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Author Topic: Thanks for helping me win!  (Read 14949 times)

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Aleimon Thimble

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Thanks for helping me win!
« on: October 04, 2015, 06:41:01 pm »
+18

So today was the official Dutch national championship Dominion, and I managed to reach third place!  :D I'm really proud of it, since I've only played competitive Dominion for a couple of months and I managed to beat players who have been there like three years in a row. But I couldn't have done it without this forum and the Wiki. You guys learned me everything I needed to learn about engines, Big Money, combos and alt-VP strategies, and all sorts of other strategic concepts. So thank you! :D

I'm really happy, and on top of it I won the expansion Adventures in Dutch, which is good since I can now sell the English version to buy another expansion. ^^ Alright, I'll admit the English version is more awesome, but it doesn't fit well with my Dutch base game, so yeah.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2015, 06:55:51 pm »
+2

Congratulations! Now you just have to take first place next year. :)
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2015, 06:59:47 pm »
0

Congratulations! Now you just have to take first place next year. :)

That would be awesome! Still, it's only Base and it's 4-player, and there's a single final round to determine the winner, so luck plays an important role as well. Even if I'll be the best player by next year, I can still lose. But I'll definitely try again. :)
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Davio

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2015, 08:11:00 am »
0

Sad that I couldn't make it this year.

Somehow they also do a good job of not advertising this so I always find out way too late.
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Voltaire

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2015, 11:14:37 am »
+1

Sad that I couldn't make it this year.

Somehow they also do a good job of not advertising this so I always find out way too late.

"Official" Dominion tournaments/championships are really more akin to barnstorming in sports than a formal league, due to their scattershot geographic spread, timing, and near-invisible advertising. Hopefully that will improve down the line. Clearly there's tons of players missing out because of it.

Anyway, congrats OP! Always nice to be reminded that even 4-player base Dominion can be high-skill.
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popsofctown

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2015, 11:55:01 am »
+4

Sad that I couldn't make it this year.

Somehow they also do a good job of not advertising this so I always find out way too late.

"Official" Dominion tournaments/championships are really more akin to barnstorming in sports than a formal league, due to their scattershot geographic spread, timing, and near-invisible advertising. Hopefully that will improve down the line. Clearly there's tons of players missing out because of it.

Anyway, congrats OP! Always nice to be reminded that even 4-player base Dominion can be high-skill.
I have never heard of barnstorming sports.  I wonder if my lack of knowledge can be attributed to their scattershot geographic spread, timing, and near-invisible advertising.
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-Stef-

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2015, 12:19:34 pm »
+1

Congrats Aleimon on doing so well. Good to hear you had fun and I guess that's what its all about.
"Official NK Dominion" also sounds a bit strange to me. I know I wasn't there, SCSN wasn't there, apparently Davio wasn't and I assume florrat wasn't either.
4P, base only, and 1 game to determine who is "best" are all elements that made me not even want to go.

Anyway, tempting now to organize an "Even more official NK Dominion" that actually uses all sets, 2P games, and any number >1 games in the finals.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2015, 01:44:20 pm »
+1

Congrats Aleimon on doing so well. Good to hear you had fun and I guess that's what its all about.
"Official NK Dominion" also sounds a bit strange to me. I know I wasn't there, SCSN wasn't there, apparently Davio wasn't and I assume florrat wasn't either.
4P, base only, and 1 game to determine who is "best" are all elements that made me not even want to go.

Anyway, tempting now to organize an "Even more official NK Dominion" that actually uses all sets, 2P games, and any number >1 games in the finals.

999 Games advertised it as the official Dutch championship Dominion, don't shoot the messenger.  :P

I would definitely join a two-player all-set even-more-official Dominion championship even if it meant I'd finish last because I'd get slaughtered by you and other top players. :D
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Davio

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2015, 01:11:52 pm »
0

Congrats Aleimon on doing so well. Good to hear you had fun and I guess that's what its all about.
"Official NK Dominion" also sounds a bit strange to me. I know I wasn't there, SCSN wasn't there, apparently Davio wasn't and I assume florrat wasn't either.
4P, base only, and 1 game to determine who is "best" are all elements that made me not even want to go.

Anyway, tempting now to organize an "Even more official NK Dominion" that actually uses all sets, 2P games, and any number >1 games in the finals.

999 Games advertised it as the official Dutch championship Dominion, don't shoot the messenger.  :P

I would definitely join a two-player all-set even-more-official Dominion championship even if it meant I'd finish last because I'd get slaughtered by you and other top players. :D
We once had an unofficial championship at ArjanB's house with most serious Dutch players at the time, including Stef, SheCantSayNo and myself. I don't think Florrat was around at the time, it was probably about 2 years ago.

That was a lot of fun and I would love to do it again, but actually being able to make it is going to be difficult.
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florrat

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2015, 01:29:18 pm »
0

Congrats Aleimon on doing so well. Good to hear you had fun and I guess that's what its all about.
"Official NK Dominion" also sounds a bit strange to me. I know I wasn't there, SCSN wasn't there, apparently Davio wasn't and I assume florrat wasn't either.
4P, base only, and 1 game to determine who is "best" are all elements that made me not even want to go.

Anyway, tempting now to organize an "Even more official NK Dominion" that actually uses all sets, 2P games, and any number >1 games in the finals.

Since I currently live in the US (for a PhD), indeed, I wasn't there  :)
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2015, 05:31:13 pm »
0

Congratulations! Now you just have to take first place next year. :)

That would be awesome! Still, it's only Base and it's 4-player, and there's a single final round to determine the winner, so luck plays an important role as well. Even if I'll be the best player by next year, I can still lose. But I'll definitely try again. :)

You should try convincing them adding more expansions next year. I know it is a cost issue. I am working towards hosting my own tournament (actually, I want someone else to host, so I can play in it). Anyway, I have been acquiring extra sets. Right now, I have two of everything except Adventures and the Prince promo which I have one of each, and I have 3 copies of Prosperity, Alchemy, and Base. Also, my mom and her boyfriend have 1 copy of all the expansions, so I think I am close to being able to host a good tournament. Anyway, maybe you should talk to the players and see who owns what expansions, maybe you guys can pool together to add more variety.
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popsofctown

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2015, 05:36:10 pm »
0

Is it really that expensive if you use a kingdom selection method where there is no overlap between cards during concurrent rounds of the tournament?  You'd need like twice as many Dominion boxes per game for a limitless number of expansions, I'd reckon.. Assuming you exclude/restrict Alchemy, Prosperity, and Dark Ages.
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SCSN

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2015, 05:58:51 pm »
+4

You should try convincing them adding more expansions next year.

Last year they had Base + Intrigue, whereas the year before—the only year I attended—Seaside was included as well.

Extrapolating this trend would mean that next year's championship will be played with Base Cards only, with two years from now posing the ultimate challenge: to win with no cards at all.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2015, 07:43:32 pm »
0

You should try convincing them adding more expansions next year.

Last year they had Base + Intrigue, whereas the year before—the only year I attended—Seaside was included as well.

Extrapolating this trend would mean that next year's championship will be played with Base Cards only, with two years from now posing the ultimate challenge: to win with no cards at all.

Seriously? That's ridiculous. I can understand it if they don't add the newer expansions due to cost issues, but why would they actively remove expansions over the years?
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SCSN

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2015, 08:48:13 pm »
+6

It was a different organisation each time, so it's sort of like online Dominion getting worse with each successive developer.
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Voltaire

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2015, 10:52:35 pm »
+1

Is it really that expensive if you use a kingdom selection method where there is no overlap between cards during concurrent rounds of the tournament?  You'd need like twice as many Dominion boxes per game for a limitless number of expansions, I'd reckon.. Assuming you exclude/restrict Alchemy, Prosperity, and Dark Ages.

I've hosted tournaments each way, and it really depends on what your overall goals are. Static tables with rotating players means you have to have a good seating chart worked out ahead of time and limits the format the tournament can take - simultaneous play with identical kingdoms makes results more fairly comparable, but obviously has a significant setup cost.
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AdamH

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2015, 06:45:58 am »
0

I am working towards hosting my own tournament (actually, I want someone else to host, so I can play in it). Anyway, I have been acquiring extra sets. Right now, I have two of everything except Adventures and the Prince promo which I have one of each, and I have 3 copies of Prosperity, Alchemy, and Base.

In hosting my tournaments I'm finding the bottleneck is sets of base cards (treasures, victory cards, curses). With my set of kingdom cards alone I can easily support 5 or 6 really good kingdoms with zero overlap.

I've had success with having static kingdoms and people move between them, it seems to me that it's a lot more trouble to switch them out between rounds (like it takes a lot of time). I've found it's not hard to make good pairings if you have mostly 3P games, and the more difficult problem of mostly 2P games, well, I wrote a script to help with that.

I find it strange that someone can put together a tournament and not include the last 6 years worth of expansions. I understand why people don't want 2P games (you need more base cards because you need more games, it's more work putting the kingdoms together, etc.) and I understand why people want only one game per "round" even in the finals (each game takes quite a while to play), but having more expansions just makes your life easier.
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-Stef-

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2015, 07:42:40 am »
+2

The two main problems here are:

 1) the idea that it's required to play the same kingdom on every table, and therefore it's not practical to play with a lot of sets.
 2) the idea that a single game of dominion is a meaningful result.


2P, 3P or 4P is probably just a matter of preference, but on these two points I think this organization simply fails hard.

Perhaps it would be nice if we (f.ds community) could write a document that helps them (officials that get the assignment of organizing a dominion tournament despite having no clue what the game is about).
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AdamH

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2015, 07:49:43 am »
0

Perhaps it would be nice if we (f.ds community) could write a document that helps them (officials that get the assignment of organizing a dominion tournament despite having no clue what the game is about).

I was planning to at least make a post about this once I knew what I was talking about. My second IRL tournament is this weekend (shameless plug) so maybe that will help, but I still don't really feel like I know what I'm doing enough for this.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2015, 07:56:23 am »
0

The two main problems here are:

 1) the idea that it's required to play the same kingdom on every table, and therefore it's not practical to play with a lot of sets.
 2) the idea that a single game of dominion is a meaningful result.


2P, 3P or 4P is probably just a matter of preference, but on these two points I think this organization simply fails hard.

Perhaps it would be nice if we (f.ds community) could write a document that helps them (officials that get the assignment of organizing a dominion tournament despite having no clue what the game is about).

Well, assuming the tournament will again be hosted by 999 Games next year, I guess I could sent them an email. But since SCSN mentioned that the host differs from year to year, perhaps it would be better to wait until someone announces the championship next year.

Since one of the officials asked me how many curses were needed for a four-player game, and none of them were familiar with the rule that the person with the least turns wins in case of an equal amount of points, your claim that the officials have no clue what the game is about seems to have some basis in reality.

(Although I probably shouldn't complain too much about a tournament in which I finished third)
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Hugovj

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2015, 08:09:51 am »
0

But.. But.. They're the publishers! They should know their own game!

Also, there is another mistake in the Dutch translation of Adventures, but I should look that one up.

Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2015, 08:15:47 am »
0

But.. But.. They're the publishers! They should know their own game!

I guess they know what all of their games are about, but they don't specifically know every single rule by heart. Unlike us, those guys are not specifically Dominion nerds ;)

Quote
Also, there is another mistake in the Dutch translation of Adventures, but I should look that one up.

The most annoying mistake to me is the fact that Treasure Trove is translated differently in the box than on the cards; 'Verloren Schat' resp. 'Verborgen Schat'. It's probably the fault of Lost City (Verloren Stad).
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Ratsia

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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2015, 08:26:24 am »
+6

You should try convincing them adding more expansions next year. I know it is a cost issue.
Cost should be a minor issue for any official tournament, unless there are ridiculously many players. The Finnish tournaments, organized by the local publisher/distributor/store, have always used the latest expansion and then 1-2 of the older ones. They provide the games by using existing demo copies, copies brought in by participants, and by opening new copies if needed. Some of those they retain for demoing and future tournaments, but if too many copies are opened for the tournament then they simply sell the excess ones for a small discount (either at the tournament or afterwards at their store). Whatever they lose in opening those copies is negligible and probably dwarfed already by the prizes or by the personnel costs for hosting the tournament. The tournaments are always 2-player Swiss tournaments, and at least the latest edition I went to had each pair playing best-of-three using the same kingdom (shared for all pairs) to further reduce random variation.


I can, however, hazard a guess on the real reason for hosting a base-only tournament. For companies that are not "within the community", hosting a tournament is primarily a promotion event. They want to attract a lot of people, including very casual players who do not yet own the expansions, not just the experts. They want to be able to sell more of the expansions, so requiring participants to know them in advance would be counter-productive. It also sounds more convincing when they can say they hosted a 200-player tournament, instead of a 12-player tournament where a few semi-professionals played against each other, even though the quality of play would naturally be much higher in the latter and the winner would be more worthy of the title.


In other words, Dominion is simply not at the level of an official competitive sport. You can either host a competitive tournament for good-will towards the expert community, or a bigger one for largely marketing. Mixing these two is difficult.
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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2015, 08:44:01 am »
0

I wonder what is required to make dominion more of a official competetive sport, like MTG for example. Getting more people into the game would be the most important thing for that I supose.

I guess it's not really going to happen but a man can dream.
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Re: Thanks for helping me win!
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2015, 08:47:19 am »
0

Quote
Also, there is another mistake in the Dutch translation of Adventures, but I should look that one up.

The most annoying mistake to me is the fact that Treasure Trove is translated differently in the box than on the cards; 'Verloren Schat' resp. 'Verborgen Schat'. It's probably the fault of Lost City (Verloren Stad).
Yeah, but there is also, at least one actual game-changing translation error. That order in which the cards are put in the box is really hilarious: they are in the English alphabetic order, which is one of the reasons I don't have my cards in those boxes :P
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