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Author Topic: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold  (Read 6623 times)

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JW

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Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« on: October 08, 2015, 09:52:04 am »
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Bag of Holding (variant on Bag of Gold)
Action – Prize
+1 Action. Gain a card costing up to $6 that is not a Victory card. Put it on top of your deck.

Bag of Gold is an uninteresting Prize. So I attempted to make a more interesting version that still has the functionality of the original. It can’t gain victory cards because Tournament can already gain Duchies, and to keep Princess's +buy more unique among prizes. Thoughts appreciated!

Original version:
(same as current)
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popsofctown

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2015, 10:11:30 am »
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I'd point out that this actually helps make Trusty Steed's silver gain more unique.

What about letting it gain Potion costers?

"+1 Action.  Gain a card costing 6$, or gain a card if 6$ is more than the cost of that card and it is not a Victory card.  Put the gained card on top of your deck".

But then it has to allow Farmland/Nobles/Fairgrounds/Harem gains just to reclaim some real estate on the card.  Probably fine though? Since Farmlands and Harem gains are super weak, Nobles will pile out early before the spirit of the restriction is in full force, so Fairgrounds is the only offender.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2015, 10:55:32 am »
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"+1 Action.  Gain a card costing 6$, or gain a card if 6$ is more than the cost of that card in coins and it is not a Victory card.  Put the gained card on top of your deck".

Must be worded like this (I hope this works), because Potion cost cards all cost more than .
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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2015, 11:10:13 am »
+2

If you're going to go that far, you might as well make it truly unique and simpler at the same time:

"Gain a card that is not a victory card."

It's more powerful in terms of card gain, but puts the card in the discard (unless you have liopoil in hand).  But gaining anything up to a cost of $6P and topdecking it is pretty powerful.

Or with the above you could just use "Gain a card costing up to $6P" and topdeck, rather than deal with crazy wording.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2015, 11:26:14 am »
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Donald had talked about giving it +3 Actions (instead of +1 Action), and removing the +2 Actions on Trusty Steed (replacing it with something else). I think you could do that and leave Trusty Steed as-is, though.
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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2015, 11:28:30 am »
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"+1 Action.  Gain a card costing 6$, or gain a card if 6$ is more than the cost of that card in coins and it is not a Victory card.  Put the gained card on top of your deck".

Must be worded like this (I hope this works), because Potion cost cards all cost more than .

Pops' original wording is fine. $3P is more than $6, but $6 is also more than $3P.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2015, 11:35:54 am »
+5

"+1 Action.  Gain a card costing 6$, or gain a card if 6$ is more than the cost of that card in coins and it is not a Victory card.  Put the gained card on top of your deck".

Must be worded like this (I hope this works), because Potion cost cards all cost more than .

Pops' original wording is fine. $3P is more than $6, but $6 is also more than $3P.

Wrong. is NOT more than , nor is it less than it.
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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2015, 11:40:53 am »
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Wrong. is NOT more than , nor is it less than it.

It is P more and $3 less.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2015, 11:41:47 am »
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I don't see any reason to let this gain Potion cards. That just seems like a lot of extra complexity for a very rare situation. In general I'd say that allowing it to gain any non-Victory card would be ok, however, it fails to account for future design space. If a card allowed you to gain without cost restriction, what happens in the future when there's a weird card that costs $20 or something?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2015, 11:42:20 am »
+2

Wrong. is NOT more than , nor is it less than it.

It is P more and $3 less.

No... to be more than , you need to cost .
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LastFootnote

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2015, 11:48:05 am »
+1

I don't see any reason to let this gain Potion cards. That just seems like a lot of extra complexity for a very rare situation. In general I'd say that allowing it to gain any non-Victory card would be ok, however, it fails to account for future design space. If a card allowed you to gain without cost restriction, what happens in the future when there's a weird card that costs $20 or something?

Well for what it's worth, there are some cards that can gain without regard to cost. Jester and Disciple come to mind. But Jester is usually up to luck, and it takes a long time to get Disciple. It might be fine if a Prize just gained you any non-Victory card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2015, 11:51:27 am »
+2

I don't see any reason to let this gain Potion cards. That just seems like a lot of extra complexity for a very rare situation. In general I'd say that allowing it to gain any non-Victory card would be ok, however, it fails to account for future design space. If a card allowed you to gain without cost restriction, what happens in the future when there's a weird card that costs $20 or something?

Well for what it's worth, there are some cards that can gain without regard to cost. Jester and Disciple come to mind. But Jester is usually up to luck, and it takes a long time to get Disciple. It might be fine if a Prize just gained you any non-Victory card.

Well both of those require that the card was already gained in another way before they can gain it.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2015, 11:58:08 am »
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I don't see any reason to let this gain Potion cards. That just seems like a lot of extra complexity for a very rare situation. In general I'd say that allowing it to gain any non-Victory card would be ok, however, it fails to account for future design space. If a card allowed you to gain without cost restriction, what happens in the future when there's a weird card that costs $20 or something?

Well for what it's worth, there are some cards that can gain without regard to cost. Jester and Disciple come to mind. But Jester is usually up to luck, and it takes a long time to get Disciple. It might be fine if a Prize just gained you any non-Victory card.

Well both of those require that the card was already gained in another way before they can gain it.

Yes, good point.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 12:00:41 pm by LastFootnote »
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Awaclus

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2015, 12:04:37 pm »
+5

I don't see any reason to let this gain Potion cards. That just seems like a lot of extra complexity for a very rare situation. In general I'd say that allowing it to gain any non-Victory card would be ok, however, it fails to account for future design space. If a card allowed you to gain without cost restriction, what happens in the future when there's a weird card that costs $20 or something?

Well for what it's worth, there are some cards that can gain without regard to cost. Jester and Disciple come to mind. But Jester is usually up to luck, and it takes a long time to get Disciple. It might be fine if a Prize just gained you any non-Victory card.

Well both of those require that the card was already gained in another way before they can gain it.

Squire doesn't.
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popsofctown

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2015, 12:14:49 pm »
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6$ is more than the cost of Golem.  6$ is not more than the cost of Possession.
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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2015, 12:15:56 pm »
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Platinum is the only reason I'd dislike an open ended "gain a card that is not a victory card".
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GendoIkari

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2015, 12:16:44 pm »
+2

6$ is more than the cost of Golem.  6$ is not more than the cost of Possession.

This simply isn't true... if it were, then "Gain a card costing up to " would allow you to gain a Golem.
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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2015, 12:18:31 pm »
+1

That's because 4P is more than 6$.
6$ is also more than 4P.
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JW

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2015, 12:20:07 pm »
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If you're going to go that far, you might as well make it truly unique and simpler at the same time:

"Gain a card that is not a victory card."

It's more powerful in terms of card gain, but puts the card in the discard (unless you have liopoil in hand).  But gaining anything up to a cost of $6P and topdecking it is pretty powerful.

If you want it to be able to gain Potion-cost cards, then this idea (gain anything that is not a victory card) looks good. But then the card loses the ability to topdeck a gold, its original function. And Potion cost or >6 cost cards may completely outclass Gold leading the card even further from the original function (e.g., Possession, Platinum, or King's Court).

Donald had talked about giving it +3 Actions (instead of +1 Action), and removing the +2 Actions on Trusty Steed (replacing it with something else). I think you could do that and leave Trusty Steed as-is, though.

On some boards it would be nice if there was more than one +Actions Prize but +3 Actions and topdeck a gold don't go together thematically, and I think that version would be gained more for the actions than for the Gold. It would certainly make the card stronger and more interesting, though.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2015, 12:20:50 pm »
+6

That's because 4P is more than 6$.
6$ is also more than 4P.

No... this is a mathematical contradiction. Neither is more than the other because they cannot directly be compared. You can't say A>B AND B>A.
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popsofctown

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2015, 12:22:25 pm »
+1

If you're going to go that far, you might as well make it truly unique and simpler at the same time:

"Gain a card that is not a victory card."

It's more powerful in terms of card gain, but puts the card in the discard (unless you have liopoil in hand).  But gaining anything up to a cost of $6P and topdecking it is pretty powerful.

If you want it to be able to gain Potion-cost cards, then this idea (gain anything that is not a victory card) looks good. But then the card loses the ability to topdeck a gold, its original function. And Potion cost or >6 cost cards may completely outclass Gold leading the card even further from the original function (e.g., Possession, Platinum, or King's Court).

Donald had talked about giving it +3 Actions (instead of +1 Action), and removing the +2 Actions on Trusty Steed (replacing it with something else). I think you could do that and leave Trusty Steed as-is, though.

On some boards it would be nice if there was more than one +Actions Prize but +3 Actions and topdeck a gold don't go together thematically, and I think that version would be gained more for the actions than for the Gold. It would certainly make the card stronger and more interesting, though.
The original function of the card kinda sucks.  That's the thing.
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Kirian

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2015, 12:23:25 pm »
+3

That's because 4P is more than 6$.
6$ is also more than 4P.

No.  Neither of those is greater or less than the other.  Someone from the math thread explain the terminology here.  Something about directed graphs?
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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2015, 12:23:31 pm »
+3

Guys, guys... we've talked about this :(
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JW

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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2015, 12:25:47 pm »
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The original function of the card kinda sucks.  That's the thing.

That's true, it's most useful when you have a trash for benefit that needs Golds (Apprentice is an example), or when you know you are going to play terminal draw with your last action and want the 3 coins.

Also, can we please move discussion of "greater than" and what wordings would or wouldn't work to a different thread? Thanks.
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Re: Bag of Holding - variant on Bag of Gold
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2015, 12:25:57 pm »
+3

One discussion was around here (I think there was a separate thread too):

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9621.msg307220#msg307220

Tables' helpful diagram was here:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9621.msg307002#msg307002
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 12:28:25 pm by Witherweaver »
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