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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition  (Read 52416 times)

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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2015, 05:46:13 am »
0

Okay, now you are having problems too, that's weird. I will look into it. Did you rerank Events by clicking on individual cards on the right? As said before that may cause problems, but that's by design.

But the dependencies are necessary. If you rate Event A>B in the $3 list for example and then you do it vice versa in the Events list, then there is inconsistency. Also you don't have to vote the $3 Events in relation to each other after you voted them in the $3 list. That makes it easier for you.

assemble_me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2015, 06:38:02 am »
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Okay, now you are having problems too, that's weird. I will look into it. Did you rerank Events by clicking on individual cards on the right? As said before that may cause problems, but that's by design.

But the dependencies are necessary. If you rate Event A>B in the $3 list for example and then you do it vice versa in the Events list, then there is inconsistency. Also you don't have to vote the $3 Events in relation to each other after you voted them in the $3 list. That makes it easier for you.

I can't tell exactly how I destroyed things. I usually work through the card duels, then I take a look at the list and check if it's satisfying. For the most part the results are fine but then I often think I have to tweak the order of one or two cards and then I go to that list drag/drop mode.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 06:39:51 am by assemble_me »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2015, 07:33:41 am »
0

I debugged and tested the application and I found an error in the drag/drop code if a card is on multiple lists, e.g. Events.
So please, just don't use the drag/drop function on the Events list for now. I'll fix it as fast as I can.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2015, 07:40:45 am »
+1

I'm done with everything but the cumulative list! The duel system worked fine for me. I think I got more accurate rankings (for my own taste) than when I tried it manually a couple of weeks ago.

Some of my more controversial choices:

$2-: Chapel at #2
$3: Ferry at #5, Amulet at #6, Workshop at #27, Caravan Guard at #42
$4: Herald at #1, Throne Room at #6, Sea Hag at #14, Young Witch at #26, Miser at #31, Feast at #45, Rats at #65
$5: Cultist at #1, Haunted Woods at #3, Minion at #4, Count at #6, Rebuild at #10, Margrave at #12, Swamp Hag at #40, Counting House at #63, Council Room at #76
$6+: Forge at #7
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2015, 07:49:07 am »
+1

I'm done with everything but the cumulative list! The duel system worked fine for me. I think I got more accurate rankings (for my own taste) than when I tried it manually a couple of weeks ago.

Some of my more controversial choices:

$2-: Chapel at #2
$3: Ferry at #5, Amulet at #6, Workshop at #27, Caravan Guard at #42
$4: Herald at #1, Throne Room at #6, Sea Hag at #14, Young Witch at #26, Miser at #31, Feast at #45, Rats at #65
$5: Cultist at #1, Haunted Woods at #3, Minion at #4, Count at #6, Rebuild at #10, Margrave at #12, Swamp Hag at #40, Counting House at #63, Council Room at #76
$6+: Forge at #7

What did you put on #1 at the two cost? also council room and herald seem quite mind boggling aswell, the others are not very controversial, in my opinion
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2015, 07:57:45 am »
0

I'm done with everything but the cumulative list! The duel system worked fine for me. I think I got more accurate rankings (for my own taste) than when I tried it manually a couple of weeks ago.

Some of my more controversial choices:

$2-: Chapel at #2
$3: Ferry at #5, Amulet at #6, Workshop at #27, Caravan Guard at #42
$4: Herald at #1, Throne Room at #6, Sea Hag at #14, Young Witch at #26, Miser at #31, Feast at #45, Rats at #65
$5: Cultist at #1, Haunted Woods at #3, Minion at #4, Count at #6, Rebuild at #10, Margrave at #12, Swamp Hag at #40, Counting House at #63, Council Room at #76
$6+: Forge at #7

What did you put on #1 at the two cost? also council room and herald seem quite mind boggling aswell, the others are not very controversial, in my opinion

Page is my #1. Champion just warps the game so much that Page had to go there, no matter how strong Chapel is and always has been.

Herald is basically +2 cards +2 actions most of the time when you have an action-heavy deck, and with today's engine-centered metagame you will often have one. That's crazy for $4. And even if you miss it's still a cantrip, so you can buy them in bulk and try again. Even better: when they cascade into each other it's like a Golem on steroids. So basically, like Cultist, they're awesome on their own but absolutely rape when you have a lot of them.

Council Room's penalty REALLY hurts. You just have to be so damn careful with them all the time it's just not funny anymore. Lost City is a way stronger card with a less bad penalty. Also it's terribly close to strictly inferior to Margrave. I'll probably never buy Council Room unless there's an engine with a discard attack at the end or if it's the only source of good draw AND the only source of +Buy.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2015, 08:25:26 am »
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Chapel has way more of an effect on the game than Champion, and I think people massively understate the opportunity cost of getting a Champion up and running. It takes five shuffles to get it going, and before then you either need villages, a deck clogged with terminals, or mostly money. On some boards it's absolutely dominating, but it's not nearly as universally useful as Chapel. It's a card that looks crazy on paper but is a lot more balanced in reality. I suspect in the 2016 lists, Page will just barely make the top 5 $2's.

Now, if the argument was how Soldier makes upgrading to Champion as risky as winning a Tournament mirror, I'd give that more credence.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 08:27:06 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2015, 09:21:02 am »
+2

Don't get me wrong, I love herald, it's one of my favourite cards. I just don't think it deserves the first place.

Regarding CR, #76 sounds like last place or almost last place to me, meaning that there are quite a few very bad cards in front of it which I can't quite understand, considering how many bad card there are. I agree that both Governor and Lost City are stronger for the same penalty, but +4cards is still really strong and if it's the only draw, you probably lose ignoring it, which can not be said about other 5costs
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2015, 09:41:25 am »
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Sounds like most of the trouble is coming from skipping ranking cards - I ranked everything, and haven't seen any problems with my lists.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2015, 09:43:31 am »
0

I debugged and tested the application and I found an error in the drag/drop code if a card is on multiple lists, e.g. Events.
So please, just don't use the drag/drop function on the Events list for now. I'll fix it as fast as I can.

So, I think I fixed it as best I could in the short time frame.
But what I cannot change is the following example:

I rate the $3 list and put Bonfire above Expedition.
Then later I rate the Events list either in drag/drop mode or by clicking on the right on a specific card and put Expedition above Bonfire.
You then have to go back to the $3 list and vote a few times to adapt to the recent change.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2015, 11:09:13 am »
0

Regarding CR, #76 sounds like last place or almost last place to me, meaning that there are quite a few very bad cards in front of it which I can't quite understand, considering how many bad card there are. I agree that both Governor and Lost City are stronger for the same penalty, but +4cards is still really strong and if it's the only draw, you probably lose ignoring it, which can not be said about other 5costs

I disagree with the idea that there are many bad cards on the $5 card list. Most $5 cards are really strong and only a select few of them are relatively mediocre. I think Council Room is one of them. That doesn't mean it's weak; it's still stronger than most $4 cards, but at the $5 price point there are so many better cards.

(For the record, #76 is seventh worst. Meh, it may be just slightly too low, I don't know.)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2015, 11:27:34 am »
+1

my counterpoint re: council room - if there's any viable draw engine that requires it, both players will likely be drawing their whole deck every turn anyway.  governor was underrated a few years ago because people were scared of the penalty on its draw, but it turns out that most of the time it's worth it.

i mean sure, if there's another big terminal draw card alongside council room, i would mainly get those and like 1-2 council rooms for the buys if you need that. but it's still an important enough engine enabler that i can easily name ten $5s worse than it:

harvest
counting house
mine
stash
royal seal (sorry mic~)
cache
contraband
saboteur
mandarin
explorer (actually a bit underrated as engine payload with the likes of salvager/bishop/remodel-types, but eh)

this isn't even getting into perhaps more controversial cases like trading post or treasury, which i would also comfortably rank below council room. the $5s have their fair share of crappy cards, for sure.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2015, 11:39:07 am »
+1

Some of those are actually not that weak.

Counting House is one of the most underrated cards in the game imo. Sure, on some boards it's terrible, but on others it's absolutely amazing. Especially in slogs, combos and in Colony games, Counting House is a force to be reckoned with. Even in some engines with good sifters/discarders it can be pretty useful. I have never understood why it is so universally accepted as the worst $5 card.

Mine is also a somewhat underrated payload card that shines when there is a good engine, but no good Copper trashing. The most common example is the First Game engine, where it is definitely the star of the show.

The other cards are indeed some of the weaker $5's, I rated most of them below Council Room and some slightly above it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2015, 12:02:17 pm »
+1

You are entitled to your opinion Aleimon, although, I do think we should wait until after everyone has finished ranking before discussing what we voted.


However, Council Room is good not just because it draws, but it also provides +Buy. It accomplishes two goals that an engine needs. The extra card draw really is not that bad for what you get.

Also, Champion is good, but Chapel changes the game dramatically. It may very well be the most powerful card in Dominion. The Page line doesn't come close to the power of Chapel.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2015, 12:15:46 pm »
+3

You are entitled to your opinion Aleimon, although, I do think we should wait until after everyone has finished ranking before discussing what we voted.

I don't think we have to close this forum until everyone has finished ranking.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2015, 12:28:40 pm »
+1

Counting House is one of the most underrated cards in the game imo. Sure, on some boards it's terrible, but on others it's absolutely amazing. Especially in slogs, combos and in Colony games, Counting House is a force to be reckoned with. Even in some engines with good sifters/discarders it can be pretty useful. I have never understood why it is so universally accepted as the worst $5 card.

While technically true, "on some boards it's terrible, but on others it's absolutely amazing" is pretty misleading. A better way to put it would be something like "on almost every board it's terrible, but on the rest, it's absolutely amazing". The "engines with good sifters" is the main way the card is useful, and it doesn't sound like you're underestimating how often that happens either.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2015, 12:39:30 pm »
0

If I have a board with Worker's Village, Coppersmith, Vault, Counting House, no really strong cards otherwise, and maybe a couple more Villages, for sure I'm buying a Counting House.  But you need to line all that stuff up.  And there are usually Attacks and things that are more worth your time.

Counting House/Travelling Fair is a BEAST.  It is a legitimate combo.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2015, 12:43:48 pm »
+2

If I have a board with Worker's Village, Coppersmith, Vault, Counting House, no really strong cards otherwise, and maybe a couple more Villages, for sure I'm buying a Counting House.  But you need to line all that stuff up.  And there are usually Attacks and things that are more worth your time.

Counting House/Travelling Fair is a BEAST.  It is a legitimate combo.

I think trying to combo Counting House and Coppersmith is usually a losing proposition, even with Workers' Village. Better to just use Counting House.

The "engines with good sifters" is the main way [Counting House] is useful

I don't buy that for a minute.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2015, 12:53:28 pm »
+3

I think the only really good Counting House things are Mountebank + Colonies (or some similarly junky Colony game) or the Travelling Fair thing (which I have only solitaired, never tried against a competing strategy). The enginey stuff takes a lot (a lot) of support and Counting House engines are usually horribly inconsistent unless you also have Scheme or other trickery, I don't think I have ever played one (excepting designed kingdoms). When you have that kind of support it's difficult for Counting House to be the best thing to do.

If you are using Counting House for $, it's really hard for Silvers/Golds (or actions with +$) not to be better.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 12:55:04 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2015, 12:54:48 pm »
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I have tried Travelling Fair, but I don't remember the results with CH  :-[ I only remember finding it really fun to play, so.. Yeah...

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2015, 12:56:37 pm »
+2

If I have a board with Worker's Village, Coppersmith, Vault, Counting House, no really strong cards otherwise, and maybe a couple more Villages, for sure I'm buying a Counting House.  But you need to line all that stuff up.  And there are usually Attacks and things that are more worth your time.

Counting House/Travelling Fair is a BEAST.  It is a legitimate combo.

I think trying to combo Counting House and Coppersmith is usually a losing proposition, even with Workers' Village. Better to just use Counting House.

Vault is the key addition here - drop all the Coppers, redraw them with CH, etc.  Though even that might not be enough.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2015, 01:23:22 pm »
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The enginey stuff takes a lot (a lot) of support and Counting House engines are usually horribly inconsistent unless you also have Scheme or other trickery, I don't think I have ever played one (excepting designed kingdoms). When you have that kind of support it's difficult for Counting House to be the best thing to do.

Not really, you just need awesome payload (awesome enough that it doesn't matter how inconsistent your engine is) and no other draw. Sometimes you might even want Counting House without any sifting just to remove Coppers from your discard pile.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2015, 01:27:15 pm »
+1

You are entitled to your opinion Aleimon, although, I do think we should wait until after everyone has finished ranking before discussing what we voted.

I actually posted some of my more controversial opinions with the sole intention to spark some discussion, because nobody else did it but I find the discussion interesting. :P I do not specifically intend to actually influence other people's votes with this. For all I care everyone can vote Council Room in the top half and Counting House dead last again, if they think that's more accurate. But isn't discussing about the cards' strength part of the fun?
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iguanaiguana

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2015, 01:32:10 pm »
0

You are entitled to your opinion Aleimon, although, I do think we should wait until after everyone has finished ranking before discussing what we voted.

I actually posted some of my more controversial opinions with the sole intention to spark some discussion, because nobody else did it but I find the discussion interesting. :P I do not specifically intend to actually influence other people's votes with this. For all I care everyone can vote Council Room in the top half and Counting House dead last again, if they think that's more accurate. But isn't discussing about the cards' strength part of the fun?

Personally I don't see any reason to put counting house dead last as long as stash still technically exists.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2015, 01:33:28 pm »
+1

Regarding CR, #76 sounds like last place or almost last place to me, meaning that there are quite a few very bad cards in front of it which I can't quite understand, considering how many bad card there are. I agree that both Governor and Lost City are stronger for the same penalty, but +4cards is still really strong and if it's the only draw, you probably lose ignoring it, which can not be said about other 5costs

I disagree with the idea that there are many bad cards on the $5 card list. Most $5 cards are really strong and only a select few of them are relatively mediocre. I think Council Room is one of them. That doesn't mean it's weak; it's still stronger than most $4 cards, but at the $5 price point there are so many better cards.

(For the record, #76 is seventh worst. Meh, it may be just slightly too low, I don't know.)

Looks like you need to play some more Base Set Adventures on Dominion Online with Council Room.

But seriously, Council Room provides lots of draw and +buy. It helps your opponent do so as well though. The idea is that your extra +buy and cards makes your payload stronger than that of your opponent who doesn't use Council Room.

Oh yeah Lost City is probably better, so simply rate Lost City higher.

Also Mine is funny because the first game engine shows how it's good, but in practice it's one of the only boards where it's good, or rather better than your other options.

I wouldn't put Counting House last on the $5's.
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