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AdamH

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Improving Online Dominion
« on: October 19, 2015, 01:09:42 pm »
+11

Hi. I'm Adam. ("Hello, Adam.") You may remember me from Dominion. I'm also that jerk who was talking smack in SCSN's thread about his dll patches, the one who was overly paranoid about a bunch of stuff that nobody cares about, and the "MF Apologist." I was asked to stop polluting that thread with my differing opinion, which clearly and indisputably shows that my point of view is patently incorrect, so I did. I unfollowed that thread and stopped posting in it. I then made the mistake of going back to read it over the weekend and it made me deeply sad inside, but that's not exactly what I made this thread to talk about.

Let's assume that you're all right about all of this. Let's assume that MF's developers are completely incompetent and that we are entitled to a better gaming experience than what they offer. I am not conceding this point, but even if you believe all of this, it doesn't change this fact:

The only way we have of playing Dominion Online rests with Making Fun, and that will not change unless something big and unforseen happens.

If you don't like it, sorry. That's the way it is. I wish we still had Goko around, but we don't and it's not coming back. I still want to play Dominion Online and I want that experience to be as good as possible, I would assume that's what we all want here. Here's another fact that people seem to be losing sight of:

The MF Dominion client has been improving, and it still is being developed so it will continue to improve.

If you don't think it's improving fast enough, sorry. That's the way it is. If you don't like the order in which they choose to make their improvements, sorry. That's the wa--

Wait a tick, shouldn't we have a voice in this? Yeah actually we should. The problem is that our voice as a community has been really bad. We've spent pages of posts complaining about MF's software engineering process that we know absolutely nothing about. We've spent pages of posts complaining about MF's source code that we know absolutely nothing about (fact: stuff that gets spit out of a decompiler does not resemble the code MF writes, and is not grounds to criticize their design or anything else about them).

As a community, we've become so high on finding every small detail we can latch onto to say hateful things about MF and its developers. Whether or not you feel this is justified (pro tip: it isn't), it has resulted in representatives from MF no longer reading this forum (to my knowledge) and certainly not being able to get anything useful out of it.

A year ago, I bragged about this community to people I introduced the game to; today, I'm ashamed to be a part of it. The threads in here (the Dominion Online sub-board) have become so toxic, I'm seeing a side of people I used to have respect for that makes me want to have nothing to do with them. As a community, is this really what we want? Do we want to burn the bridge we have with MF, to throw away our chance to have our voice heard and to have features added that will make us happy?

A good portion of you just answered that question in your heads "yes". Really? You should seriously re-think that. If you think we have nothing to lose by doing this, that it's already completely hopeless, that's just not true. Uninstall the patch and look at the difference in animations between v40 and v43. It's not perfect now but it's come a long way, and do you know why? Because MF listened to people and improved their software from that. If you think that even if they listened to us they aren't capable of doing what we want, why does that matter? I mean, it's not true, so we are losing something here; it's either wait for MF to  is this (pardon my language, I didn't make this term up) "circle jerk" worth it? I love whining just as much as the next guy, does it feel so good to whine and complain the way we are that it's worth throwing away our chances to have a voice? I really think you should reconsider.

We got less than 10 replies into pst's poll and already it's turned so toxic there. Just the results of that poll could be really helpful in letting MF know the one feature that's the most important to us as a community, but you can't scroll very far down the page before it's hard to take it seriously. People trying desperately to get something constructive out of this community are treated like crap, and it's really frustrating to be in that position. We're treating our own members with the same lack of respect we're giving MF (I don't know how pst feels, but I certainly feel that way). Why are we doing this? We are gaining nothing and losing everything.

Finally, the following is a harsh reality that needs to be said:

The dll patch is getting in the way of making Dominion Online a better experience.

Look, a decent amount of work has gone into that, and I'm not going to deny that it seems to make people's experience with v43 more enjoyable. Great. If you want to use it for your own benefit, if you want to sink time into expanding its capabilities, go right ahead and do that. Let's assume that it isn't a total waste of time. The fact is that MF is still making versions of their software that will eventually incorporate these features in a way that is actually robust and sustainable. The dll patch is a bandage that needs to be replaced every time there's an update to the software: the more complex and fancy you make that bandage, the more work it is to replace it. There is no guarantee that the dll patch isn't introducing new problems into the equation, and if someone experiences an issue that they want to report to MF, it can't really be handled properly with the patch installed.

Let me be clear: the patch in a vacuum is not the problem, it's the way our community has handled the patch and made grossly incorrect assumptions about the reality of MF's product from it. Did anyone out there ask MF if they could contribute in a constructive way towards Online Dominion by asking if MF would make a public-facing API or log file interface or something so that the changes made by the dll patch would be scalable, sustainable, etc? This would be a much better solution: something a lot more like Salvager, only still compatible with MF's continued development of their product.

If you don't want to be part of the solution, if you want to use the patch, fine. But if that's the route you take, please don't scream obcenities at the top of your lungs while the people who actually want to help are trying to have a mature conversation. The community here a year ago would have been able to handle this, let's see if it still can.
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Voltaire

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2015, 01:22:27 pm »
+6

Adam, I think you are taking a lot of things personally that are not meant personally. I also think you, I, and the majority of the rest of the forums want the same thing - good online Dominion. I also think you are committing the (understandable) internet mistake of assuming the (worst) few are representative of the many.

As an example, pst's poll is excellent and I see nothing negative directed at him in that thread. I see some comments that the poll could have been set up differently, but that's a normal discussion about the topic at hand and not an attack on him as the OP.

Anyway, post in the MF forums! Link them to pst's thread! I think the best way to improve Dominion Online is to lead by example (as opposed to long threads like this, but I know your heart's in the right place). I shall endeavor to do so as well.
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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2015, 01:24:37 pm »
+4

"I wish we still had Goko around..."  Not a phrase I ever thought I'd hear uttered.  And honestly I think MF now is a much better company, and in much better shape, than Goko was at release.  Yes, they're clinging to a lot of old Goko shit for "feature parity", but most of the things they've created on their own and introduced have been quite nice.  Look at the art in the campaigns, the overall design for the store and kingdom generator and such (barring whatever the hell they did to the seeking game crystal ball).  It looks a lot better than Goko's.

Was MF's first "open beta" version disappointing?  Yes.  Do they still have issues to work on?  Certainly.  Is yelling at them like a dog who took a shit on your carpet going to help?  No.  I doubt yelling at a shitting dog even helps in that instance.  We need to be firm, persistent, and critical, but not hateful. 
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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2015, 01:37:57 pm »
+1

The latest version MF has some options to turn off animations.
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popsofctown

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2015, 01:41:56 pm »
+1

I want a deckbuilder to be a big deal someday, top 10 twitch thing someday.  I don't really care whether it's Dominion, but at the current trajectory, that deckbuilder will never be Dominion.  So I'm partial to the idea of online Dominion dying, that one day the deckbuilding flames may be reborn with a Big Deckbuilder, whether or not it's DXV that makes it, and he very well may, he's a great designer.

Such a death has a minor personal cost to me, as I do enjoy a little online Dominion from time to time, even in the current rough state.  But it's not a big deal to me to go play my second favorite game while I wait for the Second Coming.

Perhaps AdamH will be less frustrated with the unconstructive nature of my posting in light of this knowledge.  Honesty is better than the alternative, right?
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Hugovj

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2015, 01:42:22 pm »
+1

As an example, pst's poll is excellent and I see nothing negative directed at him in that thread. I see some comments that the poll could have been set up differently, but that's a normal discussion about the topic at hand and not an attack on him as the OP.

Anyway, post in the MF forums! Link them to pst's thread! I think the best way to improve Dominion Online is to lead by example (as opposed to long threads like this, but I know your heart's in the right place). I shall endeavor to do so as well.
I think Adam meant the comments directed at MF:
I really hope they go bankrupt if not today, then at least tomorrow, but seeing that they've just started branching out into the highly profitable business of selling fake passports, visa's and driving licenses, we're likely stuck with them for the foreseeable future.
With Goko/MF it's exactly the opposite. Whatever they do, they always find some way to screw it up.
Sure the functionality meets the basic needs, but you know they never used it much themselves, nor did they have a good feeling for the people that were going to.
Whoever works on it probably wishes he was doing something else.
I think this isn't a tone at which you're likely to let MF know: Oh, this guy, we should take him seriously. I think I wouldn't. However, most points SCSN makes in his post are truly valid: the match making is far from ideal and the chat should be in another place. I just don't get why it has to be said with this in the appendix. Also, the bold claims Stef makes in his post aren't really showing 'imagining other people complexly'.
And this surely isn't the harshest topic, and these surely not the harshest example and no one should feel like I'm attacking them personally. Because, frankly, I'm not.

However, I think we and MF both want a good Dominion experience: why else would they waste so much time and effort on making a product at all. Sure, the thing is far from perfect and I can name 5 things I would like changed from the top of my head. However, I don't think they're trying to 'ruin' Dominion Online once and for all and they eat orphan flesh and build meat dragons and they have a secret lab to go to and then they think of a plan, scream 'it's brilliant, brilliant, brrrilliant' and then laugh with a lightning strike on the background.
I honestly don't.

popsofctown

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2015, 01:47:04 pm »
+8

If anyone needs to be personally attacked, I volunteer as tribute.
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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2015, 01:58:55 pm »
+3

I wish we still had Goko around

I don't. I vastly prefer MF's Windows client over Goko + Salvager. With SCSN's patch, I prefer it over Isotropic. The reason why it's good now is that they've changed most of the things we've complained about. Complaining about it here might not help much, but if it doesn't help, it doesn't hurt either. I think the main thing that we could be doing better is taking the complaints to f.mf.
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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2015, 01:59:59 pm »
+9

I think you make a lot of very valid points about the fact that MF is who we've got, and if we love Dominion enough (as most of us do), finding constructive ways to approach the problems with the latest version are the best way to go.

However, I don't see how taking steps to make the game a more pleasant experience (with either the original Salavger or SCSN's .dll removing of animations) is not a constructive approach.  Complaining about MF being terrible?  Yeah, that gets us nowhere.  But the popularity of the original Salavger and its features directly influenced things that were done in 2.0 - just look at the in-game log.  I think the most proactive thing anyone can do is to say "this is not good enough, and I'm taking it into my own hands."  That tells the developers how many people are dissatisfied with the problems and to what extent people are willing to do something about it.

What confuses me about your complaints is that this hardly seems different than the original Salvager in terms of its scope, and you didn't seem to have any problems with that fan-made extension to the original software.  You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see any difference, nor any real way in which it is more harmful.

Also, so this doesn't seem personal, as I post here like twice a year, I want to commend you for your contributions to the community!  Your streams and League championship commentary are excellent, and you are a great ambassador for Dominion!  I think it would do everyone well to look more toward a common goal of improving the online experience (which I'm sure everyone can agree on) and get past this in-fighting over how much everything sucks.
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popsofctown

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2015, 02:07:10 pm »
0


What confuses me about your complaints is that this hardly seems different than the original Salvager in terms of its scope, and you didn't seem to have any problems with that fan-made extension to the original software.

It's the difference between making a new steering wheel for people to rip the factory wheel out of their Camrys and replace in if they're unsatisfied, versus selling a pair of driving gloves suggested for Camrys, in terms of architecture.  There is some difference there.
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Watno

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2015, 02:09:39 pm »
+7

The dll patch is getting in the way of making Dominion Online a better experience.

Look, a decent amount of work has gone into that, and I'm not going to deny that it seems to make people's experience with v43 more enjoyable. Great. If you want to use it for your own benefit, if you want to sink time into expanding its capabilities, go right ahead and do that. Let's assume that it isn't a total waste of time. The fact is that MF is still making versions of their software that will eventually incorporate these features in a way that is actually robust and sustainable. The dll patch is a bandage that needs to be replaced every time there's an update to the software: the more complex and fancy you make that bandage, the more work it is to replace it. There is no guarantee that the dll patch isn't introducing new problems into the equation, and if someone experiences an issue that they want to report to MF, it can't really be handled properly with the patch installed.

Let me be clear: the patch in a vacuum is not the problem, it's the way our community has handled the patch and made grossly incorrect assumptions about the reality of MF's product from it. Did anyone out there ask MF if they could contribute in a constructive way towards Online Dominion by asking if MF would make a public-facing API or log file interface or something so that the changes made by the dll patch would be scalable, sustainable, etc? This would be a much better solution: something a lot more like Salvager, only still compatible with MF's continued development of their product.

If you don't want to be part of the solution, if you want to use the patch, fine. But if that's the route you take, please don't scream obcenities at the top of your lungs while the people who actually want to help are trying to have a mature conversation. The community here a year ago would have been able to handle this, let's see if it still can.

I dont understand your argument. How does any of this get in the way of makingOnline Dominion a better experience?
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SCSN

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2015, 02:16:02 pm »
+5

The dll patch is getting in the way of making Dominion Online a better experience.

Lol! I take full responsibility for Dominion Online not being a lot better than it currently is. Sorry guys! Please don't beat me up too hard.

Quote
Let's assume that it isn't a total waste of time.

Of course it's a total waste of time—all of life is, including the ten thousands of hours we collectively spend playing Dominion. But what a marvelous waste it all is!

I love working on the patch, I love what the patch ends up doing for me, and I love that other people love what the patch ends up doing for them. The only thing I'm disappointed about is that you failed to appreciate this great gesture of love. I even included a function specifically for you:

Code: [Select]
private void checkUsername(string username)
{
    if(username == "Adam Horton")
    {
        demandInKingdom(Cards.BlackMarket);
    }
}

But even this I don't consider a waste of time, as I'm sure that you'll see the light some day (both with the patch and with Black Market). In the meantime: good luck with your own ways of making Dominion Online a better experience. They dramatically differ from mine, but the world would be one hell of a boring place if we all did the same thing.
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AdamH

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2015, 02:17:27 pm »
+5

Adam, I think you are taking a lot of things personally that are not meant personally. I also think you, I, and the majority of the rest of the forums want the same thing - good online Dominion. I also think you are committing the (understandable) internet mistake of assuming the (worst) few are representative of the many.

The one thing I took personally: being asked to stop posting in SCSN's thread. Countless posts are critical of MF developers in a way that is insensitive enough to be taken personally by them if they read them, and as a developer myself I empathize with them. Whether or not these things were meant personally doesn't excuse how insensitive they are.

As an example, pst's poll is excellent and I see nothing negative directed at him in that thread. I see some comments that the poll could have been set up differently, but that's a normal discussion about the topic at hand and not an attack on him as the OP.

If I was him, I'd be annoyed at the way that discussion has gone. But I tried to be careful not to speak for him on that matter. Sorry if I was unclear.

Anyway, post in the MF forums! Link them to pst's thread! I think the best way to improve Dominion Online is to lead by example (as opposed to long threads like this, but I know your heart's in the right place). I shall endeavor to do so as well.

I have PMs and E-mails with various members of the MF staff. Things have been improved as a direct result of these things. I've been trying my best to get some feedback from this community to give to them, but it's so difficult and frustrating to do. I'm going to continue doing what I'm doing, this thread has little to do with that.


I want a deckbuilder to be a big deal someday, top 10 twitch thing someday.  I don't really care whether it's Dominion, but at the current trajectory, that deckbuilder will never be Dominion.  So I'm partial to the idea of online Dominion dying, that one day the deckbuilding flames may be reborn with a Big Deckbuilder, whether or not it's DXV that makes it, and he very well may, he's a great designer.

Such a death has a minor personal cost to me, as I do enjoy a little online Dominion from time to time, even in the current rough state.  But it's not a big deal to me to go play my second favorite game while I wait for the Second Coming.

Perhaps AdamH will be less frustrated with the unconstructive nature of my posting in light of this knowledge.  Honesty is better than the alternative, right?

I want a deckbuilder to be the same thing. I've spent countless hours making Dominion on Twitch a thing; providing resources for people to get streaming, trying to grow the audience in every single way I can imagine for my stream but also for everyone who wants to stream Dominion. I think I can safely say that I've done more on this front than anyone else in the world, by a lot. Dominion is certainly the closest thing we have that could get there: I'm not ready to give up, I'm not even close. It's true that the quality of MF's client will influence Dominion Online's success as a game that's streamed: this is one of the reasons I'm trying so hard to improve it (and have already done far more than anyone else on F.DS with the exception of DXV himself in terms of results).

You have done nothing but whine and say incredibly insensitive, hateful, and just plain incorrect things about MF. Why do you want Dominion to fail? Do you think some other deckbuilder can't succeed as long as anyone is playing Dominion on a computer? I'm trying to build something up here by being productive: you have done the exact opposite. So while I appreciate your honesty, I will still ask you to change.


What confuses me about your complaints is that this hardly seems different than the original Salvager in terms of its scope, and you didn't seem to have any problems with that fan-made extension to the original software.  You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see any difference, nor any real way in which it is more harmful.

I dont understand your argument. How does any of this get in the way of makingOnline Dominion a better experience?

Thank you for asking this, I will try to elaborate on this so it makes more sense, because I can see how it wouldn't. If I get details wrong, I'm sorry, but I've heard directly from the developers that this is the case so I can assure you that if there's a hole in my argument, it's because I screwed up talking about it.

Salvager came about (for the most part) after Goko was done making changes on its software, though there was some overlap. Most of the features of Salvager didn't involve changing the way Goko's client functioned, but rather reading certain bits of information and using the browser to present them in a way that was more pleasing. There was pretty much no risk of messing up the way Goko ran because you were running Salvager.

This is not entirely true, some of the features added later on did this, but if I remember correctly (some details are admittedly a little fuzzy, so if I'm wrong please someone correct me) that was done after it was clear Goko wasn't ever going to get better without being scrapped and turned into what we have now with MF. The important distinction is that we weren't getting in the way of Goko improving their product the right way.

The dll patch doesn't do any of these things in that same way. It modifies the binaries that are running MF's app, so it's plausible that problems could be introduced this way. This actually makes it harder for MF to track down issues because now you have to verify that it's not because of the dll patch. Effectively, your feedback isn't valuable to MF if you are using the dll patch while collecting it.

It's implementing features that MF is planning to implement anyways, which seems a little strange to me, but that particular part isn't hurting anything other than our reputation. I also realize I'm not going to win people over trying to argue that: someone made a button you can press that makes things prettier right now, OK some people want to press the button.

There are ways to accomplish what the dll patch does that don't have these issues. They require (or would be greatly aided by) MF's support, but nobody bothered to ask them for it. Maybe it's not possible, but man, did we have to just do this thing without even asking?
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AdamH

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2015, 02:26:13 pm »
+1


You either aren't understanding my point, or you do and you're being a troll. I'd appreciate it if you did neither. Or you could just not post in my thread, I don't appreciate your interference.

Just because you want your patch to be perfect doesn't make it so. There are real consequences to what you're doing, which is why MF has made a EULA that prevents you from doing it. Being insensitive and dismissive doesn't make you correct. Get over yourself.
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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2015, 02:30:27 pm »
+2


You either aren't understanding my point, or you do and you're being a troll. I'd appreciate it if you did neither. Or you could just not post in my thread, I don't appreciate your interference.

Just because you want your patch to be perfect doesn't make it so. There are real consequences to what you're doing, which is why MF has made a EULA that prevents you from doing it. Being insensitive and dismissive doesn't make you correct. Get over yourself.

I'm being friendly here and still you feel the need to go on with this silly hostility? I'm more than willing to bury the hatchet and move on.
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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2015, 02:30:46 pm »
+5

Dudes, you guys both need to troll eachother's threads.  It's better for the long term if people butt heads and express their ideas.  Where would the world be if Stephen Douglas asked Lincoln to go home so he could switch over to monologue as soon as they disagreed in the debate, or vice versa. 

It was wrong for SCSN to tell you to leave his thread, and it is wrong for you to tell SCSN to leave this thread.  As long as you're on topic and not disrupting a forum game, you should have free speech to communicate your ideas in any on-topic thread you choose.  You guys need to respectfully agree to disagree about things and both let the community hear your angle on the story so that we benefit from the maximum number of view points and maximum amount of discussion.  Neither of you have like, told somebody there mother is a murloc, so there's nothing intolerable about the manner of disagreement such that it's not beneficial.
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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2015, 02:31:05 pm »
+9

There are ways to accomplish what the dll patch does that don't have these issues. They require (or would be greatly aided by) MF's support, but nobody bothered to ask them for it. Maybe it's not possible, but man, did we have to just do this thing without even asking?

People have been asking for specific features for over a year.  Over and over and over we've had polls and discussions about what we want to see changed, what's the worst problem, what information do we send to MF, etc.  And so far MF has responded with almost nothing.  Not a damn thing.

So someone decides to take care of some of the features in an entirely optional patch that is a pain to install--this isn't a Chrome plugin that you just click a button--and your best argument against the patch is that MF might not be able to tell if a problem is caused by the changed DLL.  But the only people who are using the changed DLL are the sort of people who can figure out that if there's a bug, and they want to send info to MF, they're going to have to remove the patch.  Seriously, come on, you're assuming that we're all unreasonable or stupid.

More later...
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Witherweaver

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2015, 02:32:58 pm »
+4

I don't think the concerns raised against SCSN's patch are very well founded.  I suppose you have a point that if everyone here just stopped talking to MF and only relied on SCSN to make to playable, then they would have a hard time knowing what the clients (us) want, but I don't think that's going to happen.   They don't seem to be in danger of not knowing what things are wrong.

I'm not sure you should be differentiating it from Salvager so much.  It's an end-user modification that changes your game experience, and individuals get to choose whether to use it or not.  These things are good, and really shouldn't be discouraged. 
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Witherweaver

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2015, 02:34:38 pm »
0

Dudes, you guys both need to troll eachother's threads.  It's better for the long term if people butt heads and express their ideas.  Where would the world be if Stephen Douglas asked Lincoln to go home so he could switch over to monologue as soon as they disagreed in the debate, or vice versa. 

It was wrong for SCSN to tell you to leave his thread, and it is wrong for you to tell SCSN to leave this thread.  As long as you're on topic and not disrupting a forum game, you should have free speech to communicate your ideas in any on-topic thread you choose.  You guys need to respectfully agree to disagree about things and both let the community hear your angle on the story so that we benefit from the maximum number of view points and maximum amount of discussion.  Neither of you have like, told somebody there mother is a murloc, so there's nothing intolerable about the manner of disagreement such that it's not beneficial.

Pretty sure that kind of talk belongs over in the Hearthstone threads.  This here is about Dominion.
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AdamH

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2015, 02:35:58 pm »
0

I'm being friendly here and still you feel the need to go on with this silly hostility? I'm more than willing to bury the hatchet and move on.

If you want to bury the hatchet, start here.

please leave this thread alone.

And until you have something meaningful to add to this discussion, then I would prefer it if you said nothing.

Just because you call yourself friendly doesn't mean you are.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2015, 02:36:22 pm »
0

There are ways to accomplish what the dll patch does that don't have these issues. They require (or would be greatly aided by) MF's support, but nobody bothered to ask them for it. Maybe it's not possible, but man, did we have to just do this thing without even asking?

People have been asking for specific features for over a year.  Over and over and over we've had polls and discussions about what we want to see changed, what's the worst problem, what information do we send to MF, etc.  And so far MF has responded with almost nothing.  Not a damn thing.

So someone decides to take care of some of the features in an entirely optional patch that is a pain to install--this isn't a Chrome plugin that you just click a button--and your best argument against the patch is that MF might not be able to tell if a problem is caused by the changed DLL.  But the only people who are using the changed DLL are the sort of people who can figure out that if there's a bug, and they want to send info to MF, they're going to have to remove the patch.  Seriously, come on, you're assuming that we're all unreasonable or stupid.

More later...

This is basically what I was getting at above, but better said.

Though, in MF's defense, they did speed up the game quite a bit in their recent releases, which is (I believe) one of the things the patch does.
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Kirian

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2015, 02:36:56 pm »
0

There are real consequences to what you're doing, which is why MF has made a EULA that prevents you from doing it.

Donald made it clear that if MF tried to enforce that part of the EULA with any sort of sanctions on SCSN (or anyone using the patch), that he would be supremely unhappy... and that he can pull the plug on MF.
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SCSN

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2015, 02:45:50 pm »
+3

I'm being friendly here and still you feel the need to go on with this silly hostility? I'm more than willing to bury the hatchet and move on.

If you want to bury the hatchet, start here.

please leave this thread alone.

The meaning of the paragraph I wrote can't be reduced to its final segment, so here is it in its entirety:

To be clear: I made this patch for my personal use and decided to release it for the benefit of others. If you like to use it: you're welcome and I'll continue to provice you updates for as long as I'm capable. If you're not interested: you're equally welcome, but please leave this thread alone.

To make another attempt at reconciliation: you're more than welcome to resume posting in my thread, though I'm personally not interested in legal considerations and to the extent that there is stuff you'd still like to add on that specific matter, it's better to discuss that in a separate thread (taking into account Donald's excellent response explaining why any legal action from MF would be extremely unlikely).
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AdamH

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2015, 02:46:14 pm »
0

There are ways to accomplish what the dll patch does that don't have these issues. They require (or would be greatly aided by) MF's support, but nobody bothered to ask them for it. Maybe it's not possible, but man, did we have to just do this thing without even asking?

People have been asking for specific features for over a year.  Over and over and over we've had polls and discussions about what we want to see changed, what's the worst problem, what information do we send to MF, etc.  And so far MF has responded with almost nothing.  Not a damn thing.

So someone decides to take care of some of the features in an entirely optional patch that is a pain to install--this isn't a Chrome plugin that you just click a button--and your best argument against the patch is that MF might not be able to tell if a problem is caused by the changed DLL.  But the only people who are using the changed DLL are the sort of people who can figure out that if there's a bug, and they want to send info to MF, they're going to have to remove the patch.  Seriously, come on, you're assuming that we're all unreasonable or stupid.

More later...

This is basically what I was getting at above, but better said.

Though, in MF's defense, they did speed up the game quite a bit in their recent releases, which is (I believe) one of the things the patch does.

The whole point of this thread is to get people like you to reconsider your views. You're upset, but the facts behind the reasons why you're upset are just incorrect.

If they're not moving fast enough for you, sorry. But they're getting things done, and tearing them down will only make it take longer.

Seriously, come on, you're assuming that we're all unreasonable or stupid.

Have you been reading the posts here? Just see it from MF's perspective and you'll understand why they don't post here anymore.


There are real consequences to what you're doing, which is why MF has made a EULA that prevents you from doing it.

Donald made it clear that if MF tried to enforce that part of the EULA with any sort of sanctions on SCSN (or anyone using the patch), that he would be supremely unhappy... and that he can pull the plug on MF.

Well I don't think they're going to enforce that (to the best of my knowledge) so it doesn't really matter: the point I was trying to make is that we never considered working with them, we just skipped right to the part where we're getting in their way.

And I don't know what Donald's intentions are, but suffice it to say that I think pulling the plug on MF for doing that would be a really bad move on his part and I would lose a lot of respect for him. Luckily, that's not happening in this universe so it doesn't matter at all.
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pubby

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Re: Improving Online Dominion
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2015, 02:49:00 pm »
+1

We've spent pages of posts complaining about MF's software engineering process that we know absolutely nothing about. We've spent pages of posts complaining about MF's source code that we know absolutely nothing about
This is an absurd claim. We know plenty about their software engineering process by just looking at what they've produced: a bug-ridden rewrite that has been in development way longer than it should have. We don't need the source to know things are bad.
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