's not going to matter if people see it, particularly since we're a fairly casual dominion group.
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yuma

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2015, 08:57:32 am »
0

I like the card and don't think it necessarily needs a change at all, but as others have said it isn't really exciting. But not all cards necessarily need to be.

One change that I thought of could make it a little bit more original while keeping the general concept.

Quote
Search Party:
+1 Action
+$1
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one of them into your hand and the other at the bottom of your deck.
Cost: $5
Action

This would make the card a bit weaker in the beginning (less deck cycling and less sifting of estates/coppers into the discard pile) and a bit better in the mid to end game as cycling becomes a little less important and overall deck quality improves so that you can ensure that if you draw two good cards one won't just be discarded and have to wait for the reshuffle.

Plus I don't think there is another card--I am not super familiar with Adventures--that deals with the bottom of the deck aside from Pearl Diver is there?

But I don't think the card necessarily needs this change, but only if you want it to be a little less simple.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2015, 09:39:03 am »
+2

This is surprisingly simple (and awesome) for a variant card.  I find myself thinking of several cards that are slight variations of this...

Removing the coin makes it similar to the, too strong for $4, sifting Lab from Donald's outtakes, but the change from draw 2 discard 1 to drawing one of the top two cards should weaken it enough that it works at $4 or possibly less.

You can also change it to put the other card back on top of your deck, which makes the effect only very marginally better than +1 card. That card might also be good at $4. With that change and removing the +$1, it feels like a Pearl Diver variant to me.

Anyway, just random thoughts this card provoked.

I thought about putting the other card back instead of discarding it also. I figured it would make it too weak to be a , yet at it would be a strictly-better-than-Peddler for , which while not technically not ok, still probably not a good idea.

People always phrase it as "strictly better than Peddler at 4", but really the problem is that it's strictly better than Silver at 4 (barring dead draw, which is not broad enough to justify a strictly better situation with Silver, which is always present).  Even decks that want to pile out Duchies have a theoretical average coin value of 1$ per card, so you can't justify Silver over 4$ Peddler.

I definitely disagree with this. Average coin value or not, there's plenty of times where is better than + 1 card. Mostly whenever you need the money now and the card you get isn't something that gives you money.

And even if it were a non-terminal action that gave , terminal draw is a huge thing. Yes a Peddler is going to be better than a Silver most of the time, but it doesn't obsolete Silver.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 09:40:23 am by GendoIkari »
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popsofctown

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2015, 10:26:41 am »
0

This is surprisingly simple (and awesome) for a variant card.  I find myself thinking of several cards that are slight variations of this...

Removing the coin makes it similar to the, too strong for $4, sifting Lab from Donald's outtakes, but the change from draw 2 discard 1 to drawing one of the top two cards should weaken it enough that it works at $4 or possibly less.

You can also change it to put the other card back on top of your deck, which makes the effect only very marginally better than +1 card. That card might also be good at $4. With that change and removing the +$1, it feels like a Pearl Diver variant to me.

Anyway, just random thoughts this card provoked.

I thought about putting the other card back instead of discarding it also. I figured it would make it too weak to be a , yet at it would be a strictly-better-than-Peddler for , which while not technically not ok, still probably not a good idea.

People always phrase it as "strictly better than Peddler at 4", but really the problem is that it's strictly better than Silver at 4 (barring dead draw, which is not broad enough to justify a strictly better situation with Silver, which is always present).  Even decks that want to pile out Duchies have a theoretical average coin value of 1$ per card, so you can't justify Silver over 4$ Peddler.

I definitely disagree with this. Average coin value or not, there's plenty of times where is better than + 1 card. Mostly whenever you need the money now and the card you get isn't something that gives you money.

And even if it were a non-terminal action that gave , terminal draw is a huge thing. Yes a Peddler is going to be better than a Silver most of the time, but it doesn't obsolete Silver.
It's a strictly better buy, than Silver, not a strictly better play.  Gold is a strictly better play than Silver, and that's obviously not a problem.

Yes, if you have 3 Silvers, an Estate, and one other card in hand, and the top card of your deck is Estate, you would rather have a Silver in hand than a Peddler.  But when you are BUYING a card for next reshuffle there is no reason to expect that situation to come up.  If you shuffle up an arbitrary pile of cards that contains Estates, Copper, Silver, and Gold, adding a Peddler to it will always improve its chance of drawing an 8$ hand more than adding a Silver to it as long as its money density is at least 1.0.  That's just straight math.  I'm not talking about the kind of strictly better where someone adds the ability to steal other treasures to Noble Brigand but its still balanced but people are like, man, that feels bad, strictly better Theif, I'm talking about the kind of strictly better where EVERY TIME you draw a 4$ hand with 4$ Peddler present and dead draw not present, you will not buy Silver.  There's not many official cards that have that property, and there's a reason for that. 
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iguanaiguana

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2015, 10:46:11 am »
+2

This is surprisingly simple (and awesome) for a variant card.  I find myself thinking of several cards that are slight variations of this...

Removing the coin makes it similar to the, too strong for $4, sifting Lab from Donald's outtakes, but the change from draw 2 discard 1 to drawing one of the top two cards should weaken it enough that it works at $4 or possibly less.

You can also change it to put the other card back on top of your deck, which makes the effect only very marginally better than +1 card. That card might also be good at $4. With that change and removing the +$1, it feels like a Pearl Diver variant to me.

Anyway, just random thoughts this card provoked.

I thought about putting the other card back instead of discarding it also. I figured it would make it too weak to be a , yet at it would be a strictly-better-than-Peddler for , which while not technically not ok, still probably not a good idea.

People always phrase it as "strictly better than Peddler at 4", but really the problem is that it's strictly better than Silver at 4 (barring dead draw, which is not broad enough to justify a strictly better situation with Silver, which is always present).  Even decks that want to pile out Duchies have a theoretical average coin value of 1$ per card, so you can't justify Silver over 4$ Peddler.

I definitely disagree with this. Average coin value or not, there's plenty of times where is better than + 1 card. Mostly whenever you need the money now and the card you get isn't something that gives you money.

And even if it were a non-terminal action that gave , terminal draw is a huge thing. Yes a Peddler is going to be better than a Silver most of the time, but it doesn't obsolete Silver.
It's a strictly better buy, than Silver, not a strictly better play.  Gold is a strictly better play than Silver, and that's obviously not a problem.

Yes, if you have 3 Silvers, an Estate, and one other card in hand, and the top card of your deck is Estate, you would rather have a Silver in hand than a Peddler.  But when you are BUYING a card for next reshuffle there is no reason to expect that situation to come up.  If you shuffle up an arbitrary pile of cards that contains Estates, Copper, Silver, and Gold, adding a Peddler to it will always improve its chance of drawing an 8$ hand more than adding a Silver to it as long as its money density is at least 1.0.  That's just straight math.  I'm not talking about the kind of strictly better where someone adds the ability to steal other treasures to Noble Brigand but its still balanced but people are like, man, that feels bad, strictly better Theif, I'm talking about the kind of strictly better where EVERY TIME you draw a 4$ hand with 4$ Peddler present and dead draw not present, you will not buy Silver.  There's not many official cards that have that property, and there's a reason for that.

In a deck of estates, ruins, curses and coppers the card draw does me very little and the +2 coin does me a lot.

In general + card is better than + coin. Thats why wharf is so much better than merchant ship amd training is cheaper than pathfinding. However, saying that is always the case is incorrect.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2015, 10:48:48 am »
+2

I just think you're ignoring the value/power of treasure over actions. Terminal draw isn't just an edge case, it's a major thing on many cards and in many decks. Another not-too-uncommon situation you're ignoring is engines that draw your whole deck. Now, your Peddler might as well just be a Copper. And of course those Peddlers might be an important part of drawing your whole deck, so you'll buy a few before buying any Silver. But then buying more is bad. So in strong engine decks, or in decks that are primarily BM (with terminal draw), you'll want at least some Silver. That's 2 common deck-types that aren't just edge cases.

*Edit* And iguanaiguana just reminded me that slogs want the Silver also. So slog decks, BM decks, and strong engine decks all will want to buy Silver over Peddler sometimes.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 10:49:51 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2015, 10:57:22 am »
+1

People always phrase it as "strictly better than Peddler at 4", but really the problem is that it's strictly better than Silver at 4 (barring dead draw, which is not broad enough to justify a strictly better situation with Silver, which is always present).  Even decks that want to pile out Duchies have a theoretical average coin value of 1$ per card, so you can't justify Silver over 4$ Peddler.

It's not strictly better if there are edge cases, and dead draw isn't even an edge case, it's present almost every game. Tournament and Ironmonger are both official cards which are way stronger than Peddler at $4.
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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2015, 11:09:06 am »
0

Another not-too-uncommon situation you're ignoring is engines that draw your whole deck.

You got me there.

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2015, 05:30:42 pm »
0

I once had a version of this without the coin for $2. It was rather decent, a bit stronger than Vagrant, but a bit boring, and became Hunter. The coin may be well enough to make this more interesting. Who doesn't like coins? I should agree with those that said it's very strong, though.

Edit: Oops, sorry. My version discarded the other card. I'm not sure what the advantage of putting it at the bottom of your deck is.

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Re: New Card: Search Party
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2015, 05:14:40 am »
0

I like the card and don't think it necessarily needs a change at all, but as others have said it isn't really exciting. But not all cards necessarily need to be.

One change that I thought of could make it a little bit more original while keeping the general concept.

Quote
Search Party:
+1 Action
+$1
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one of them into your hand and the other at the bottom of your deck.
Cost: $5
Action

This would make the card a bit weaker in the beginning (less deck cycling and less sifting of estates/coppers into the discard pile) and a bit better in the mid to end game as cycling becomes a little less important and overall deck quality improves so that you can ensure that if you draw two good cards one won't just be discarded and have to wait for the reshuffle.

Plus I don't think there is another card--I am not super familiar with Adventures--that deals with the bottom of the deck aside from Pearl Diver is there?

But I don't think the card necessarily needs this change, but only if you want it to be a little less simple.

While this is probably way too weak for 5, I like it because it comboes with chancellor. :)
You don't see that often.
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