Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.  (Read 3873 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5035
  • Respect: +2540
    • View Profile
Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« on: October 13, 2015, 04:19:34 pm »
+1

They announced today that Warsong Commander's text has now changed to "Your charge minions have +1 attack".

Will be implemented in an upcoming patch.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5035
  • Respect: +2540
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2015, 04:34:53 pm »
0

I have rather strong opinions about the history of Futureproof-Failure Commander and whether OTK should be nerfed or not and all that rot, but I don't want to talk about that right now, not because it's not a big deal but because it seems more forgiveable and understandable.


What I'm ticked off about though, is the new practice of giving cards "The Buzzard Treatment". I don't understand it.  It makes some sense to not want a little egg on your face for the next problem card to have the same name as the last problem card.  I get that.  I understand playing it safe and making the new card overcosted by 0.4 mana, to be super, super safe.  But Buzzard and Warsong are, conservatively, overcosted by about 1.8 and 1.0 mana respectively, which is just ridiculous.  It's harmful because both these cards are part of the new player experience, and because Unstable Portal, Arena, Recombobulator, etc, make even unplayable cards relevant in that they make games more interesting when they are not too massively overcosted.

Does Blizzard not have any faith in themselves at all in their ability to make a card and be for sure it will not break the game?  If they feel they can't make Warsong Commander a 2/4 with "Your charge minions have +1 Attack" and have faith and believe in themselves that they will not break their game in doing that, like, maybe they should go home, because if they can't pull that off, surely they can't release sets with dozens of cards in them without breaking their game. 


The motif here is that Blizzard is really, really awful about damaging their own game, if necessary, to save face, preserve their image, and try to look like a low-fallibility developer.  They are so horrified of embarassment in replacement Warsong Commander being too strong that they are going to make it this awful.  The Buzzard nerf was the same way, they were horrified of not nerfing it enough and feeling embarassed.  No, it wasn't forward compatibility, there's no way 4 mana 3/2 Buzzard isn't one of the most forward compatible cards in the game.

Blizzard does similar garbage in regard to bugs and undesirable game mechanics.  The nips and tucks regarding Kripp's exploit of Nozdormu+Gadgetzan Jouster added a freeze to the game and didn't correct any underlying problems.  They are avoiding admitting that Nozdormu should have died in beta because it is not feasible for them to support this card, and it's a card that just never fit into their design for Hearthstone.  They similarly call unintuitive rules interactions "working as intended" to try to make themselves look good, like the Mistcaller + Deathlord bullsh$%. 

I've even seen Ben Brode interviewed about fu#$ing POISON BLADE asked about how the card is kinda weak, and he says, "I THINK YOU GUYS DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS EFFECT CAN BE REALLY GOOD, BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T IN ALPHA". Like.  If you ever get a chance to say you make a mistake, and it's like, an innocuous mistake that is really not that embarassing it's not like Poison Blade is strictly worse than another weapon side-by-side, and it's like, this situation where it's very very very clear you made a mistake so it's not a big deal to admit it, and like, maybe if you admit you make mistakes, people will think you're human, and maybe even like you.  BUT NO.  He refuses to admit that he is anything but a perfect, godlike game designer.  Hearthstone is perfect.  It will never be imperfect. 

Ok I should stop
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 04:37:49 pm by popsofctown »
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

chairs

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 134
  • Why don't you have a seat over there...
  • Respect: +16
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2015, 05:26:04 pm »
0

I don't know what old Warsong Commander looks like.

I do know Starving Buzzard is basically worthless at 5 mana.

Twistedarcher

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 487
  • Respect: +172
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2015, 05:29:12 pm »
0

I don't know what old Warsong Commander looks like.

I do know Starving Buzzard is basically worthless at 5 mana.

Warsong Commander used to be 2/3 for 3, Whenever you summon a minion with 3 or less attack give it charge. It was used in the most powerful ladder/tournament deck, patron warrior, in conjunction with Grim Patron and Frothing Berserker, where it could have one turn kills for 45+ damage. It definitely deserved a nerf, since there was little you could do about it in a lot of cases, but this nerf seems pretty extreme -- the deck seems unplayable after this nerf.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5035
  • Respect: +2540
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2015, 05:32:17 pm »
+1

I don't mind a deck becoming unplayable due to a nerf.  It's not strange for a deck to become unplayable because a new card is released. 
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

Haddock

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
  • Shuffle iT Username: Haddock
  • Not Doc Cod
  • Respect: +544
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2015, 05:56:43 pm »
+1

Anyone here remember old-old warsong? Same card, but "your minions have charge". Ridiculous.  Nerfed prerelease.
Logged
The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5035
  • Respect: +2540
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2015, 06:08:01 pm »
0

I do.  It really wasn't that much more ridiculous than 3 attack restricted warsong, because 3 attack or less isn't an infallible way of checking whether giving something Charge is powerful or not.  Grim Patron, Frothing Beserker, and Flesh Eating Ghoul all evade the spirit of the ill-conceived restriction.


I've played more games with the Warsong Commander - Molten - Molten - Panda - Panda deck than probably anyone else here and I can easily say it was far less powerful in its own meta than Patron Warrior because playing around Molten giant is a thing that you can do, and playing around Thaurissan isn't.  And Molten Giant was the only card that you wanted to use with Warsong Commander, Warsong Commander-> Venture Co Mercenary is not a thing.  The synergy between Warsong + Cheap minions is way more important than the synergy between Warsong + high attack stat printed on the card.

I would even wager money that Molten Warsong gets destroyed by Patron, and gets destroyed by Secradin, Mechmage, and modern Force Roar Druid.  You can test it for yourself, if you like, since it's an OTK, just play the Warsong, Pandas, and Molten Giants on the kill turn and count up whether you would have won.  If you can actually manipulate the fatigue timer enough to make that happen with today's cards - which I doubt.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2629
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2770
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2015, 06:46:23 pm »
0

What a joke.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3268
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +1877
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2015, 07:09:03 pm »
0

So I'm thinking Blizzard was taking their sweet time needing from Patron Warrior to figure out how to nerf the deck in just the perfect way to not make it so potentially strong but not unplayable. Now 6 months later, they decide to make it completely unplayable. And Grim Patron itself is in the gutter too now.

The devs talk about not wanting to devalue people's collections with constant nerfs. And now they've done just that.

I think this change is meant to appease all the Grim Patron Warrior haters by letting them mock the new Warsong all they want.

Like, this new Warsong only makes sense if there actually is a old-Warsong-style card giving charge to stuff. Like new Warsong + Wolfrider is worse than 2x Wolfrider in terms of damage output, as well as Wolfrider + Bluegill. Pathetic.
Logged

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2717
  • Respect: +1457
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2015, 08:07:57 pm »
0

I don't philosophically care about one card being nerfed into oblivion (although if they're going to do that, I'd prefer that they just remove the card), but for me it doesn't accomplish the goal of making ranked fun. Both Miracle-in-its-day and Patron-now are fun decks to play, and both will have been removed from the game via nerfs after this patch goes through. What doesn't seem to get nerfed much are boring midrange decks.
Logged

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1806
  • Shuffle iT Username: Drab Emordnilap
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1815
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2015, 08:14:26 pm »
+1

So a while back, I applied for a job with Blizzard as a designer to work on Hearthstone. I didn't get the job, obviously. Looks like someone has it all taken care of.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3268
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +1877
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2015, 11:44:31 pm »
+2

I'd say this nerf is worse than the Starving Buzzard nerf because the original purpose of the card was removes and replaced with a lamewad worse-than-Raid-Leader effect. At least Buzzard has some utility if you get it off Ram Wrangler or a late game Webspinner.
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1915
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2301
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2015, 04:03:52 am »
0

I'd say this nerf is worse than the Starving Buzzard nerf because the original purpose of the card was removes and replaced with a lamewad worse-than-Raid-Leader effect. At least Buzzard has some utility if you get it off Ram Wrangler or a late game Webspinner.

Buzzard was run in the recent American championships.  I can't imagine it would work on ladder, but perhaps it was a good call for the slower tournament meta: they managed to get it off with a Highmane pop and and Unleash.
Logged

Haddock

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
  • Shuffle iT Username: Haddock
  • Not Doc Cod
  • Respect: +544
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2015, 05:03:03 am »
0


I was really thinking of how it would improve patron.  A patron deck with charging giants etc. as well as the usual stuff might well have been even more robust than standard patron.
Logged
The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

ashersky

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2319
  • 2013/2014/2015 Mafia Mod of the Year
  • Respect: +1500
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2015, 07:46:40 am »
0

Can anyone conceive of a deck that would use the new Warsong at all?

It's Warrior-only, so you are looking at...Face Warrior, maybe?  But then, at 3 mana it's worse than a lot of cards you'd run there anyway.  You probably get more value out of a Bash.
Logged
f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

Town: 46 Games, 23 Wins
Scum: 22 Games, 13 Wins
11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7832
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Prepare to be boarded!
  • Respect: +8865
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 08:57:16 am »
0

Replace Spielberg/Lucas with Blizzard, and Indiana Jones with Warrior.

Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5035
  • Respect: +2540
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 11:56:25 am »
0


I was really thinking of how it would improve patron.  A patron deck with charging giants etc. as well as the usual stuff might well have been even more robust than standard patron.
Possibly, but not unambiguously so.  Everytime you put in more wincon, you have to cut either survivability or draw power, both of which improve your chance of drawing Warsong Commander, a card that you need to enter your hand at some point (except for the games where you can do the noncharging patrons win method, mainly Druid).

Patron Warrior already has Raging Worgen available to it, and is choosing not to cut draw power or survivability for it.  It does 8 damage too, if a Flesheating Ghoul or Death's Bite explodes, which is like, all the time, and 12 damage off an Inner Rage.  The thing that made Molten Giant sooo much better than Raging Worgen is Young Brewmaster, and there's NO way Patron Warrior has room for Brewmasters AND Giants, the list is very very tight.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5035
  • Respect: +2540
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2015, 11:57:27 am »
0

I would have greatly preferred that they just remove the card.

Making it a vanilla 3/4 or 4/3 would have even been better.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

chairs

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 134
  • Why don't you have a seat over there...
  • Respect: +16
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2015, 12:37:39 pm »
0

It's just... so... bad.

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3268
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +1877
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2015, 12:44:27 pm »
0

I would have greatly preferred that they just remove the card.

Making it a vanilla 3/4 or 4/3 would have even been better.
In a sense, they did. But it's soulbound, so makes sense to just replace it with a totally different card at the same time.

Now if the card they replaced it with was actually any good...

Like they could have made the new Warsong into anything, but they chose to make it suck just because they don't want the card associated with anything good, even though it's essentially a different card now.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 12:46:38 pm by markusin »
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5035
  • Respect: +2540
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2015, 12:57:10 pm »
+4

It could be 2/4, 3/3, 3/4, 4/3, give +2 attack to charge minions, or cost 2 mana instead, or have charge itself, safely.

The first charge minion you play each turn costs 1 less.

Draw a minion with charge from your deck, 2/2.

Whenever you summon a minion with Charge, equip a Heavy Axe

The first minion you play each turn gains Charge (is as forward compatible as the Charge spell.)

While this minion is in play, you draw cards from your deck from among those that have Charge, if able.

Minions with Charge can't be frozen.

Whenever you play a minion with charge, gain +1/+1 (an awful questing adventurer and still better than this awful card)

Ok, I'll stop.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3268
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +1877
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2015, 01:06:28 pm »
0

It could be 2/4, 3/3, 3/4, 4/3, give +2 attack to charge minions, or cost 2 mana instead, or have charge itself, safely.

The first charge minion you play each turn costs 1 less.

Draw a minion with charge from your deck, 2/2.

Whenever you summon a minion with Charge, equip a Heavy Axe

The first minion you play each turn gains Charge (is as forward compatible as the Charge spell.)

While this minion is in play, you draw cards from your deck from among those that have Charge, if able.

Minions with Charge can't be frozen.

Whenever you play a minion with charge, gain +1/+1 (an awful questing adventurer and still better than this awful card)

Ok, I'll stop.
You forgot "give your charge minion attack equal to your weapon's attack". Makes it something comparable to Oil Rogue but without Blade Flurry.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5035
  • Respect: +2540
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2015, 01:10:13 pm »
0

It could be 2/4, 3/3, 3/4, 4/3, give +2 attack to charge minions, or cost 2 mana instead, or have charge itself, safely.

The first charge minion you play each turn costs 1 less.

Draw a minion with charge from your deck, 2/2.

Whenever you summon a minion with Charge, equip a Heavy Axe

The first minion you play each turn gains Charge (is as forward compatible as the Charge spell.)

While this minion is in play, you draw cards from your deck from among those that have Charge, if able.

Minions with Charge can't be frozen.

Whenever you play a minion with charge, gain +1/+1 (an awful questing adventurer and still better than this awful card)

Ok, I'll stop.
You forgot "give your charge minion attack equal to your weapon's attack". Makes it something comparable to Oil Rogue but without Blade Flurry.
Give all charge minions attack equal to your weapons attack?
Turn 10 Warsong -boar-boar-deckhand-deckhand-arcane golem = 52 damage with Gorehowl?  I can't be insistent that that's on the safe side or consistent with the design philosophy they are trying to profess.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

Haddock

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
  • Shuffle iT Username: Haddock
  • Not Doc Cod
  • Respect: +544
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2015, 06:17:57 pm »
0


Possibly, but not unambiguously so.  Everytime you put in more wincon, you have to cut either survivability or draw power, both of which improve your chance of drawing Warsong Commander, a card that you need to enter your hand at some point (except for the games where you can do the noncharging patrons win method, mainly Druid).

Patron Warrior already has Raging Worgen available to it, and is choosing not to cut draw power or survivability for it.  It does 8 damage too, if a Flesheating Ghoul or Death's Bite explodes, which is like, all the time, and 12 damage off an Inner Rage.  The thing that made Molten Giant sooo much better than Raging Worgen is Young Brewmaster, and there's NO way Patron Warrior has room for Brewmasters AND Giants, the list is very very tight.
Hmm.  I just feel like Molten Giant on its own (assuming you cut some Whirlwind effects) is just a nice solid drop that doesn't rely on combo, which seems to solidify the whole archetype somewhat.  Not that I really know, I've never got past rank 3 or so with patron, it's not by any means my strongest deck.
Logged
The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (0-1, 0%): x - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - None.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

Twistedarcher

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 487
  • Respect: +172
    • View Profile
Re: Warsong Commander got the Starving Buzzard treatment.
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2015, 07:15:22 pm »
0

I would have greatly preferred that they just remove the card.

Making it a vanilla 3/4 or 4/3 would have even been better.

What's the practical difference between a card you never ever play and a card that doesn't exist?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.085 seconds with 20 queries.