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Author Topic: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)  (Read 35352 times)

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markusin

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2015, 12:51:55 pm »
0

I think a much more constructive approach is to point out that a good team could be Level 0 Iso players and code a great Dominion game, just by understanding player feedback and being good at their jobs. Obviously it's great if the designers love and are skilled at the game, but I honestly don't think that's necessary. Being a good programmer is the skill required to code a good Dominion game.

Every flaw feels like negligent disregard instead of honest failures.  The proportion of necessary features of design choices granted from the getgo makes it feel like the desire for a reasonable Dominion client must be foreign, alien, and bizarre to those tasked with providing one, and you feel like you have to explain yourself as a strange alien race, for the human developers certainly can't understand why we eat Helium sandwiches or why a preference on whether memorization is a core game mechanic or not is a big deal.
There's a phase of software development that was discussed in my college courses called "elicitation", where you talk with the client a lot, and find out things he expects from the experience that he didn't think he would have to tell you he expects from the experience.  It's important for going beyond the base requirements you first get.

If they spent the right kind of time and effort in that phase getting all the details about what an experience playing online dominion should be like and actually taking it to heart, I agree it would be interchangeable with actually playing the game themselves.  It would be the same stuff, second hand instead of firsthand.  It doesn't seem they really went that route either though

Iso still has this kind of drag-and-drop-then-confirm interface for Innovation. It works well enough.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2015, 01:04:55 pm »
0

I think you quoted the wrong post, markusin. 

I can't remember any use of drag and drop in Innovation, actually.  What card causes it?  Returning multiple cards happens one at a time instead of drag and drop, but it kinda has to so that the game can handle "Homer" correctly.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2015, 05:14:48 pm »
+1

Besides all the other stuff, it seems like the program is still greedy regarding system ressources. On my new mid class notebook (new core i5, 8GB RAM) while streaming, my OBS told me that the CPU would be at 100%. And although I could still play and apparently the stream was working, I don't think that should be neccessary for this kind of game...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 05:35:21 pm by assemble_me »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2015, 02:50:15 am »
0

God, it is f'ing awful when you play a lot of cards, especially with scheme. You really can't see what's on the board. :( :(

And, many of the opponents play really slow. :( :(
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 02:51:55 am by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2015, 04:10:08 am »
0

I hadn't tried the MF client in ages so I gave it a try! I only played one game but it didn't use point counter even though I said I'd prefer it to be on. So I guess that is my vote then since otherwise it worked ok.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2015, 09:06:50 am »
+1

God, it is f'ing awful when you play a lot of cards, especially with scheme. You really can't see what's on the board. :( :(

And, many of the opponents play really slow. :( :(

So here's a real thing, and not just related to Scheme.  If I click-and-hold on a card to do something (select it to play or for some other purpose), I should be able to return the card to its original place without it being selected (from on-play board like Scheme or from your hand).  This is necessary because, (1) you may not be able to see the card (Scheme, big hand, etc.) so you need to click it to check what it is, (2) you might change your mind or suddenly realize you didn't want to do that, (3) you might have clicked the wrong thing by mistake.

Currently, if the card moved a small amount away from its original position, it gets selected, so there's a really small "move it back" area that is easy to miss.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2015, 09:53:09 am »
0

I don't think I can really pick one thing. I don't play online Dominion; I haven't much since the Iso days. But the problems I had with Goko that made me not play it are all still around from what I've seen in the new one, along with some new ones:

1. Dragging. There's no excuse for having dragging cards around be a way to say where you want them to go.

2. Screen re-sizing and resolution stuff. Ok so we had this discussion before; some people like full-screen. Well my play style, and general computer usage style, doesn't work with what they offer. I want to be able to drag the corner of my window to change the size of the window, like you can with pretty much every other window that runs under Windows! I don't want to go to the settings and pick a specific size that I'm then stuck using until I'm not in a game.

3. Reconnecting. Even a good program would crash sometimes. There's no reason whatsoever for any server-based implementation of a game to not automatically reconnect you if your computer reboots or your app crashes. Obviously with some sort of timeout. Ok, so my Temporum client doesn't have anything like this. Because it's 100% client-side. But the server-side version that I was working on with someone else? It reconnected you. Without any extra effort in making it do so; it just worked.

4. General slowness. This applies to the speed to start a game, play a game, etc. In Iso you could find, start, and finish a 2 player game extremely quickly. On a powerful board with a strong engine, it could be less than 5 minutes. On the new version, it just takes way too long to play a single game. This is partly due to the matchmaking system, partly due to load times, partly due to animations and such.

I'm sure there's more, but those are the big ones for me.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2015, 09:55:59 am »
+1

God, it is f'ing awful when you play a lot of cards, especially with scheme. You really can't see what's on the board. :( :(

And, many of the opponents play really slow. :( :(

So here's a real thing, and not just related to Scheme.  If I click-and-hold on a card to do something (select it to play or for some other purpose), I should be able to return the card to its original place without it being selected (from on-play board like Scheme or from your hand).  This is necessary because, (1) you may not be able to see the card (Scheme, big hand, etc.) so you need to click it to check what it is, (2) you might change your mind or suddenly realize you didn't want to do that, (3) you might have clicked the wrong thing by mistake.

Currently, if the card moved a small amount away from its original position, it gets selected, so there's a really small "move it back" area that is easy to miss.

Actually I should probably just report this Scheme/selection issue on their forums.  It's not really "the main problem" but rather just something I noticed that could be improved.
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thespaceinvader

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2015, 10:56:35 am »
+2

4. General slowness. This applies to the speed to start a game, play a game, etc. In Iso you could find, start, and finish a 2 player game extremely quickly. On a powerful board with a strong engine, it could be less than 5 minutes. On the new version, it just takes way too long to play a single game. This is partly due to the matchmaking system, partly due to load times, partly due to animations and such.

I'm sure there's more, but those are the big ones for me.
This was probably my most major bone of contention in the early days.  Even if I could find a match quickly, it might take ten or twenty minutes to play through even a simple engine game.  I found it far, far too slow, to the point where half a dozen other similar games offered a more engaging experience, albeit of not such a good game.  From watching streams and dropping in for the odd guest game, this hasn't improved enough to make it worth my time.

The other major thing that's missing is security concerns.  I've seen enough that worries me both from Goko and from FunSockets and from Making Fun in respect to security that I don't really trust them with a name and password, let alone any form of payment details.  That may be irrational and paranoid, but it's a fairly major player in my decisionmaking.

The whol idea that they had to maintain feature parity with Goko was also a MAJOR turnoff when the programmers changed.  Goko's features were pretty much the antithesis of what I wanted out of an online version of Dominion, and it was just painful to watch people gamely struggling to replicate such IMO awful design.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2015, 12:24:27 pm »
+1

Having had the chance to play on Isotropic again after playing on Goko, I have to say that it took me longer to get through a game on Iso. This is mostly because I had to go through the logs to figure out what my opponent's turn looked like, since the counters weren't updated. Other than that, yeah if I was playing solitaire games by myself without thinking too much then I could get it done quicker, yes.

But the main reason my games in particular have gotten longer is because one of the things that's helped me get better at Dominion is knowing when to stop and think about how you can play your turns better, or buy the right cards. My clicks per second has a higher peak on a minimal interface, but other than that, I don't think the design of the client is to be blamed for "general slowness."

Lag is something totally different, being held up by animations is yet another thing, but those aren't "general slowness". It's very easy to just assume that RAWR THIS IS TOO SLOW FOR ME BLAME GOKO, but I really don't think that's constructive or even correct.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2015, 12:31:28 pm »
0

Yeah, I don't really see slowness as an issue anymore on Making Fun's version. With a fast opponent, we can easily knock out a game in 5 to 10 minutes, and that's with my animation speed slider in the middle. Sometimes I'll be up against a really slow opponent, but that's always a risk and I really don't mind it. For those that do mind it, hopefully it'll be less of an issue once ratings stabilize and/or the matchmaking gets fixed.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2015, 12:36:48 pm »
0

I get lag in between villages sometimes, seems to be latency.
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Witherweaver

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2015, 12:38:30 pm »
+1

Yeah, I don't really see slowness as an issue anymore on Making Fun's version. With a fast opponent, we can easily knock out a game in 5 to 10 minutes, and that's with my animation speed slider in the middle. Sometimes I'll be up against a really slow opponent, but that's always a risk and I really don't mind it. For those that do mind it, hopefully it'll be less of an issue once ratings stabilize and/or the matchmaking gets fixed.

It's still ridiculously slow to watch a Bot resolve Hunting Party at maximal speed.  I really don't need to see all the revealed cards every time.

Edit: Or Golem.  I mean, I just don't want to see my opponents deck flop out in front of me *every* turn.

Also, selecting cards for Scheme.  I just don't need to see those.  Many times I can't do anything strategically about it, and when I need to, that's why there is a log.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 12:39:36 pm by Witherweaver »
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LastFootnote

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2015, 12:39:48 pm »
0

Yeah, I don't really see slowness as an issue anymore on Making Fun's version. With a fast opponent, we can easily knock out a game in 5 to 10 minutes, and that's with my animation speed slider in the middle. Sometimes I'll be up against a really slow opponent, but that's always a risk and I really don't mind it. For those that do mind it, hopefully it'll be less of an issue once ratings stabilize and/or the matchmaking gets fixed.

It's still ridiculously slow to watch a Bot resolve Hunting Party at maximal speed.  I really don't need to see all the revealed cards every time.

It's no worse than Goko, though. Like, it used to be awful, but now it's not awful? That's how I see it anyway.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2015, 12:40:49 pm »
0

It's worse than Goko because it's.. choppier?  Laggier?  I mean, it was bad on Goko, and it's bad, and a little bit worse on maximum speed, here.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2015, 12:41:23 pm »
0

It's worse than Goko because it's.. choppier?  Laggier?  I mean, it was bad on Goko, and it's bad, and a little bit worse on maximum speed, here.

I guess I can't tell the difference on medium speed. I'm willing to believe it's worse on the fastest setting.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2015, 01:05:58 pm »
+2

It's still ridiculously slow to watch a Bot resolve Hunting Party at maximal speed.  I really don't need to see all the revealed cards every time.

Edit: Or Golem.  I mean, I just don't want to see my opponents deck flop out in front of me *every* turn.

I'm going to stream now to demonstrate the speed patch and how gameplay looks like without those silly reveal animations.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2015, 01:33:34 pm »
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I think you quoted the wrong post, markusin. 

I can't remember any use of drag and drop in Innovation, actually.  What card causes it?  Returning multiple cards happens one at a time instead of drag and drop, but it kinda has to so that the game can handle "Homer" correctly.

Oh jeez uh yeah I must have quoted the wrong post. It must have been Iso Dominion that had the drag-and-drop interface for some cards then.
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Witherweaver

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2015, 01:44:14 pm »
0

It's still ridiculously slow to watch a Bot resolve Hunting Party at maximal speed.  I really don't need to see all the revealed cards every time.

Edit: Or Golem.  I mean, I just don't want to see my opponents deck flop out in front of me *every* turn.

I'm going to stream now to demonstrate the speed patch and how gameplay looks like without those silly reveal animations.

It looks much, much better. 
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2015, 04:53:58 am »
0

I think you quoted the wrong post, markusin. 

I can't remember any use of drag and drop in Innovation, actually.  What card causes it?  Returning multiple cards happens one at a time instead of drag and drop, but it kinda has to so that the game can handle "Homer" correctly.

Oh jeez uh yeah I must have quoted the wrong post. It must have been Iso Dominion that had the drag-and-drop interface for some cards then.

Iso had drag-and-drop for Stash. I think that's all. You could play Iso on mobile devices, and the fact that the devices didn't support drag-and-drop on the Web was not too big an impediment.

I think when choosing an order of cards on your deck, you would click on the cards, it would give them numbers in order, and you'd confirm. Something like that could be done in a more graphical way: have the cards move into a staging area -- ideally one where the top and not-so-top of your deck are visually clear -- then confirm.

Drag and drop should also be available because people will intuitively do that, and because it would be the convenient way to rearrange the order before confirming. But choosing an order by clicking should be the priority.

(Why am I not addressing this to Making Fun? Because it wouldn't help anything and I'm probably not playing Making Fun for a good long time. This is more of a theoretical design.)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 04:55:09 am by rspeer »
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2015, 07:28:29 am »
0

Yeah, I don't really see slowness as an issue anymore on Making Fun's version. With a fast opponent, we can easily knock out a game in 5 to 10 minutes, and that's with my animation speed slider in the middle. Sometimes I'll be up against a really slow opponent, but that's always a risk and I really don't mind it. For those that do mind it, hopefully it'll be less of an issue once ratings stabilize and/or the matchmaking gets fixed.

It's still ridiculously slow to watch a Bot resolve Hunting Party at maximal speed.  I really don't need to see all the revealed cards every time.

Edit: Or Golem.  I mean, I just don't want to see my opponents deck flop out in front of me *every* turn.

Also, selecting cards for Scheme.  I just don't need to see those.  Many times I can't do anything strategically about it, and when I need to, that's why there is a log.

Can you be more specific about what you don't like about this animation? What version of the software are you using? What animation setting? I suppose a video is too much to ask?
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2015, 09:03:04 am »
+2

Yeah, I don't really see slowness as an issue anymore on Making Fun's version. With a fast opponent, we can easily knock out a game in 5 to 10 minutes, and that's with my animation speed slider in the middle. Sometimes I'll be up against a really slow opponent, but that's always a risk and I really don't mind it. For those that do mind it, hopefully it'll be less of an issue once ratings stabilize and/or the matchmaking gets fixed.

It's still ridiculously slow to watch a Bot resolve Hunting Party at maximal speed.  I really don't need to see all the revealed cards every time.

Edit: Or Golem.  I mean, I just don't want to see my opponents deck flop out in front of me *every* turn.

Also, selecting cards for Scheme.  I just don't need to see those.  Many times I can't do anything strategically about it, and when I need to, that's why there is a log.

Can you be more specific about what you don't like about this animation? What version of the software are you using? What animation setting? I suppose a video is too much to ask?

I don't like that I see the cards my opponent reveals with Hunting Party, Golem, etc., or chooses with, e.g., Scheme.  They pop up in the "reveal" space and it pauses the entire game while I see a bunch of (in many cases, not useful) information.  I should be able to request this information if I want it, not have to sit through the process.

This is at the highest animation speed with minimal visual effects. 

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2015, 09:05:15 am »
0

Yeah, I don't really see slowness as an issue anymore on Making Fun's version. With a fast opponent, we can easily knock out a game in 5 to 10 minutes, and that's with my animation speed slider in the middle. Sometimes I'll be up against a really slow opponent, but that's always a risk and I really don't mind it. For those that do mind it, hopefully it'll be less of an issue once ratings stabilize and/or the matchmaking gets fixed.

It's still ridiculously slow to watch a Bot resolve Hunting Party at maximal speed.  I really don't need to see all the revealed cards every time.

Edit: Or Golem.  I mean, I just don't want to see my opponents deck flop out in front of me *every* turn.

Also, selecting cards for Scheme.  I just don't need to see those.  Many times I can't do anything strategically about it, and when I need to, that's why there is a log.

Can you be more specific about what you don't like about this animation? What version of the software are you using? What animation setting? I suppose a video is too much to ask?

I don't like that I see the cards my opponent reveals with Hunting Party, Golem, etc., or chooses with, e.g., Scheme.  They pop up in the "reveal" space and it pauses the entire game while I see a bunch of (in many cases, not useful) information.  I should be able to request this information if I want it, not have to sit through the process.

This is at the highest animation speed with minimal visual effects.

See, I get that these reveals slow down gameplay, but to me, they're relevant information.  I want to know what cards HP and Golem skipped, and I'd prefer to see it fly in front of my face, rather than have to glance over at the log.
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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2015, 09:06:58 am »
0

Yeah, I don't really see slowness as an issue anymore on Making Fun's version. With a fast opponent, we can easily knock out a game in 5 to 10 minutes, and that's with my animation speed slider in the middle. Sometimes I'll be up against a really slow opponent, but that's always a risk and I really don't mind it. For those that do mind it, hopefully it'll be less of an issue once ratings stabilize and/or the matchmaking gets fixed.

It's still ridiculously slow to watch a Bot resolve Hunting Party at maximal speed.  I really don't need to see all the revealed cards every time.

Edit: Or Golem.  I mean, I just don't want to see my opponents deck flop out in front of me *every* turn.

Also, selecting cards for Scheme.  I just don't need to see those.  Many times I can't do anything strategically about it, and when I need to, that's why there is a log.

Can you be more specific about what you don't like about this animation? What version of the software are you using? What animation setting? I suppose a video is too much to ask?

I don't like that I see the cards my opponent reveals with Hunting Party, Golem, etc., or chooses with, e.g., Scheme.  They pop up in the "reveal" space and it pauses the entire game while I see a bunch of (in many cases, not useful) information.  I should be able to request this information if I want it, not have to sit through the process.

This is at the highest animation speed with minimal visual effects.

See, I get that these reveals slow down gameplay, but to me, they're relevant information.  I want to know what cards HP and Golem skipped, and I'd prefer to see it fly in front of my face, rather than have to glance over at the log.

Well, I'd say make it optional.  I agree that sometimes you want to know, definitely.  But I think many cases you can't actually do much with this information.    Maybe you always want to know anyway, so make it a setting.

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Re: What is the main problem with Playdominion now? (v2.0.43)
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2015, 09:09:57 am »
+1

The main problem for me is that I can't get the damn thing to run. I downloaded the new client yesterday and it won't stop segfaulting when starting up. Has anyone been able to get it running on Linux?
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