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Author Topic: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage  (Read 3410 times)

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aku_chi

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Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« on: October 20, 2015, 01:16:21 am »
+20

This combo is similar to Native Village and Bridge; the goal is to end the game with a megaturn where you play and replay Bridge several times to buy out the remaining Provinces (and perhaps some Duchies).  Multiple Royal Carriages can replay the same Bridge.  The condition for the megaturn is 6+ Royal Carriages in reserve and a Bridge and 1 additional coin in hand.  If some Provinces are gone, you can also end the game with 5 Royal Carriages in reserve, a Bridge and sufficient coin in hand (6 additional coin for 6 Provinces, 4 additional coin for 5 Provinces).

Strategy (without supporting cards):
  • Open with Bridge and Silver.
  • Buy Royal Carriage whenever you can.
  • Buy Silver with 3 or 4 coins.  Buy an extra Bridge or two if the opportunity presents itself and you aren't worried about collisions.
  • Use Royal Carriage on Bridge to buy more Royal Carriages (as many as you can - 6 may be required for a Province-rush strategy).
  • Once you have 6+ Royal Carriages in reserve (or 5 with the coin to buy out Provinces), play a Bridge and re-play it 5+ times.  Buy out the Provinces and as many Duchies as you can.

The speed of this combo depends on shuffle luck.  With very good luck, it is possible to buy all eight Provinces in 12 or fewer turns.  With poor luck, it is still possible to buy out the remaining Provinces and several Duchies by turn 16.  If Royal Carriages are contested, it is important to get at least 6.  However, 5 Royal Carriages are enough to buy the majority of Provinces and several Duchies.  Bridges are not heavily contested with this strategy.  1 is sufficient; 3 is plenty.

This strategy is moderately affected by attacks.  Ghost Ship is the most debilitating; it makes it harder to reach 5 coins to buy Royal Carriage, and it reduces the speed at which you can play and use Royal Carriages.  Discard attacks are an inconvenience; invest in more Silver.  Junking attacks slow this combo down a little; sifting becomes extraordinarily valuable.  Trashing attacks can hurt if they hit Royal Carriage; buy more copies than you need and keep them in reserve longer.

Synergies:
  • Sifting (find your Royal Carriages faster to set up the megaturn)
  • Estate trashing
  • Ferry (make it trivial to get Royal Carriages)
  • Save (save your Bridge until the last turn before your shuffle to maximize the impact of your Royal Carriages)
  • Colony games (your opponent is less likely to compete over Provinces, and you can end the game with your megaturn before your opponent can get 5+ Colonies)

Anti-Synergies:
  • Ghost Ship
  • Embargo (an early embargo on Royal Carriages kills the strategy)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 01:37:01 pm by aku_chi »
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Chris is me

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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2015, 07:48:33 am »
0

Does it really depend on shuffle luck that much? You can buy a bunch of Silver to get to $5 more often, because you don't really care how clogged your deck is with them at all, and once you have all the Royal Carriage you need, you just need the one Bridge and a Copper. Ghost Ship can slow you down, but just as much as it can any board really. It's a pretty good combo.
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AdamH

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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2015, 08:49:49 am »
0

The synergy between these two cards is striking, this is very true. The term "combo" has a very specific definition in my mind, so I might have called this "a super-awesome payload for your engine."

The main distinction here is how much support it needs to work, yeah? So like in a two-card kingdom of Royal Carriage and Bridge, I'm playing Big Money with a single Bridge (do Colonies change that? I'm inclined to say no but I'm less sure without simulation data). This is because it will take forever to line up your megaturn without support. So that just means it isn't ultra-bonkers like Hermit/Market Square, since just those two cards without any other supports allows a deck that will beat almost anything out there when uncontested (this is actually my definition of "combo," for the curious).

The components are also super-expensive, and if you're going with the strategy where you're building up Royal Carriages over multiple turns, that means you aren't getting turns where you play two or three Bridges, which would make it much easier to pick up tons of Royal Carriages as you need them. This means that while thinning and sifting do support this kind of strategy, but it still takes quite a while to build up to your megaturn this way.

Most of the time I would prefer to have a deck that's capable of using RC/Bridge to play a couple of Bridges each turn to accelerate my growth. In this case, Royal Carriage is acting like a better Throne Room. Throne Room is pretty ridiculous in this deck, so RC is naturally "super-ridic" here.

I'd be interested in seeing how versions of this combo hold up to Big Money in a simulator, and then adding in support for the combo and seeing how that stacks up against BM with that same support. I think that would be telling, yeah?

Anyways, nice work. +1 for you :)
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Chris is me

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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2015, 02:00:55 pm »
+1

I don't really even think you have to hold off on using RCs until the mega turn. You just need to commit to not using RCs for the duration of a single shuffle, in order for you to draw and set them aside. This should give you some opportunity to gain multiple RCs in one turn by playing Bridge 2 or 3 times. I'll have to try this out.

I think this is definitely a combo and not an engine payload because nothing about it requires an engine, or even any cards other than six Royal Carriage and a single Bridge. You don't even have to line anything up.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2015, 02:03:54 pm »
+2

This is why I pushed really hard for Bridge Troll to have while-in-play cost reduction; I didn't want another Royal Carriage/Bridge combo, especially in the same set.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2015, 03:13:00 pm »
0

What would convince me (only one is required):

1. a simulation result that has this beating DoubleJack over 55% of the time (50% would do, but you know, 55)
2. a game log where you get a decent enough megaturn to win the game (what is that, like six Bridges?) by, umm, T13? I'm assuming a somewhat lucky draw here -- consistently T15 would probably be good enough.

You can use any support from any other kingdom cards in either of these. If you can do it with just one other piece of support (like trashing or Warehouse or something) then that's still useful, but if this is really Combo-rific it shouldn't need any support.

I will attempt to do #2 when I get a chance, but that may not be until tomorrow night or so.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2015, 04:55:05 pm »
0

Without any simulators coded for Adventures, and without any online client to try it out on, the best I can probably do is hand-writing out a log as I play solitaire games with physical cards. Honestly it seems worth a shot, I'll give it a try. I can even have a friend just play Double Jack to get that result, but maybe I'm underestimating how boring that would be for them.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2015, 05:27:17 pm »
0

Adventures over skype? :)
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2015, 06:03:38 pm »
0

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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2015, 06:24:12 pm »
+4

Well, let's assume perfect shuffle luck for the hell of it, and then add 4 turns, perhaps 5?  B for Bridge, R for Royal Carriage, (s) for shuffle.

T1/2: Buy B/S
T3: SCCCC, Buy R
T4: BCCCE, Buy R
T5: EE(s)ERR, play 2R, buy nothing
T6: BSCCC, play B, call 2R ($3 discount and $8 total), buy 4 RC.
T7: CCCC(s)R, play R, buy nothing
T8: RRRRR, play 5R
T9: BSCCC, play B, call 6R ($7 discount and $12 total), buy 8 P.

I'm thinking T13 should be doable, and T15 consistently should be easy.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2015, 06:31:05 pm »
+4

I was first introduced to this combo in a 3-player real-space Dominion game.  My two opponents went for Royal Carriages and Bridges with an eye towards Duchies and Dukes.  I decided to employ a more boring big-money approach and grab Provinces, hoping that they would split Duchies.  I was impressed with the synergy between Royal Carriage and Bridge as my opponents were grabbing Duchies and Dukes, but the game was pretty even when Duchies and Dukes ran out; I thought I might have a chance to grab the remaining Provinces and win.  My eyes were opened when one of my opponents had a post-green mega-turn and bought 4 Provinces.  That got me thinking: this isn't just synergy, this is a combo.

Bridge is the key.  The more you play, the more value each Bridge provides.  7 is the magic number where you can trivially buy 8 Provinces.  It is very hard to play 7 Bridges in one turn.  In fact, I think there are only three realistic ways:
  • Native Village
  • King's Court (with a supporting engine)
  • Royal Carriage
The first two have combo articles on the wiki.  Royal Carriage does not.  I will go further.  I think Royal Carriage might be the best combo piece for Bridge.  The Native Village strategy relies on obtaining 7+ Bridges and 6+ Native Villages.  If either of these piles are in contention, it fails pretty hard.  Also, in my limited experience, it is slow unless you can buy out both piles (and then you have to fear a 3-pile ending).  King's Court and Bridge is fast and powerful and only requires a few components, but it is conditional on a lot of support.  Non-terminal draw is key, and trashing or sifting are also needed.  Royal Carriage and Bridge does not rely on as many components as Native Village and Bridge and does not require support (but it is aided by it).

I played a few Solitaire games with nothing else in the kingdom.  In all games, I limited myself to 7 Royal Carriages (important) and 5 Bridges (less important) - to simulate some contention over these cards.  Because the strategy involves rushing to Royal Carriages, I think it is fair to suppose that one wins the split, but it's worth testing how good the strategy is with 5 or 6 Royal Carriages.  My best game resulted in 8 Provinces on turn 12.  I recorded what I bought on each turn, but not what I had in hand or played.
Turn 1: Buy Bridge
Turn 2: Buy Silver
Turn 3: Buy Royal Carriage
Turn 4: Buy Silver
Turn 5: Buy Royal Carriage
Turn 6: Buy Royal Carriage
Turn 7: Buy nothing (I must have had 3 Estates)
Turn 8: Buy Royal Carriage
Turn 9: Call 2 Royal Carriages and buy 3 Royal Carriages and a Bridge
Turn 10: Buy Bridge
Turn 11: Buy nothing (my hand included a lot of Royal Carriages)
Turn 12: Call 6 Royal Carriages and buy 8 Provinces.

I followed that up with another game with very poor shuffle luck (Bridge and Silver both missed turns 3 and 4 and my luck didn't much improve).  I still managed to get 7 Provinces and 3 Duchies by turn 16.
Turn 1: Buy Bridge
Turn 2: Buy Silver
Turn 3: Buy Silver
Turn 4: Buy Silver (*groan)
Turn 5: Buy Royal Carriage and Silver
Turn 6: Buy Bridge
Turn 7: Buy nothing (I must have had 3 Estates)
Turn 8: Call a Royal Carriage and buy two Royal Carriages and a Silver
Turn 9: Buy Royal Carriage and a Bridge
Turn 10: Buy Royal Carriage and a Bridge
Turn 11: Buy Silver (I chose not to call a Royal Carriage)
Turn 12: Buy nothing (I might have had enough for a Silver, but I didn't want it at this point)
Turn 13: Buy Royal Carriage (right before my last shuffle)
Turn 14: Duchy
Turn 15: Duchy
Turn 16: Call 6 Royal Carriages and buy 7 Provinces and a Duchy (I must not have had any treasure in my hand).
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2015, 07:03:28 pm »
0

I played a few Solitaire games with nothing else in the kingdom.  In all games, I limited myself to 7 Royal Carriages (important) and 5 Bridges (less important) - to simulate some contention over these cards.  Because the strategy involves rushing to Royal Carriages, I think it is fair to suppose that one wins the split, but it's worth testing how good the strategy is with 5 or 6 Royal Carriages.  My best game resulted in 8 Provinces on turn 12.  I recorded what I bought on each turn, but not what I had in hand or played.

The assumptions regarding the split depend on what other strategies might involve buying Royal Carriages and also the number of players.

If Royal Carriage-Bridge decks are mediocre when 2+ players go for the same strategy but the uncontested Royal Carriage-Bridge deck wins easily, you still need to play the mirror with 2-players. When considering Royal Carriage-Bridge in 2 player vs. a simple money strategy that wouldn't normally add many Royal Carriages because they have little benefit (e.g., Embassy big money), you can safely assume you'll get even more than 7 Royal Carriages.

In 3-player, a strategy that is weak if mirrored but wins easily if not mirrored leads to game theoretic considerations and it is hard to give general advice. It would also be worth noting if this strategy is strong enough that even when mirrored in 3-player games the two players going for Royal Carriage-Bridge are still favored.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2015, 07:06:04 pm »
+4

Trying this with all proxied cards, because Innovation is more accessible after the move than Dominion:

3: BSCCE, buy R
4: SCCEE, buy S
5: CC(s)RSC, play R, buy R
6: BSCEE, play B, call R, buy RR
7: CCCE(s)B, buy R
8: RRRRS, play 4R, buy nothing
9: SCCCE, buy R
10: CE(s)CER, play R, buy nothing
11: RSSCC, play R, buy R
12: BSCCC, play B, call 6R, win.

Well, that RRRR draw was really lucky.  I'll shuffle better this time?

3: BCCCE, buy R
4: SCCCE, buy R
5: CE(s)RCC, play R, buy S
6: RBCEE, play R, play B, call RR, buy RR
7: SCCC(s)E, buy R
8: RRCCE, play 2R, buy nothing
9: RRCCE, play 2R, buy nothing
10: BS(s)RCE, play R, play B, call RR, buy RB
11: SCCCC, buy R
12: EECC(s)C, buy nothing
13: RBBCC, play R, buy nothing
14: RSCCE, play R, buy B
15: RS(s)CCE, play R, buy nothing
16: BBSCC, call 6R, win.

Unforced error in bold, I could have called just R to buy RB, and this would have been over on 13.

3: SCCCE, buy R
4: CCCEE, buy S
5: BC(s)SCE, play B, buy R
6: CCCEE, buy nothing (two silvers ought to be enough)
7: RSCC(s)R, play RR, buy B
8: BCCEE, call RR, buy RR
9: SCCCE, buy R
10: (s)RRBCE, play RRB, call RR, buy RR
11: RCCCE, play R
12: RRSSE, play RR, buy B
13: BCCC(s)S, buy R
14: RCCCE, play R
15: RRRBE, play RRRB, call 7R, win.

The fact that you can play and call RCs on the same turn really gives this a chance to speed things up.  However, I think you have to win the RC split here; five just doesn't cut it.  If you get two 5s on T3/4 (as I did in the first game) then you're golden and might win by the end of the third shuffle.

I'm not an expert, but I'd call this a legit combo.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2015, 07:07:44 pm »
0

The first two have combo articles on the wiki.  Royal Carriage does not.  I will go further.  I think Royal Carriage might be the best combo piece for Bridge.  The Native Village strategy relies on obtaining 7+ Bridges and 6+ Native Villages.  If either of these piles are in contention, it fails pretty hard.  Also, in my limited experience, it is slow unless you can buy out both piles (and then you have to fear a 3-pile ending).  King's Court and Bridge is fast and powerful and only requires a few components, but it is conditional on a lot of support.  Non-terminal draw is key, and trashing or sifting are also needed.  Royal Carriage and Bridge does not rely on as many components as Native Village and Bridge and does not require support (but it is aided by it).

This isn't accurate.  NV-Bridge doesn't necessarily need 7+ Bridges and 6+ Native Villages.  If it's contested, then the winner is going to be whoever is able to set up and execute a 3-pile ending in their favour.  And KC-Bridge may need support, but KC itself means that it's a rare board when there isn't sufficient support.  I'd expect KC-Bridge to be a better bet than RC-Bridge.  Again, the win condition can easily be a 3-pile instead of a Province pile drive.

That's not to say that RC-Bridge isn't a combo, because I totally expect that it is.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2015, 10:30:41 pm »
+4

Played one test game against Double Jack and you really, really don't need 5 Bridges. I don't think it helps you at all to have more than 2 or 3. I played this game with just one.

Jack player played optimally except forgoing a Province for a 3rd Gold, which didn't end up mattering. RC combo ended the game on Turn 13. This is really, really easy.

Code: [Select]
BT1: 4C 1E / Bridge
JT1: 3C 2E / Silver
BT2: 3C 2E / Silver
JT2: 4C 1E / Jack
---
BT3: 1S 3C 1B / Play Bridge / Royal Carriage & Silver
JT3: 3C 2E / Silver
BT4: 2C 3E / Nothing
JT4: 1S 3C 1E / Jack
---
BT5: 3C 2E / Silver
JT5: 3C 1E 1J / Play Jack - Draw Copper - Trash Estate / Silver
BT6: 1S 3C 1B / Play Bridge / Royal Carriage & Silver
JT6: 2S 2C 1J / Play Jack - Discard Copper - Draw and Trash Estate / Buy Gold
---
BT7: 2S 1C 1R 1E / Play Royal Carriage / Buy Royal Carriage
JT7: 3S 1C 1E / Buy Gold
BT8: 2S 2C 1E / Buy Royal Carriage
JT8: 1G 1S 3C / Buy Gold
BT9: 3C 1B 1RC / Play Royal Carriage - Play Bridge, Call 2x Royal Carriage / Buy 3x Royal Carriage
JT9: 3C 1S 1J / Play Jack - Reveal and Discard Jack - Draw Copper / Buy Gold
---
BT10: 3 RC 1C 1E / Play 3 Royal Carriages
JT10: 3S 1C 1E / Buy Gold
BT11: 2 RC 2C 1E / Play 2 Royal Carriages
JT11: 1G 1S 2C 1J / Play Jack - Reveal and Draw Gold / Buy Province
BT12: 3S 1C 1RC / Play Royal Carriage / Buy Duchy
JT12: 1G 2S 1C 1E / Buy Province
BT13: 1B 1S 2C 1E / Play Bridge and Call 6x RC / Buy 6 Provinces 2 Duchy
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 10:32:21 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2015, 11:32:41 pm »
0

Lots of +1s for everyone. I will take a closer look at these when I get a chance.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2015, 11:33:06 pm »
+1

Try this against DoubleGear BM.  Played properly, DoubleGear should be getting 4/5 Provinces by turn 12.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 11:34:32 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2015, 09:26:12 am »
0

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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2015, 11:13:46 am »
+2

I've edited the wiki page and the original post to reflect the latest knowledge gathered by others.  Feel free to make additional edits.

The synergy section is most speculative right now.  I'm positive that Ferry speeds up the combo (it speeds up everything).  Save should have a minor positive impact.  I have a strong suspicion that adding Warehouse or Dungeon after 1 or 2 Silvers would improve the deck, but I haven't confirmed this.  I suspect that opening with other cards (like Amulet, Jack of all Trades, Squire, and Ironmonger) would accelerate the combo, but I haven't tested.  Some of these cards might only accelerate the combo in the face of certain attacks.  Also, I don't know if cards like Jack of all Trades and Ironmonger should count as synergies if they help the non-combo player at least as much.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2015, 02:32:13 pm »
+3

Try this against DoubleGear BM.  Played properly, DoubleGear should be getting 4/5 Provinces by turn 12.

Well, this still has the potential to pull off 3P5D in its last turn, which beats 5P.
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Re: Combo: Bridge and Royal Carriage
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2015, 07:09:31 pm »
0

Try this against DoubleGear BM.  Played properly, DoubleGear should be getting 4/5 Provinces by turn 12.

Well, this still has the potential to pull off 3P5D in its last turn, which beats 5P.

Hmm. Now I want to see this against Counting House/Travelling Fair.
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