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Author Topic: Improving Online Dominion  (Read 28350 times)

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AdamH

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2015, 02:52:31 pm »
0

We've spent pages of posts complaining about MF's software engineering process that we know absolutely nothing about. We've spent pages of posts complaining about MF's source code that we know absolutely nothing about
This is an absurd claim. We know plenty about their software engineering process by just looking at what they've produced: a bug-ridden rewrite that has been in development way longer than it should have. We don't need the source to know things are bad.

This is simply incorrect and it's exactly the kind of insensitive stuff that is so unbecoming of us. I don't understand how the article you link is relevant for supporting your claim. I don't know what evidence you have to support your claim that their software is "bad".

I really think you should reconsider your opinion.
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AdamH

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2015, 02:53:55 pm »
+1

To make another attempt at reconciliation: you're more than welcome to resume posting in my thread, though I'm personally not interested in legal considerations and to the extent that there is stuff you'd still like to add on the matter, it's better to discuss that in a separate thread (taking into account Donald's excellent response explaining why any legal action from MF would be extremely unlikely).

It's OK when DXV talks about the legal considerations in your thread because that's what you wanted to hear. You kicked me out because I said something you didn't like. If I'm wrong, prove it.
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Watno

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2015, 02:57:18 pm »
+3

We didn't try working with them? I think all the flaws of their implementation where pointed out in their forum month ago.

Also, I think it's highly unlikely that the patch slowed down improvements of the NF client. I don't believe the ioption to turn off animations was implemented so quickly after the patch was released is a coincidence.

Also, with the client not being beta anymore, accepting a worse experience in order to find potential bugs more easily is ridiculous.
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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2015, 02:58:26 pm »
+12

I don't know what evidence you have to support your claim that their software is "bad".
With us being the customers, our opinion of it is what determines wether the software is bad or not.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2015, 02:59:25 pm »
+1

the point I was trying to make is that we never considered working with them, we just skipped right to the part where we're getting in their way.

This does not seem like a fair characterization.  I don't think anything done here has gotten in their way, unless you just mean complaining.  But it's, like, a forum. 
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SCSN

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2015, 03:05:27 pm »
+2

To make another attempt at reconciliation: you're more than welcome to resume posting in my thread, though I'm personally not interested in legal considerations and to the extent that there is stuff you'd still like to add on the matter, it's better to discuss that in a separate thread (taking into account Donald's excellent response explaining why any legal action from MF would be extremely unlikely).

It's OK when DXV talks about the legal considerations in your thread because that's what you wanted to hear. You kicked me out because I said something you didn't like. If I'm wrong, prove it.

I offered to bury the hatchet, not to revive an old fight or pick up a new one.

Here is my hand, it's up to you to shake it.
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AdamH

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2015, 03:07:35 pm »
+3

We didn't try working with them? I think all the flaws of their implementation where pointed out in their forum month ago.

They've fixed some of what we told them back then and will fix the rest when they can. The fact that some people here don't like how quickly that's happening doesn't change the fact that they are still doing what we asked.


I don't believe the ioption to turn off animations was implemented so quickly after the patch was released is a coincidence.

I have messages from people at MF dated from before the patch was ever talked about saying that all animation issues we had talked about should be worked in by versions 42 and 43, including the option to turn them off. Did you read their release notes?


Also, with the client not being beta anymore, accepting a worse experience in order to find potential bugs more easily is ridiculous.

I never said people shouldn't use the patch if they want to (in this thread). The point I'm trying to make is that if you use the patch, then your voice on what they should improve shouldn't take that into account...

The problem of actually hindering progress can be mitigated if we just know how to deal with it. That's all I'm trying to do here. SCSN thinks his you-know-what doesn't stink and a bunch of people upvoted his posts, so yay it's as simple as 1-2-3! No, there's more to it than that. Let's not trip over ourselves trying to make things better.

And you also don't get to have it both ways: you can't go behind MF's back with this patch and at the same time claim you're trying to help without telling the whole story, all while saying incorrect and insensitive things about the MF developers. Either you're trying to help, or you're just here to whine and get your juice box.
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gkrieg13

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2015, 03:11:20 pm »
+3

I think the reason why people are mad is because we participated in the closed beta and made some suggestions that still aren't implemented.  That being said, I'm happy with what they've done and that the client has been improving rather rapidly.  I still don't like that the game looks like it's from the 90s (trust me my wife thought I was playing an old version of it with the cursor) but performance-wise, it's coming along.  I did play a game with navigator the other day and the dragging mechanism needs to be high on their list.
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popsofctown

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2015, 03:14:45 pm »
+1

To make another attempt at reconciliation: you're more than welcome to resume posting in my thread, though I'm personally not interested in legal considerations and to the extent that there is stuff you'd still like to add on the matter, it's better to discuss that in a separate thread (taking into account Donald's excellent response explaining why any legal action from MF would be extremely unlikely).

It's OK when DXV talks about the legal considerations in your thread because that's what you wanted to hear. You kicked me out because I said something you didn't like. If I'm wrong, prove it.

I offered to bury the hatchet, not to revive an old fight or pick up a new one.

Here is my hand, it's up to you to shake it.
You should invite him to post in your thread without caveating it.
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pubby

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2015, 03:19:54 pm »
0

We've spent pages of posts complaining about MF's software engineering process that we know absolutely nothing about. We've spent pages of posts complaining about MF's source code that we know absolutely nothing about
This is an absurd claim. We know plenty about their software engineering process by just looking at what they've produced: a bug-ridden rewrite that has been in development way longer than it should have. We don't need the source to know things are bad.

This is simply incorrect and it's exactly the kind of insensitive stuff that is so unbecoming of us. I don't understand how the article you link is relevant for supporting your claim. I don't know what evidence you have to support your claim that their software is "bad".

I really think you should reconsider your opinion.
Likewise, I would really appreciate some evidence from you to support the contrary. My post was talking about their software engineering practices, not the software itself.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2015, 03:21:45 pm »
+3

Also, I think it's highly unlikely that the patch slowed down improvements of the NF client. I don't believe the ioption to turn off animations was implemented so quickly after the patch was released is a coincidence.

In fairness, I'm totally willing to believe it was a coincidence. It was on their list and they got around to it.
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Voltaire

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2015, 03:21:51 pm »
+3

You are absolutely correct that things are getting better - I agree! What makes us all so frustrated is that one of the big reasons things are getting better is that they just gave us a way to turn off a feature that they added. Months later, we (most visibly) went one step back, one step forward.

Now there are features I like they've added they don't get enough credit for: re-match, for one, is amazing. It could use some work (start player based on loser of previous match, for example) but the ability itself is splendid and I use it a lot.

On the other hand, I think it's reasonable to feel that

1) things are getting better
2) things aren't getting better fast enough

because at the pace they're going, it is entirely reasonable to think it will take a year to get to an online client most of us would be happy with. And even then, I'd be worried you were being optimistic. We saw how the long wait for a re-write left us with something identical.

It's not impossible to both be happy with improvements and frustrated with the pace.
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SCSN

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2015, 03:23:18 pm »
+2

To make another attempt at reconciliation: you're more than welcome to resume posting in my thread, though I'm personally not interested in legal considerations and to the extent that there is stuff you'd still like to add on the matter, it's better to discuss that in a separate thread (taking into account Donald's excellent response explaining why any legal action from MF would be extremely unlikely).

It's OK when DXV talks about the legal considerations in your thread because that's what you wanted to hear. You kicked me out because I said something you didn't like. If I'm wrong, prove it.

I offered to bury the hatchet, not to revive an old fight or pick up a new one.

Here is my hand, it's up to you to shake it.
You should invite him to post in your thread without caveating it.

Adam is welcome to post in my thread just like everyone else.

The caveat that I prefer discussion to be about feedback and suggestions, and that matters of legality and/or MF be moved to (a) separate thread(s) apply to everyone equally.
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popsofctown

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2015, 03:27:28 pm »
+1

To make another attempt at reconciliation: you're more than welcome to resume posting in my thread, though I'm personally not interested in legal considerations and to the extent that there is stuff you'd still like to add on the matter, it's better to discuss that in a separate thread (taking into account Donald's excellent response explaining why any legal action from MF would be extremely unlikely).

It's OK when DXV talks about the legal considerations in your thread because that's what you wanted to hear. You kicked me out because I said something you didn't like. If I'm wrong, prove it.

I offered to bury the hatchet, not to revive an old fight or pick up a new one.

Here is my hand, it's up to you to shake it.
You should invite him to post in your thread without caveating it.

Adam is welcome to post in my thread just like everyone else.

The caveat that I prefer discussion to be about feedback and suggestions, and that matters of legality and/or MF be moved to (a) separate thread(s) apply to everyone equally.

So if Donald posts some followup, you will tell him to make a separate thread?
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SCSN

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2015, 03:37:29 pm »
+2

Yes, in fact if I had modding powers I'd have split off into a separate thread all the legal talk—including Donald's contributions—long ago, and I probably should have asked theory or michaeljb to do just that in the first place. In any case, right now the thread is on topic and I'd like it to remain that way.
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AdamH

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2015, 03:43:26 pm »
+1

I offered to bury the hatchet, not to revive an old fight or pick up a new one.

Here is my hand, it's up to you to shake it.

I'm not interested in shaking or not shaking your hand so that you can look good by offering to do this. It seems like you don't even understand anything you've said to me that might have come across the wrong way. If you really want to bury the hatchet, you have to acknowledge that the hatchet exists, and actually dig a hole, etc. You can't just say "everything is OK" and expect things to be fine from now on.

Do you not understand why I still feel slighted by your response in that thread? Here's a hint: putting it in context doesn't change the way I feel about it, I had the context then, you know.

Yes, in fact if I had modding powers I'd have split off into a separate thread all the legal talk—including Donald's contributions—long ago, and I probably should have asked theory or michaeljb to do just that in the first place. In any case, right now the thread is on topic and I'd like it to remain that way.

Making this happen would go a long way towards me believing you, but you were just fine telling me to go eff off but you didn't say a single word to DXV or anyone else at the time who supported your claim. You also ignored every other thing I said in that thread that was trying to get some value out of what you had done -- that all just went out the window.

Whether you chose to dismiss me because of my arguments or it was personal doesn't really matter. You put something out there into the internet and don't feel like you have to deal with any of the negative consequences of it, you just want to accept the praise. And it was at my expense and nobody else's. It didn't make me feel good, and until you realize that and maybe try and do something about it, I'm not really interested in attempting a conversation with you in it -- it's just "interference".

...and if we can get past that, we may visit all of the personal attacks you've made on me in the chat during my league matches when I wasn't looking. I review those videos, you know. We have a long way to go before hands get shaken.
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AdamH

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2015, 03:48:41 pm »
+1

We've spent pages of posts complaining about MF's software engineering process that we know absolutely nothing about. We've spent pages of posts complaining about MF's source code that we know absolutely nothing about
This is an absurd claim. We know plenty about their software engineering process by just looking at what they've produced: a bug-ridden rewrite that has been in development way longer than it should have. We don't need the source to know things are bad.

This is simply incorrect and it's exactly the kind of insensitive stuff that is so unbecoming of us. I don't understand how the article you link is relevant for supporting your claim. I don't know what evidence you have to support your claim that their software is "bad".

I really think you should reconsider your opinion.
Likewise, I would really appreciate some evidence from you to support the contrary. My post was talking about their software engineering practices, not the software itself.

I'm not trying to say they're amazing. I'm not making a positive claim here. You said they were bad, I'm asking you to prove it, I don't have a burden of proof here. My position is that we don't know enough about their SW engineering practices to make a judgment about them.

I would think it takes evidence to back up the strong words that have been used about them, and the evidence that has been presented so far has not been valid or compelling to me.
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werothegreat

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2015, 04:04:00 pm »
+2

You are absolutely correct that things are getting better - I agree! What makes us all so frustrated is that one of the big reasons things are getting better is that they just gave us a way to turn off a feature that they added. Months later, we (most visibly) went one step back, one step forward.

Now there are features I like they've added they don't get enough credit for: re-match, for one, is amazing. It could use some work (start player based on loser of previous match, for example) but the ability itself is splendid and I use it a lot.

On the other hand, I think it's reasonable to feel that

1) things are getting better
2) things aren't getting better fast enough

because at the pace they're going, it is entirely reasonable to think it will take a year to get to an online client most of us would be happy with. And even then, I'd be worried you were being optimistic. We saw how the long wait for a re-write left us with something identical.

It's not impossible to both be happy with improvements and frustrated with the pace.

They've said a few times that with them not having to keep Goko functional, they can make changes a lot faster.
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Voltaire

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2015, 04:07:26 pm »
+2

They've said a few times that with them not having to keep Goko functional, they can make changes a lot faster.

I certainly want this to be true. But this is a great example of what I'm talking about - I've heard this before. Back when they re-wrote all the code, I thought, "Oh hey, a lot of this is crap, but they're starting from scratch - so many of these fundamental flaws can be fixed! Then it'll just be standard bugs/fancy feature-adding to the finish line. Huzzah!"

So I want to believe the pace of improvement is going to increase. I really do. But I have no faith that reality will materialize. I would love to be wrong.
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gkrieg13

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2015, 04:13:09 pm »
0

I think it's just a lot easier to change your own code instead of other people's.
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microman

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2015, 05:16:59 pm »
+2

I please hope that what I have to say will be heard amongst the fighting.  I THINK MF DOMINION IS BASICALLY THERE WITH BEING A BETTER EXPEREIENCE  THAN GOKO. 
HOWEVER, it would be nice if we could be matched with other people our similar skill level.  This is actually super important imo, but I'm not gonna rage about it, I think enough people have done that already.  I've not been posting during this conflict about MF, not because I don't care.  I actually care ALOT!  I Can agree with things on both sides of the argument.  I think MF is almost there guys.  If they can just add a matchmaker and fix a few other MINOR issues, I think we would have a product we ALL can enjoy.
Thanks, Microman
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 05:18:32 pm by microman »
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SCSN

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2015, 05:39:43 pm »
+6

so that you can look good by offering to do this.

Looking good to some people on the internet is the last thing I care about. I would never have picked this username if it were otherwise. I'm spending my evening on writing these posts because I want to make things up. There are some unanswered posts in the patch thread right now that I'd find much more joy in responding to (let alone actually working on the thing), so if nothing else: at least grant me the courtesy of accepting that my intentions are genuine.

It didn't make me feel good, and until you realize that

You banning me from your chat so that I couldn't comment on the championship match—something I had been looking forward to for most of the afternoon—didn't feel good either. Mic eventually unbanned me out of pity after I sent him countless of tear-soaked pms, but it was only for the last two games, and the whole affair had already ruined what would otherwise have been an enjoyable experience.

We've both done and/or said things the other would rather have seen we didn't, so we're both responsible for things getting ugly between us (and I do understand most the things you wrote). I don't think exhaustively recounting who did what, determining the precise share of blame and screaming at the other person that he should be the one making amends is going to bring us any closer to a resolution, so I'll leave it at this: I'm willing to get over it and be happy to forgive and move on. I hope you're willing to do the same.

Quote
...and if we can get past that, we may visit all of the personal attacks you've made on me in the chat during my league matches when I wasn't looking.

There are two things I should make clear about my comments on people's Dominion game in the chat of streams and, to a lesser extent, also on this forum in general:

1. I'm saying the exact same things to people's faces as I say behind their back. My comments to streams are made with the full knowledge that they might and probably will be read back later, so there's absolutely no sneakiness or cowardice going on. I take full responsibility for all of them. I'm also not applying different standards to different people, except for the common sense thing of focussing on the big issues with worse players and the smaller issues with better ones who are more likely to do the big things right.

2. None of my comments about someone's game are ever meant as a judgment of the player as a human being. I mean, I do horrible things and pick atrocious strategies all the time and say exactly that about my own game in my stream, that doesn't make me a terrible person lol. In fact I cannot comprehend why people would ever conflate the two. Would anyone take it personal if a 3-year old came up to them and said "bladeeboo daa"? I'm exactly like that 3-year old, although he's likely more intelligent and definitely more inventive. I'm just spewing nonsense all the time, though usually with a core of seriousness inside them. Laugh off the hull—that's what it's meant for most of all—and you get to the useful bit within.
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AdamH

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2015, 06:21:50 pm »
+2

How did you know I have a soft spot for Will Smith?

Let me be clear: if you say something that I think is personal or beyond the line, I'm not going to have any extra tolerance for it.

But anyways, I'll go the other 10% here. We can be fine again.
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SCSN

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2015, 06:26:40 pm »
+6

Man, I offered you a handshake, a kiss is taking things too far.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2015, 06:36:10 pm »
+2

Man, all I want is a game that does not lag and adventures would be nice
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