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Author Topic: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)  (Read 64961 times)

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SCSN

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2015, 09:11:36 am »
0

Well, I'd say make it optional.  I agree that sometimes you want to know, definitely.  But I think many cases you can't actually do much with this information.    Maybe you always want to know anyway, so make it a setting.

I happened to have just requested exactly this.

The main problem for me is that I can't get the damn thing to run. I downloaded the new client yesterday and it won't stop segfaulting when starting up. Has anyone been able to get it running on Linux?

yed is running it in Linux, at least the previous version, not sure about the current one.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 09:12:52 am by SheCantSayNo »
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2015, 10:50:12 am »
+1

I don't like that I see the cards my opponent reveals with Hunting Party, Golem, etc., or chooses with, e.g., Scheme.  They pop up in the "reveal" space and it pauses the entire game while I see a bunch of (in many cases, not useful) information.  I should be able to request this information if I want it, not have to sit through the process.

This is at the highest animation speed with minimal visual effects.

So you're saying at the highest speed it's still too slow for you? I was under the impression that putting it on the highest speed was effectively skipping it (like the "very fast" animations on Goko). I will take a closer look tonight with a timer but you're much more likely to get it so that the highest speed is super-fast than otherwise.

If I can understand precisely what you want (maybe I already can but I won't be able to dig into this until tomorrow), I know the developers are actively seeking that feedback from me.


On an unrelated note, it's probably time to cash in on the value of this poll: it wouldn't surprise me if MF prioritized the number one answer of this poll (and then once it's fixed we make another poll, or tell them about second place?) which is currently that we can't get matchups that we like.

What do we know about the MF rating system? Have we figured out if this is a problem with the rating system and/or the matchmaking system? The feedback as I understand it is "the people I'm playing with are n00bs. Look at all of these n00b plays! LOL!" and that's not exactly something we can go to MF with and have them know what to do. Are we able to see the ratings of these people (and ourselves) that are used in the calculations?

If we can zero in on what the problem here is, it's much more likely to get better in the near future.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2015, 11:02:50 am »
+2

I don't like that I see the cards my opponent reveals with Hunting Party, Golem, etc., or chooses with, e.g., Scheme.  They pop up in the "reveal" space and it pauses the entire game while I see a bunch of (in many cases, not useful) information.  I should be able to request this information if I want it, not have to sit through the process.

This is at the highest animation speed with minimal visual effects.

So you're saying at the highest speed it's still too slow for you? I was under the impression that putting it on the highest speed was effectively skipping it (like the "very fast" animations on Goko). I will take a closer look tonight with a timer but you're much more likely to get it so that the highest speed is super-fast than otherwise.

If I can understand precisely what you want (maybe I already can but I won't be able to dig into this until tomorrow), I know the developers are actively seeking that feedback from me.


On an unrelated note, it's probably time to cash in on the value of this poll: it wouldn't surprise me if MF prioritized the number one answer of this poll (and then once it's fixed we make another poll, or tell them about second place?) which is currently that we can't get matchups that we like.

What do we know about the MF rating system? Have we figured out if this is a problem with the rating system and/or the matchmaking system? The feedback as I understand it is "the people I'm playing with are n00bs. Look at all of these n00b plays! LOL!" and that's not exactly something we can go to MF with and have them know what to do. Are we able to see the ratings of these people (and ourselves) that are used in the calculations?

If we can zero in on what the problem here is, it's much more likely to get better in the near future.

I can give my impression but I may be wrong.

In this version, I dont think you can actually see your MF rating anywhere? So you get matched with someone the computer thinks is at your skill level but you dont actually know what their rating is compared to yours and it goes straight to the game without giving you a choice to accept or decline the match.

 Trying to challenge a player you know is complicated by the fact that there is no way to tell who is currently online. Any number of things could help here: a friends list that shows if friends are on, a comprehensive list of all players online, even a challenge room where you can go to make yourself available to being challenged.

No one really seems to know what it means when you select the option to only play people with 1000 or less below your rating but it doesn't seem to mean all that much. That option should be adjustable so that you can control who you end up playing on seek mode more finely.

Edit: my experience is limited to a few dozen games on the web alpha so others may have more experience with this than me.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 11:19:51 am by iguanaiguana »
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2015, 11:03:08 am »
+6

I don't like that I see the cards my opponent reveals with Hunting Party, Golem, etc., or chooses with, e.g., Scheme.  They pop up in the "reveal" space and it pauses the entire game while I see a bunch of (in many cases, not useful) information.  I should be able to request this information if I want it, not have to sit through the process.

This is at the highest animation speed with minimal visual effects.

So you're saying at the highest speed it's still too slow for you? I was under the impression that putting it on the highest speed was effectively skipping it (like the "very fast" animations on Goko). I will take a closer look tonight with a timer but you're much more likely to get it so that the highest speed is super-fast than otherwise.

If I can understand precisely what you want (maybe I already can but I won't be able to dig into this until tomorrow), I know the developers are actively seeking that feedback from me.


On an unrelated note, it's probably time to cash in on the value of this poll: it wouldn't surprise me if MF prioritized the number one answer of this poll (and then once it's fixed we make another poll, or tell them about second place?) which is currently that we can't get matchups that we like.

What do we know about the MF rating system? Have we figured out if this is a problem with the rating system and/or the matchmaking system? The feedback as I understand it is "the people I'm playing with are n00bs. Look at all of these n00b plays! LOL!" and that's not exactly something we can go to MF with and have them know what to do. Are we able to see the ratings of these people (and ourselves) that are used in the calculations?

If we can zero in on what the problem here is, it's much more likely to get better in the near future.

I don't know why I'm telling you this, but...

Andrew wrote some excellent posts about the goko rating system and what's wrong with it. It bottles down to the fact that they have the basics right but with some very badly tuned parameters.

The main mistake in tuning their parameters is that the decay is way too high.
The other major mistakes they make are a) claiming it's very complicated instead of just explaining it and b) including bot games.

I'm sure that if MF is actually interested in doing it right they can get the exact parameters isotropish is using completely for free.
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Witherweaver

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2015, 11:06:09 am »
0

I don't like that I see the cards my opponent reveals with Hunting Party, Golem, etc., or chooses with, e.g., Scheme.  They pop up in the "reveal" space and it pauses the entire game while I see a bunch of (in many cases, not useful) information.  I should be able to request this information if I want it, not have to sit through the process.

This is at the highest animation speed with minimal visual effects.

So you're saying at the highest speed it's still too slow for you? I was under the impression that putting it on the highest speed was effectively skipping it (like the "very fast" animations on Goko). I will take a closer look tonight with a timer but you're much more likely to get it so that the highest speed is super-fast than otherwise.

It's too slow because it's, like, choppy pauses.  Just try* (playing against a bot) with Hunting Party, Golem and look at all the animation you simply don't need.  I mean there is the argument that you want that information, but if you do you probably aren't playing on fastest speed anyway.  On fastest speed, it's just visual noise and actually slowing things down.



Quote
If I can understand precisely what you want (maybe I already can but I won't be able to dig into this until tomorrow), I know the developers are actively seeking that feedback from me.


SCSN's post pretty much nailed it.


*Edit: Try at maximal speed.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 11:12:01 am by Witherweaver »
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2015, 11:07:38 am »
0

I doubt that they are just copying the goko ratings and that some minor flaw they have is causing the phenomenon.  It took me way fewer games to reach 5000 on Goko than it did on MF, and I presume that's because I'm not gaining many rating points when the system is matching me up against 3K rated players.

I dunno, then again, wackness intensity of Goko's ratings is pretty high, I went from like 4100 to 5300 or something ridiculous like that losing a tournament set to Mic after a hiatus.
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ravi

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2015, 11:18:57 am »
+1

On an unrelated note, it's probably time to cash in on the value of this poll: it wouldn't surprise me if MF prioritized the number one answer of this poll (and then once it's fixed we make another poll, or tell them about second place?) which is currently that we can't get matchups that we like.

What do we know about the MF rating system? Have we figured out if this is a problem with the rating system and/or the matchmaking system? The feedback as I understand it is "the people I'm playing with are n00bs. Look at all of these n00b plays! LOL!" and that's not exactly something we can go to MF with and have them know what to do. Are we able to see the ratings of these people (and ourselves) that are used in the calculations?

If we can zero in on what the problem here is, it's much more likely to get better in the near future.

From what I understand the rating system is pretty much the same as Goko's. People are getting "paired with n00bs" because of 2 reasons:
1. They had their ratings dropped because MF ported the ratings over a long time ago and everyone degraded.  Therefore right now the ratings are comparable with n00bs.  This will fix itself with some time.
2. The options to choose a game are severely limited.

We all know there are problems with the rating system (as Stef posted) and that is why many at f.ds prefer Isotropish ratings. However, right now the only option to preselect your opponent by rating is to restrict by 1000 points below your current rating.  This is far too big of a margin, in that I think there is a huge difference between a 3000 and a 4000 level player even if things sort themselves out (not sure how this scales when you get to 5000 and 6000 as I am usually in the low 4000 level).

So what MF can do is make a better matching system with more options. Why not just manually allow people to select their restrictions. Instead of 1000 below being the only option, just let them insert a lower and upper limit if they choose? Then the seeking can wait until someone in that range is seeking a game with their own range including the next player.

Also instead of "Prefer VP Counters" just say "VP counter on" "VP counter off" and "No preference".

If options like this existed I think most of the issues of finding proper matches would go away.

Finally, there has to be a way to see who is online. Maybe someone you had a great game with is online and you want to challenge them, I can't imagine why they make all of that invisible.

TLDR - Bulletpointed requests that will fix matching
  • Allow users to put in a range of ratings they will allow in their seeked games rather than just "above 1000 below my rating"
  • Switch "Prefer VP Counters" to "VP on", "VP off" and "No Preference"
  • Have a list of current players online (those in a game and those not in a game, and with their ranking) so challenging players who are friends or look like good opponents is easier
  • (They won't go for this but we can dream) - Use Isotropish ratings additionally and allow people to demand level from there
  • Before starting a game allow the user to accept the game and see the opponent and their rating (this may muck things up, but it may help as well.)
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2015, 11:53:31 am »
+3

We don't have any idea if the rating restriction is working at all because you can't see the ratings of both players (unless you read through the leaderboard for your opponent). Many people believe the restrictions aren't working properly. But we can't demonstrate it or give any more information about the problem other than "we're getting matched with really bad players" because the client isn't giving anybody more information to pin down the problem.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2015, 12:04:35 pm »
+3

If it's helpful, another way to phrase the problem, is "players are stablizing at winrates that are very far from 50% while using the matchmaker"
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iguanaiguana

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2015, 12:17:23 pm »
0

We don't have any idea if the rating restriction is working at all because you can't see the ratings of both players (unless you read through the leaderboard for your opponent). Many people believe the restrictions aren't working properly. But we can't demonstrate it or give any more information about the problem other than "we're getting matched with really bad players" because the client isn't giving anybody more information to pin down the problem.

This is part of what I was trying to get at with my post. Since Mic is a high level player I'm completely willing to let him get all of the upvotes for pointing this out, but the matter stands that this is probably the biggest issue-within-the-issue right now.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2015, 12:47:01 pm »
0

This may seem like a stupid question, but does anyone else occasionally wonder if their opponent is a bot or a human? Let's say you check the wrong box during matchmaking, is there any way to definitively know during your match that your opponent is human or AI?



(I await your Turing test jokes)
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2015, 12:55:01 pm »
+3

This may seem like a stupid question, but does anyone else occasionally wonder if their opponent is a bot or a human? Let's say you check the wrong box during matchmaking, is there any way to definitively know during your match that your opponent is human or AI?



(I await your Turing test jokes)

Check the log after Turn 1. Bots have "Bot" at the end of their name.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2015, 12:56:07 pm »
0

This may seem like a stupid question, but does anyone else occasionally wonder if their opponent is a bot or a human? Let's say you check the wrong box during matchmaking, is there any way to definitively know during your match that your opponent is human or AI?



(I await your Turing test jokes)

Check the log after Turn 1. Bots have "Bot" at the end of their name.

That's easy. Thanks!
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2015, 12:56:52 pm »
+6

This may seem like a stupid question, but does anyone else occasionally wonder if their opponent is a bot or a human? Let's say you check the wrong box during matchmaking, is there any way to definitively know during your match that your opponent is human or AI?



(I await your Turing test jokes)

Check the log after Turn 1. Bots have "Bot" at the end of their name.

I'm creating an alt account called "Ymyosl Bot"
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2015, 02:09:16 pm »
0

This may seem like a stupid question, but does anyone else occasionally wonder if their opponent is a bot or a human? Let's say you check the wrong box during matchmaking, is there any way to definitively know during your match that your opponent is human or AI?



(I await your Turing test jokes)

Check the log after Turn 1. Bots have "Bot" at the end of their name.

I'm creating an alt account called "Ymyosl Bot"

Do it.  Dooooooo it.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2015, 12:43:22 pm »
+4

I think that partly this thread has become yet another thread about how bad everything is, and with some bad feelings, which we have enought of anyway, and certainly wasn't my intention. I thought it would be interesting to see what the main obstacles are for people using Playdominion now, partly to see if I my own feelings about this were substantiated by others, and partly because the results could be interesting nevertheless, maybe to set priorities.

This is of course only priorities from us, and not from players at large. I think it might be too easy to forget that people here aren't typical players, and that Makingfun now probably have their hands full with customer support for more typical customers, now that Goko is no more. (There were lots of players there the last days.)

Looking at the poll after 80 has answered it we can see that some have problems using it at all, but that is not the case for most respondents. Most of us can use it, and the main complaint is not anything in the gameplay as such, but in what kind of games we are getting into.

Most votes are for not getting "suitable" opponents with the matchmaking, and in the comments (and in other threads) it is seen that this is about good players who think it is beneath them to have to play with beginners, and there have been several examples of exactly how stupid moves their opponents have made. I feel more for the beginners who have had to play against condescending experts, but they are mostly not on this forum. What can be done? The rating system can get better; there can be better settings about who you want to play; ratings can be more visible so experts who haven't reached their true rating yet can see that and how it changes.

Second most votes is about my problem, which I hoped would be number one, in a nice poll which I could then show to Making Fun, "see, it's actually very easy to fix that which bugs most of those forum people". Now it's not really so, but still I'm certainly now alone.

Please make it possible for me to play only with point counter! My main complaint with Goko Salvager was that I couldn't activate automatch together with setting up my own #vpon table, because then I could be transported off from my nice table to a dreaded #vpoff table. With Playdominion it's much worse. Now I actually have to play vpoff fairly often, often probably against people who don't care about the setting, but there is no way to say that. OK, so it's not the number one on the poll, but it is still high up and easy to do something about.

The common theme of these top complaints is that we are forced to play games we don't want to play (or resign). That is actually a general problem, and I think it's unfortunate that Playdominion just starts an automatch game instead of asking searchers if that's what they want to play. I don't think the system has to know why I want to play some people and not some. Just note my wishes and don't immediately make me play the same person again. This now happens on Makingfun a lot. After a game someone proposes a rematch. You answer No for whatever reason and then try to get a new game, and get paired with the very person you just said No to.

I can certainly think of other things I would prefer differently, but I think that top priority should be to not "force" us into games we don't want to play with changes as suggested above, of which one of the most important and the easiest one to implement is to extend point counter settings to on/off/don't-care with the last one being the default.

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2015, 01:26:21 pm »
+4

I think this is as good a place as any to chime in and say I've just recently installed the latest client on both my Windows laptop and my Mac and I'm very happy with the current product.

This is the first time since the early, early days of Goko that I've played Dominion online against human opponents.

This is also the first time I've felt like financially supporting this product. I bought my first expansion last night. A few months ago that's not something I would've considered.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2015, 01:28:39 pm »
0

in the comments (and in other threads) it is seen that this is about good players who think it is beneath them to have to play with beginners, and there have been several examples of exactly how stupid moves their opponents have made. I feel more for the beginners who have had to play against condescending experts

The only thing condescending here is this text of yours. Not liking to play against poor players has nothing to do with thinking it's "beneath us" or some such nonsense, it's just not much fun for anyone if there is a big skill gap in every single game you play.

I don't see why you think poor players are beginners either; most players just plateau at a fairly low level because they don't care about improving their game.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2015, 01:42:49 pm »
+7

Most votes are for not getting "suitable" opponents with the matchmaking, and in the comments (and in other threads) it is seen that this is about good players who think it is beneath them to have to play with beginners, and there have been several examples of exactly how stupid moves their opponents have made. I feel more for the beginners who have had to play against condescending experts, but they are mostly not on this forum.

I wouldn't really say that it's beneath me to have to play with beginners. I play against beginners when they're my friends that I want to introduce to the game, or friends that have already been introduced to Dominion but aren't very good at it. I would play against a random newbie who asked me to help him get better at the game or something like that, too, it just basically never happens. And I super don't think that a lot of other good players think of new players as some sort of lower lifeforms not worthy of their time either; for example, players like Ela and Hugo have pretty much always had pro players watching their streams and giving them advice even back when they were a lot newer than they are now, usually people get replies when they post their games in the Help forum, etc. That's not exactly what I would call condescending.

However, it really is super not fun to get matched against a random newbie on MF. It takes the fun out of the game when the answer to every difficult decision I have to make is "it doesn't matter, I'm going to win anyway". I personally only care about winning or losing during the game and stop caring as soon as the game is over, but I can also see how it's far less rewarding to win easy games for the people that do care, and losing games where shuffle luck plays an enormous role in your loss is something from which you're going to have a hard time learning anything.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2015, 01:58:45 pm »
+2

in the comments (and in other threads) it is seen that this is about good players who think it is beneath them to have to play with beginners, and there have been several examples of exactly how stupid moves their opponents have made. I feel more for the beginners who have had to play against condescending experts

The only thing condescending here is this text of yours. Not liking to play against poor players has nothing to do with thinking it's "beneath us" or some such nonsense, it's just not much fun for anyone if there is a big skill gap in every single game you play.

I'm gonna disagree with SCSN here (big shock, I know). I don't see anything condescending about what pst said.

I also think that threads where the top players are making fun of the plays their opponents are making comes off pretty poorly. It makes them/us look elitist and I don't think that's what is intended.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2015, 02:06:05 pm »
+3

I haven't used the new client much but the main problem seems to be that they have taken the existing interface and are fixing problems incrementally, rather than designing a better interface that intrinsically solves the problems. It will be worse from a maintenance point of view as well and they will pay the costs later. I don't know if it is true that they outsourced the coding to another company but if they did it seems a mistake not to have their own designer in charge of the UI with clear ideas for usability. As an example - I find myself trying to remember the cards as I draw them since I'll be unable to read their names later once the hand gets large - that's a problem created by people who don't actually understand playing the game.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 02:08:06 pm by DG »
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popsofctown

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2015, 02:06:51 pm »
+1

in the comments (and in other threads) it is seen that this is about good players who think it is beneath them to have to play with beginners, and there have been several examples of exactly how stupid moves their opponents have made. I feel more for the beginners who have had to play against condescending experts

The only thing condescending here is this text of yours. Not liking to play against poor players has nothing to do with thinking it's "beneath us" or some such nonsense, it's just not much fun for anyone if there is a big skill gap in every single game you play.

I'm gonna disagree with SCSN here (big shock, I know). I don't see anything condescending about what pst said.

I also think that threads where the top players are making fun of the plays their opponents are making comes off pretty poorly. It makes them/us look elitist and I don't think that's what is intended.

I think you're really misreading our intent when we make threads like that.  The issue isn't that the opponent bought a turn 1 Spy.  It's not trivially super obvious why turn 1 Spy is bad for a player who is new to Dominion.  The butt of the joke is the matchmaking that put a iso 25+ player into the same game as that when they checked "compatible rating".

If we were trying to shame people we would quote the username of the player involved.
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AdamH

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2015, 02:09:22 pm »
0

in the comments (and in other threads) it is seen that this is about good players who think it is beneath them to have to play with beginners, and there have been several examples of exactly how stupid moves their opponents have made. I feel more for the beginners who have had to play against condescending experts

The only thing condescending here is this text of yours. Not liking to play against poor players has nothing to do with thinking it's "beneath us" or some such nonsense, it's just not much fun for anyone if there is a big skill gap in every single game you play.

I'm gonna disagree with SCSN here (big shock, I know). I don't see anything condescending about what pst said.

I also think that threads where the top players are making fun of the plays their opponents are making comes off pretty poorly. It makes them/us look elitist and I don't think that's what is intended.

I think you're really misreading our intent when we make threads like that.  The issue isn't that the opponent bought a turn 1 Spy.  It's not trivially super obvious why turn 1 Spy is bad for a player who is new to Dominion.  The butt of the joke is the matchmaking that put a iso 25+ player into the same game as that when they checked "compatible rating".

If we were trying to shame people we would quote the username of the player involved.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding the intent at all. I think many people are unaware of how it can come across, which was the whole point of my post.
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popsofctown

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2015, 02:10:56 pm »
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Oooh
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2015, 03:27:22 pm »
0

players like Ela and Hugo have pretty much always had pro players watching their streams
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