Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6  All

Author Topic: Improving Online Dominion  (Read 26098 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2015, 01:06:33 pm »
+1

Well, I'm not saying you have to be happy about the way things have been going. In your position, I'd try the web-based client they have, and then if that didn't work, be very upset that I can't play Dominion.

At least you're polite about it. I mean, the fact that you disagree with me hasn't changed my mind, oh well. +1 for you :)
Logged
I respond to PMs.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7033
  • Respect: +7852
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2015, 02:00:04 pm »
+5

Also, do you really expect Dominion with no animations to take off as a game people want to watch on stream?

I loved watching streaming Dominion back in the Iso days. There were no animations whatsoever when streaming Dominion first became a thing; and people watched it.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6454
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7805
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2015, 02:02:33 pm »
+18

Also, do you really expect Dominion with no animations to take off as a game people want to watch on stream?

I loved watching streaming Dominion back in the Iso days. There were no animations whatsoever when streaming Dominion first became a thing; and people watched it.

Back in my day, we used to get the log of each turn printed in the daily paper.  One game lasted three weeks, but god dammit, we'd rush down the steps every morning to see what went down that turn.
Logged

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #78 on: October 20, 2015, 03:14:44 pm »
+1

I watched the crap out of iso videos, but the unfortunate reality is that we in the F.DS community are a small minority of people who play Dominion online and a slightly-larger-but-still-small minority of people who watch Dominion on video or stream, and most everyone else would prefer animations and a client that's easy to follow.
Logged
I respond to PMs.

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5232
  • Respect: +2689
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #79 on: October 20, 2015, 03:26:22 pm »
+4

I watched the crap out of iso videos, but the unfortunate reality is that we in the F.DS community are a small minority of people who play Dominion online and a slightly-larger-but-still-small minority of people who watch Dominion on video or stream, and most everyone else would prefer animations and a client that's easy to follow.
I would think a prominent, persistent log of recent actions would be more useful for stream friendliness than animations.  You can make the animations for mining a silver into a gold 3 seconds if you want, I still might turn away and miss it.  Leave a log event on screen for 3 minutes that summarizes recent gain and cursing events, it's hard for me to miss it.  At worst I need to pause it to catch up on my lapse in attention.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

gkrieg13

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 509
  • Shuffle iT Username: gkrieg
  • Respect: +461
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #80 on: October 20, 2015, 03:27:52 pm »
+1

I watched the crap out of iso videos, but the unfortunate reality is that we in the F.DS community are a small minority of people who play Dominion online and a slightly-larger-but-still-small minority of people who watch Dominion on video or stream, and most everyone else would prefer animations and a client that's easy to follow.
I would think a prominent, persistent log of recent actions would be more useful for stream friendliness than animations.  You can make the animations for mining a silver into a gold 3 seconds if you want, I still might turn away and miss it.  Leave a log event on screen for 3 minutes that summarizes recent gain and cursing events, it's hard for me to miss it.  At worst I need to pause it to catch up on my lapse in attention.

Agreed.  We need a log that has a white background.  Otherwise, it is completely unreadable on a stream.
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2532
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3150
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #81 on: October 20, 2015, 04:51:46 pm »
+1

I watched the crap out of iso videos, but the unfortunate reality is that we in the F.DS community are a small minority of people who play Dominion online and a slightly-larger-but-still-small minority of people who watch Dominion on video or stream, and most everyone else would prefer animations and a client that's easy to follow.

I understand the visual aesthetics are important to casual players, but do you have anything to back up that the card animations in particular are either in demand or liked by anyone? Displaying the cards with art, visual representations of card movement, etc. are one thing, but the glowing glittery animations all over the place are another. I'm having trouble finding even a casual fan who thinks the game is more watchable that way. It's a huge premise to just assume that it's wanted.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5232
  • Respect: +2689
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #82 on: October 20, 2015, 05:41:30 pm »
+3

The most streamed online version of a board game is probably MTGO, which has no animations at all.  So I'm not sure how you establish that animations are popular. 
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6454
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7805
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #83 on: October 20, 2015, 05:48:50 pm »
0

Really, why should we see the cards moving?  The only thing I can think of is for first-time players that don't understand Trash, Hand, In-Play, Discard, Deck, Reveal "locations".  But, they can just appear in those places, they don't have to physically move from A to B.  Once you know what those things are, you'll never want to see the cards move.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6954
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9587
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #84 on: October 20, 2015, 05:58:31 pm »
+9

Really, why should we see the cards moving?  The only thing I can think of is for first-time players that don't understand Trash, Hand, In-Play, Discard, Deck, Reveal "locations".  But, they can just appear in those places, they don't have to physically move from A to B.  Once you know what those things are, you'll never want to see the cards move.

False. I want to see cards move.
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6454
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7805
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #85 on: October 20, 2015, 06:00:38 pm »
+4

Also, Dominion Online switched the position of Followers and Princess from Goko.  Feature parity broken!
Logged

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
  • Respect: +7122
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #86 on: October 20, 2015, 06:45:06 pm »
+7

I fell prey to insanity and reported three bugs, one of which was a reminder of something I reported just over 20 months ago, but I happen to be known for my lack of patience.
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6454
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7805
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #87 on: October 20, 2015, 06:59:25 pm »
+4

Really, why should we see the cards moving?  The only thing I can think of is for first-time players that don't understand Trash, Hand, In-Play, Discard, Deck, Reveal "locations".  But, they can just appear in those places, they don't have to physically move from A to B.  Once you know what those things are, you'll never want to see the cards move.

False. I want to see cards move.

Okay, well, cats probably agree with you.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5232
  • Respect: +2689
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #88 on: October 20, 2015, 07:13:06 pm »
0

Really, why should we see the cards moving?  The only thing I can think of is for first-time players that don't understand Trash, Hand, In-Play, Discard, Deck, Reveal "locations".  But, they can just appear in those places, they don't have to physically move from A to B.  Once you know what those things are, you'll never want to see the cards move.

False. I want to see cards move.

Okay, well, cats probably agree with you.

My preference matches yours, but that's not a healthy or helpful comment.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

iguanaiguana

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 604
  • Respect: +1041
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #89 on: October 20, 2015, 08:28:52 pm »
+13

Man, this is already a really long thread, but I have a few things to add even to what's been said.

1) First of all, like most people, I think AdamH is probably overdoing it here on his defense of MF and his insistence that the majority of what we have done as a community has been unhelpful or even destructive to Making Fun. To Adam specifically: you are incredibly emotionally invested in this right now and I think that is making it hard for you to look at any of these issues in an unbiased way.

2) Unlike a lot of people here, I actually totally agree with AdamH in saying that some of the things that people have said on the forums have been unwarrantedly negative toward the developers of Making Fun. There have been some incredibly negative things said, and to some extent it is making this community look bad, and I would say making it a less enjoyable place to spend time. Negativity has a negative effect on things, and to me the people who are claiming that this is not the case are behaving absurdly defensive towards themselves and this community in general.

3) Despite the fact that there has been unwarranted hostility towards Making Fun on these forums, there has also been some pretty nasty behavior back on the part of Making Fun toward us, particularly from DavidtheDavid. As  their PR guy, he's done in my opinion a pretty halfhearted job of trying to meet our complaints. It is his job to accept complaints on behalf of their company, not to return our complaints with non-sequiters, smugness or vaguely concealed disdain. And since I have been somewhat active on the MF forums, I am afraid to say that this hasn't really changed. Maybe there are some people out there who think this particular employee is just great, but it will be a long time until I am one of them, and he has done as much to make things toxic around here as any of the most vocal critics of Making Fun.

Well, I'm not saying you have to be happy about the way things have been going. In your position, I'd try the web-based client they have, and then if that didn't work, be very upset that I can't play Dominion.


Unrelated, but if anyone at all can make the web alpha client actually work, I'd love to hear about what you did. Because for me it is an error screen and nothing more, and when I tried to report this to MF, I was met with nothing except for DavidtheDavid's unfortunate condescension.

Another aside, but AdamH, if I continue to find myself in the position I am in now (completely unable to actually play Dominion Online on any of my devices), you may have finally found another person who can match your ability to create long, sometimes pointless but always passionate rants.
Logged
You are my favorite reptile.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.
All iguanas are equal. But some iguanas are more equal than others.

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6454
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7805
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2015, 08:46:01 pm »
0

Really, why should we see the cards moving?  The only thing I can think of is for first-time players that don't understand Trash, Hand, In-Play, Discard, Deck, Reveal "locations".  But, they can just appear in those places, they don't have to physically move from A to B.  Once you know what those things are, you'll never want to see the cards move.

False. I want to see cards move.

Okay, well, cats probably agree with you.

My preference matches yours, but that's not a healthy or helpful comment.

I meant 'cause, like, the cards move across the screen, so for a cat it would be like when they follow the laser pointer around.  So if you're playing with card animations, your cat can be entertained without you needing to use your laser pointer :)

It wasn't supposed to be snarky.
Logged

schadd

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 881
  • Shuffle iT Username: schadd
  • lockjaw
  • Respect: +1242
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2015, 09:32:49 pm »
+1

my bones are roused
Logged
I thought you thought it was a slip because I said 'Jake's partners' instead of 'Roadrunner7671.'
6-9
he/him
beloved my john, i'll carry on

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6454
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7805
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2015, 10:03:14 pm »
0

my bones are roused

I have that effect on people.
Logged

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #93 on: October 20, 2015, 11:24:17 pm »
+1

To Adam specifically: you are incredibly emotionally invested in this right now and I think that is making it hard for you to look at any of these issues in an unbiased way.

Are you for serious? I don't understand how you can possibly know what's going on for me emotionally right now? I don't know where this comes from.

3) Despite the fact that there has been unwarranted hostility towards Making Fun on these forums, there has also been some pretty nasty behavior back on the part of Making Fun toward us, particularly from DavidtheDavid.

So isn't David not actually an employee of MF? Didn't I hear that somewhere? In any case, I don't read what he's saying as condescending. I'm not sure how you can, but maybe you can. OK. I don't know what to say to you.

As for the animations, I've been told that they make it easier to figure out what's going on while watching a stream. I was told by F.DS people to make my animation speed Very Fast on Goko, and I was told by every other viewer who told me when I asked that they would prefer slower animations so they could follow the action better. So I compromised and put them on Fast.
Logged
I respond to PMs.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8047
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +9342
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #94 on: October 20, 2015, 11:31:52 pm »
+8

David's response to a fair few complaints has been along the lines of "Well you haven't played it enough" or "You're doing it wrong" and that's not something you really want in a PR person.  He should be seeing what we have to say, giving polite, but informative answers to our questions, and that's it.  He should not be in a defensive mode, or at least not an antagonistically defensive mode.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

microman

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 164
  • Stop "Making Fun" of me!
  • Respect: +67
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #95 on: October 20, 2015, 11:46:54 pm »
+1

David's response to a fair few complaints has been along the lines of "Well you haven't played it enough" or "You're doing it wrong" and that's not something you really want in a PR person.  He should be seeing what we have to say, giving polite, but informative answers to our questions, and that's it.  He should not be in a defensive mode, or at least not an antagonistically defensive mode.
not only that, but he also has seemed to have little to no understanding of what we asked him or suggestions we made.  And it seemed that instead of taking everything we said and directly quoting us to the rest of MF, he kept trying to decipher what we were saying and giving his own uneducated explanation as to what we really want.  This in my opinion is not just being a poor PR person, but being an uncaring and lazy person.  Now these are just my opinions.  And for the record I am not someone who points fingers, but when I see important suggestions and questions being handled by someone who seems to not care and not understand the dominion client as a whole, it gets me a little steamed.  I love dominion too much to see it get destroyed because there is a lack of care towards it. (Not MF as a whole but at least one person for sure)
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5232
  • Respect: +2689
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #96 on: October 21, 2015, 12:45:19 am »
0

Where can I read more of what this awful David fellow does?  Because apparently what iguana linked was just a sample, and that was pretty bad.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4929
  • Respect: +20232
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2015, 01:59:41 am »
+2

3/ You have plenty of inventive excuses as to why MF might be doing a better job than they seem to be doing but the fact for me is I only have an iPad, not a computer. Normally I'd play dominion with my best friend once or twice a week (he lives too far from me for us to play IRL). Now at least in part because of MFs development priorities there is no version that is playable on an iPad and I'm feeling pretty miffed ... is that what you'd characterise as my "sense of entitlement"
I don't know what this means in terms of a timetable, but they are currently testing an iPad version; I could be trying it now if I had an iPad.
Logged

Burning Skull

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1123
  • Shuffle iT Username: Burning Skull
  • See you in the Outpost
  • Respect: +1767
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2015, 02:24:16 am »
+2

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2532
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3150
    • View Profile
Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #99 on: October 21, 2015, 07:25:18 am »
+8

To Adam specifically: you are incredibly emotionally invested in this right now and I think that is making it hard for you to look at any of these issues in an unbiased way.

Are you for serious? I don't understand how you can possibly know what's going on for me emotionally right now? I don't know where this comes from.

If I had to guess, he's basing the conclusion off the very long and passionate posts you have on the subject, the very defensive reactions you've had to posters in this and other threads, etc. This isn't an insult or a way to suggest your feelings on the topic aren't valid / "correct" / whatever - just a recognition that you really love Dominion and have a strong emotional investment in the subject that may impact how you communicate with others. Many of us do. I do, SCSN does, you do, probably we all do.

Calling it like I see it - SCSN can be a bit of an abrasive dick sometimes but it really seemed like throughout this entire thread he wasn't trying to be the least bit hostile about anything, and you still spent a lot of time arguing with him. Based on how you've interacted in the past this may / may not be warranted, I'm not going to judge all that, but that to me indicated there was more at play for you than a cold and calculated reading of the facts of the situation. We all have some degree of emotional investment in this game which drives us to rationalize feelings we already had about it ("MF sucks at programming" being validated by decompiled source code or "FDS doesn't do anything but complain" being validated by FDS threads or what have you).

This paragraph gets kinda out there, just a heads up. One of the hardest things for highly intelligent / "nerdy" people to do (really everyone) is to separate emotional thought processes from purely logical ones. There really aren't purely logical thoughts - humans use their emotional spaces to help sort through complex problems that would be less efficient to purely logically parse. Happens all the time without you even necessarily realizing it. I don't really think anyone is truly good at purely logical thoughts separate from emotion - I think we're all just logic emulators running on emotional processors if you will. So what I'm saying, is that anyone with a strong emotional investment in anything is bound to reach conclusions that others with strong emotional investments won't necessarily reach, and that part of finding common ground is to recognize one's own state and try to deescalate the situation for everyone.

Quote
3) Despite the fact that there has been unwarranted hostility towards Making Fun on these forums, there has also been some pretty nasty behavior back on the part of Making Fun toward us, particularly from DavidtheDavid.

So isn't David not actually an employee of MF? Didn't I hear that somewhere? In any case, I don't read what he's saying as condescending. I'm not sure how you can, but maybe you can. OK. I don't know what to say to you.

To be perfectly honest, "David isn't an MF employee" might be one of the bigger cognitive backflips I've heard anyone make to defend MF. He explicitly joined this forum in order to collect comments and pass them on to developers; this was his stated intention for posting here and making threads. His user title on this forum is "Dominion Online Staff" and he is an admin on the MF forums Regardless of where he is on the payroll, he's acting as an agent and public representative of MF, very obviously so, and his actions reflect on the organization he represents.

If you don't see how some of his posts have been really, really condescending, I also don't know what to tell you. I'm suspecting they just aren't coming to mind for you - he's made a lot of pretty good posts here too before he left and I think he got a lot of unnecessary flak for doing a very hard job. But dig through his post history, and try to see how they could come across to people whom have been playing 2.0 for months and making these suggestions through numerous channels while seemingly being ignored. Being told "hey dude it's an alpha buddy!!! of course it doesn't work!!!" in response to someone obviously distraught that they suddenly have no way to play a game they paid $60 for, that's really condescending, no way around that.

Quote
As for the animations, I've been told that they make it easier to figure out what's going on while watching a stream. I was told by F.DS people to make my animation speed Very Fast on Goko, and I was told by every other viewer who told me when I asked that they would prefer slower animations so they could follow the action better. So I compromised and put them on Fast.

Animations on Goko and animations on MF being totally different things - animations on Goko show people cards and where they are going. Animations on MF do a lot more than that, and these are for the most part the animations people were complaining about. Most people seemed like they would have been satisfied by "Goko animations but Salvager fast", which took until 2.0.42.1 to happen. In the mean time, more of the glittery unnecessary animations were added, so you can see how this frustrated players a lot.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6  All
 

Page created in 0.227 seconds with 24 queries.