Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions  (Read 2361 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2576
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2678
    • View Profile
Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« on: October 03, 2015, 09:23:45 am »
+5

I really want to have this, but they can't sell it outside America :(
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/asmadigames/innovation-deluxe/updates
Logged

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1777
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1776
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2015, 12:42:15 pm »
+2

I'm considering ordering the deluxe set. Are you looking at that, or just the 3rd edition printing? If you've got money for whichever you want plus shipping, I could order it and ship it to you when I get it. (Or someone else could if there's someone you trust more in the US obviously.)
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6782
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +8717
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2015, 02:58:18 pm »
0

Ooooh this is quite tempting.  Has the Artifacts expansion been on isotropic?
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2576
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2678
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2015, 03:08:12 pm »
0

I'm considering ordering the deluxe set. Are you looking at that, or just the 3rd edition printing? If you've got money for whichever you want plus shipping, I could order it and ship it to you when I get it. (Or someone else could if there's someone you trust more in the US obviously.)

I have thought about that, but shipping from the US to Germany seems very expensive from what my quick research has yielded. Does aynbody have experience with that?
I think there is nothing known about Artifacts at all expect the title, and it certainly hasn't been on iso.
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2576
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2678
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 03:30:21 pm »
0

Apparently, sending a package roughly that siize from Germany to the USA costs 16. The other way, it costs like $65+...
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1915
  • Works with high probability
  • Respect: +2288
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 05:05:58 am »
0

Apparently, sending a package roughly that siize from Germany to the USA costs 16. The other way, it costs like $65+...

Someone recently asked if I could send my Netrunner to mainland Europe.  They were similarly shocked by the asymmetric prices (with slightly lower absolute values).
Logged

popsofctown

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4991
  • Respect: +2518
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 08:47:36 pm »
+1

I don't know if a Deluxe version of Innovation is the cleverest idea.  The game has a lot of diminishing returns on repeat plays, me saying that as probably one of the people in the world who has given it some of the most repeat plays.

Rethemes and novelty expansions would seem like better ways to make a buck.  I would have liked to see more of a genuine effort to improve the game itself, but Cities seemed to suggest no desire to do that.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1777
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1776
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2015, 10:57:41 am »
0

So according to their kickstarter, they're looking at "Fits in USPS Medium Flat Rate Box" for the box size, which I think to ship to Germany is like 40$ US? Can't check from my phone though.
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2576
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2678
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2015, 08:47:05 am »
0

That's a bit too steep for me. I decided to look for someone who's going to the Essen game fair next year who can then give it to me.
Logged

ipofanes

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 966
  • Respect: +383
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2015, 05:43:07 am »
0

I don't know if a Deluxe version of Innovation is the cleverest idea.  The game has a lot of diminishing returns on repeat plays, me saying that as probably one of the people in the world who has given it some of the most repeat plays.

Rethemes and novelty expansions would seem like better ways to make a buck.  I would have liked to see more of a genuine effort to improve the game itself, but Cities seemed to suggest no desire to do that.

Having only played in the hundreds I may not be in the position to question your verdict. But I am scratching my head over how you kept playing a game that offers you "a lot of" diminishing returns.

Also, you may not like the way the expansions are taking, but to my mind they at least walk new ways with the game. The strategy changes a lot with expansions. Cities seems to be the Alchemy of Innovation, indeed I am quite a bit wary that Artifacts will be that great after I saw how little Cities rules changed over the impressions gained at Isotropic. (But then maybe they've worked on the rules for the cardboard version.)



Finally, I don't know which Chudyk games constitute a retheme of Innovation. I have read about Mottainai (which I haven't played) described as a brush-up of Glory To Rome, but that does not make it a retheme of Innovation.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4991
  • Respect: +2518
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2015, 11:39:16 am »
0

Glancing at the leaderboard, I definitely have not given it some of the most repeat plays, actually.  I'm one of the highest rated players, but I never paid too much attention to the "games played" column, and apparently I got my high rating with relatively few plays.  My mistake.


I definitely was not accusing Chudyk of having released a retheme of Innovation.  I was suggesting it would make more sense to release a retheme rather than a deluxe version, because a retheme can get first time buyers.  And I meant a literal retheme.


I did indeed play lots and lots of innovation while on a computer that doesn't have flash.  It's an interesting game, it's definitely not awful.  But it's really disappointing that Chudyk is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, with the expansions, and not using feedback/playtesting enough, at least for 1v1 kinds of players.  There is an unbelievable number of people that prefer to play base only or base+echoes only on isotropic, and many of them have played hundreds of games, so it's not that they never plan to make the time commitment to learn the other expansions.  It's that base innovation was designed well and designed right.  I like figures a lot... but honestly only because it nerfs the standard achieve action, not because the figure cards themselves tend to be fun, in general they aren't really.  I probably would enjoy echoes with a house rule that you draw 2 echoes cards when someone standard achieves more.  Simple expansions that added more base cards to Fischer randomize the game more would be better received than what we're getting.  Or at least playtesting the new wonky stuff enough to make sure Age 6 figures are at least only slightly worse than Age 5 figures.


There's this trend with game collectors, I've noticed, someone asked about the echoes expansion while I was playing Innovation one of the few times I managed to get it to hit a table at a game night, he asked, "What does it add?"  And that's what these new mechanics are supposed to do, they're supposed to add something, so people feel like they've collected the expansion with the cards that double other dogmas, or the expansion with the cards that let you foreshadow 3 cards by removing your hand.  It's really great for feeling certain that you've bought something new before you even play with it.  But it seems like Chudyk is making efforts to answer the question "What does it add?" to an extent that harms the notion of making an expansion to improve the game experience as much as possible. 

I dunno, I could go on and on about things, I should probably stop talking.  Releasing a Deluxe version - even more so, kickstarting a Deluxe version - seems like giving yourself a pat on the back, which I'm not sure Chudyk deserves until he can make ONE expansion that people like, and that doesn't have premature game combustions that people have to tolerate (Almanac, Measurement, Watermill, all three mostly consequences of having to change the rules after going to print with the expansion)
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

ipofanes

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 966
  • Respect: +383
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2015, 06:00:50 am »
0

I definitely was not accusing Chudyk of having released a retheme of Innovation.  I was suggesting it would make more sense to release a retheme rather than a deluxe version, because a retheme can get first time buyers.  And I meant a literal retheme.

ok, I misunderstood that.

Quote
added more base cards to Fischer randomize the game

You mean, as in Chess960, keep the pieces but change their arrangement? You can do that with base cards too.

Quote
  But it seems like Chudyk is making efforts to answer the question "What does it add?" to an extent that harms the notion of making an expansion to improve the game experience as much as possible. 

I think you are having a point. Additional rules are more game-changing than they are in Dominion.

Quote
Releasing a Deluxe version - even more so, kickstarting a Deluxe version - seems like giving yourself a pat on the back, which I'm not sure Chudyk deserves until he can make ONE expansion that people like, and that doesn't have premature game combustions that people have to tolerate (Almanac, Measurement, Watermill, all three mostly consequences of having to change the rules after going to print with the expansion)

I like all the expansions but would like the issues fixed you address above. I still maintain that Watermill is mostly a trap card but it can distort the game considerably early on. But, as you said elsewhere, Almanac is the main culprit here, especially with open Dice, meld Puppet, draw Almanac.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4991
  • Respect: +2518
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2015, 11:16:09 am »
0

I meant extending beyond keeping the pieces and changing their arrangement, towards adding more pieces and randomly excluding some of them, and their arrangement.  It's not the strict definition of Fischer random but is meant to reference the principles behind it. 
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1915
  • Works with high probability
  • Respect: +2288
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2015, 03:28:38 pm »
0

"Donald X variety mechanic", Shirley?
Logged

popsofctown

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4991
  • Respect: +2518
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2015, 03:44:54 pm »
0

"Donald X variety mechanic", Shirley?

I prefer not to call it that, since Donald himself admits forms of it existed before his games, and stuff.  But, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. 
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

ipofanes

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 966
  • Respect: +383
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2015, 11:25:27 am »
+2

"Donald X variety mechanic", Shirley?

I prefer not to call it that, since Donald himself admits forms of it existed before his games, and stuff.  But, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. 
One could start by rotating out one random card per age. I wonder if this upturned pile could be integrated into the game somehow.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4991
  • Respect: +2518
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2015, 11:34:03 am »
0

"Donald X variety mechanic", Shirley?

I prefer not to call it that, since Donald himself admits forms of it existed before his games, and stuff.  But, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. 
One could start by rotating out one random card per age. I wonder if this upturned pile could be integrated into the game somehow.
Yes.  That's a good thing. I want more of the good thing. 

There are ten possible age 2 piles.  Adding one card and removing an additional random card from the pile would up it to 110 possible age 2 piles.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1777
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1776
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2015, 12:08:58 pm »
0


There are ten possible age 2 piles.  Adding one card and removing an additional random card from the pile would up it to 110 possible age 2 piles.

Wasn't one of the issues with the original rule for adding Echoes cards, that the unknown contents of the piles made the game too random?
Logged

popsofctown

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4991
  • Respect: +2518
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2015, 12:32:25 pm »
0


There are ten possible age 2 piles.  Adding one card and removing an additional random card from the pile would up it to 110 possible age 2 piles.

Wasn't one of the issues with the original rule for adding Echoes cards, that the unknown contents of the piles made the game too random?
Well, echoes cards are on a higher power level than base cards.  I was proposing cards that are designed to have a power level that matches base cards.

But I think the issue is that the piles never became empty, and you could see a blue backed card on top of the pile and naturally want to draw it to deny it from your opponent and get it, and stuff like that.  Refuse to take an action that would draw a card because the top card is a base card and you want your opponent to expose an echo first.  I don't really know, though, I never played it.
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

ipofanes

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 966
  • Respect: +383
    • View Profile
Re: Kickstarter for Deluxe version including 4 expansions
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2015, 11:24:43 am »
0

The chief reason the original rule went out of fashion was, as I remember,setup and tear down time.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.1 seconds with 20 queries.