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Author Topic: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC  (Read 9735 times)

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AdamH

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S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« on: October 01, 2015, 07:32:42 am »
+5

Join us for the Champion Match of Season 10 of the Dominion League! Can Lespeutere, a first-time A-division player, break into the exclusive League Champions club? It takes 4 wins to do it!

The match will be live streamed on my Twitch channel; Deadlock and I will be doing the commentary.

Also, we'll post here when the match goes live.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 06:29:09 am by AdamH »
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Deadlock39

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2015, 09:26:08 pm »
+1

Not sure if Adam is going to update this tonight, but I am 99% sure this will be on Adam's stream.

AdamH

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2015, 06:28:46 am »
0

Not sure if Adam is going to update this tonight, but I am 99% sure this will be on Adam's stream.

This is correct. It will be on my stream and Deadlock and I will be doing the commentary. I forgot to update this thread :-[
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AdamH

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2015, 03:00:19 pm »
0

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assemble_me

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2015, 05:11:42 am »
+3

I just dare to post the boards of the finals in here. I don't think I exaggerate if I say that it's always a pleasure and an honor to see the best players playing the boards I enjoyed playing or watching elsewhere.
Thanks for organizing the streaming/commentating and thanks to Stef and Lespeteure for an exciting final.

  • JW: Beggar, Oasis, Shanty Town, Swindler, Baron, City, Hunting Party, Rebuild, Treasury, Wharf (Provinces/Estates)
  • iguanaiguana: Crossroads, Forager, Horse Traders, Ghost Ship, Jester, Junk Dealer, Market, Outpost, Tribute, Nobles (Provinces/Estates)
  • Deadlock39: Squire, Philosopher's Stone, Gardens, Navigator, Scavenger, Festival, Hunting Party, Library, Mountebank, Saboteur (Provinces/Estates)
  • Assemble_me: Develop, Shanty Town, Trade Route, Horse Traders, Quarry, Scavenger, Taxman, Library, Upgrade, Hunting Grounds (Provinces/Estates)
  • iguanaiguana: Transmute, Beggar, Coppersmith, Ironmonger, Spice Merchant, Mine, Border Village, Farmland, Grand Market, Harem (Provinces/Estates)
  • Assemble_me: Pearl Diver, Hermit, Menagerie, Oasis, Procession, Salvager, Counting House, Outpost, Rabble, Saboteur (Provinces/Estates)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 04:58:16 am by assemble_me »
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Micha1980

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2015, 05:38:27 am »
0

Adam would u pls to be so kind so upload the matches on ur YouTube-channel?

Thx!
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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2015, 05:40:39 am »
0

Adam would u pls to be so kind so upload the matches on ur YouTube-channel?

Thx!

Until it's on YT, you can watch it here as well: http://www.twitch.tv/adamhorton/profile/past_broadcasts
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AdamH

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2015, 06:34:10 am »
+1

Adam would u pls to be so kind so upload the matches on ur YouTube-channel?

Thx!

Sorry for the delay

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2015, 07:19:40 am »
+5

Thanks for organizing the finals. It was a pleasure to play them. I just watched back the videos and I made a lot of misplays, way more then I like to think I usually do.

Beggar, Oasis, Shanty Town, Swindler, Baron, City, Hunting Party,Rebuild, Treasury, Wharf (Provinces/Estates)
Here I just get absurdly bad draws. Drawing shanty dead on turn 4, dead on turn 6, double dead on turn 7, then putting 2 wharves in the bottom 3 cards of the shuffle.
On those kind of draws it doesn't matter all that much what you do so I can totally live with losing this one. Several people claim that rebuild is viable or maybe even best here, but I still don't see it.

Crossroads, Forager, Horse Traders, Ghost Ship, Jester, Junk Dealer, Market, Outpost, Tribute, Nobles (Provinces/Estates)
This one I play really bad, by far the worst of the set. Again I don't get lucky, I should be pretty much ahead if my Forager and Horse Traders don't collide, or if I can react to his Ghost Ship with Horse Traders. But that is no excuse for the terrible things I do from turn 3-6. Fooling around with crossroads before I hit $5 is exactly that... foolish. If I discard the estate and forager on turn 3 and buy a $5 I'm behind but still in it. Now I'm just toast.

Squire, Philosopher's Stone, Gardens, Navigator, Scavenger, Festival, Hunting Party, Library, Mountebank, Saboteur (Provinces/Estates)
In hindsight I think I could go for Philosophers Stones from the start. Topdecking your stones with Scavenger may very well be strong enough to make it work. When fighting the engine the focus should be mainly on the Philosophers Stones, gardens are nice bonus near the end that make it viable. In a mirror you go for gardens much sooner. Still, it's really scary, and the hunting party stack is much stronger then the commentators seem to think it is in the hands of a capable engine player.

Develop, Shanty Town, Trade Route, Horse Traders, Quarry, Scavenger, Taxman, Library,Upgrade, Hunting Grounds (Provinces/Estates)
I try to set up the draw early and go for trashing later. Not what I usually do, but here the draw cards are very strong and the more expensive trasher (Upgrade) is really a lot better then the terminal ones at $3. Still, on the draws he gets I would have loved opening develop, but then he takes a 2nd one on turn 5 which seems very greedy and eventually what costs him the game.
Terminal space is very limited here because Shanty Town as only village is such a poor one for decks like this. The commentators are very focused on the Shanty Town split, but I don't think you can take a lot of them early. Sure then you win the split but a stack of shanty towns get you nowhere for a long time, and you'll end up with a lot of miserable turns to pay for winning that split.

Transmute, Beggar, Coppersmith, Ironmonger, Spice Merchant, Mine, Border Village, Farmland, Grand Market, Harem (Provinces/Estates)
I basically play too simple here. On these draws ($5/$3 on turns 3/4) I like adding a Mine, on $4/$4 playing with a second Spice Merchant would have been nice. Now I'm just too slow compared to that. When my Spice Merchant misses copper on turn 8 I fall another turn behind and it's hopeless.
On turn 5 I take farmland estate->ironmonger because I don't want the Border Village (this early) in this deck. It kills my ironmongers and I hope to take a lot of those. I would have taken ironmonger over BV+ironmonger if Farmland was not on the board.
I intentionally lower the piles on my last turn to dangerous levels, and although I agree with that, I now prefer taking 2 more Farmlands instead of a Harem. His extra control over the Harem pile makes that the least preferable pile to run for me. I hoped it would put him in a situation where he couldn't upgrade a silver on a bad draw, but that looks like a long stretch now.

Pearl Diver, Hermit, Menagerie, Oasis, Procession, Salvager, Counting House, Outpost,Rabble, Saboteur (Provinces/Estates)
Crazy procession set where it's very easy to underestimate the explosiveness. Nicely demonstrated by people not even convinced I would be able to pile out on turn 10, let alone 9. I agree with most of both our plays, although lespeutere is a bit heavy on menageries / low on oasis all game long. His early Outpost probably pushed him a bit in that direction (and rightfully so), but not this far.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 07:54:32 am by -Stef- »
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AdamH

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2015, 07:52:14 am »
+1

Thanks for organizing the finals. It was a pleasure to play them.

I was really happy about this match, it's been a really long time since we've had a super-close championship match. There was actual tension for quite a while and we selected the last board the way we did just because it could have been "epic." This match lived up to that.

I feel like the commentary went pretty well this time. I'll listen to it again of course but I felt pretty good about it coming out of the match. I got a little more time than normal to do some playtesting here so that helps.

I should also say that Deadlock, Assemble_me, and drsteelhammer all did quite a bit of work organizing the submissions and playtesting them. I wasn't able to prepare as much for this since I didn't have access until the end of the season, but these guys really bossed it. Here are some posts of theirs to upvote.

As a commentator, I find the toughest thing is to point out when the players are misplaying. It was especially tough for me this season since I directly lost to these very same people during the regular season of the league, so challenging their plays is always risky. There are very few statements I made this time that I would make corrections to, unless I later correct myself on the video, so I'm happy with that.


Beggar, Oasis, Shanty Town, Swindler, Baron, City, Hunting Party,Rebuild, Treasury, Wharf (Provinces/Estates)
Several people claim that rebuild is viable or maybe even best here, but I still don't see it.

I played this board quite a lot in playtesting (and I know it saw lots more play among other playtesters. While I think the percentages are close between all competing strategies, I think Rebuild has the highest percentage. I figured you guys wouldn't play Rebuild because why would we put a kingdom where Rebuild is best in the League Championship? And I was right, neither of you touched it. But I really don't understand how you can say it isn't even close or that Rebuild isn't viable here at all. Rebuild has some really strong enablers here and can consistently end the game on T12 with 21-24 points and lots of Provinces in the trash.


Squire, Philosopher's Stone, Gardens, Navigator, Scavenger, Festival, Hunting Party, Library, Mountebank, Saboteur (Provinces/Estates)
the hunting party stack is much stronger then the commentators seem to think it is in the hands of a capable engine player.

If I said the HP stack was weak, maybe I misspoke. I certainly don't think HP+Mountebank is a weak strategy, but the Squire/Gardens/Phil Stone deck with Scavenger to support is so strong here I think it beats the pants off a HP stack. I don't even think it's close. Admittedly, this one didn't get nearly as much testing by me personally as some of the other ones, probably because it seemed really clear to me that this strategy was best and the finesse here would be choosing the right enablers at the right time, when to dive for Gardens, etc.


Develop, Shanty Town, Trade Route, Horse Traders, Quarry, Scavenger, Taxman, Library,Upgrade, Hunting Grounds (Provinces/Estates)
Terminal space is very limited here because Shanty Town as only village is such a poor one for decks like this. The commentators are very focused on the Shanty Town split, but I don't think you can take a lot of them early. Sure then you win the split but a stack of shanty towns get you nowhere for a long time, and you'll end up with a lot of miserable turns to pay for winning that split.

In Lespeutere's deck, he would have benefitted quite a bit from some more Shanty Towns (with Library as the main source of draw). I feel like going for Libraries first can accelerate your growth into a HG-based deck or something like that. That's where I was going with those comments, but you guys both got HG before any Libraries, so that discussion stopped being relevant until Lespeutere went for more Libraries later on after losing the Shanty Town split.
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SCSN

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2015, 07:57:53 am »
+1

Beggar, Oasis, Shanty Town, Swindler, Baron, City, Hunting Party,Rebuild, Treasury, Wharf (Provinces/Estates)[/url]
[...]
Several people claim that rebuild is viable or maybe even best here, but I still don't see it.

Well, if you think HP-Baron beats Rebuild-Baron that just means you're vastly underestimating the latter strategy. Replace Swindler with Transmute on this board and Rebuild-Baron would be comfortably best. With Swindler in the mix it's not so clear, but it would surprise me if it did enough harm on average to make R-B not even competitive.
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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2015, 08:09:48 am »
+1

It was especially tough for me this season since I directly lost to these very same people during the regular season of the league, so challenging their plays is always risky.

What's risky about it? The absolute worst that can happen is that you say something that isn't true. Big deal. If people want absolute truth they should be studying formal logic instead of watching Dominion streams.
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AdamH

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2015, 08:12:45 am »
0

It was especially tough for me this season since I directly lost to these very same people during the regular season of the league, so challenging their plays is always risky.

What's risky about it? The absolute worst that can happen is that you say something that isn't true. Big deal. If people want absolute truth they should be studying formal logic instead of watching Dominion streams.

This is true, but man I feel like a jerk saying I think I can do better than the (supposedly) best two players in the world if I'm not totally right about it. I don't get the chance on stream to put my money where my mouth is and actually play the strategy or tactic that I think is best, I can only speculate.
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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2015, 08:41:38 am »
+1

But I really don't understand how you can say it isn't even close or that Rebuild isn't viable here at all. Rebuild has some really strong enablers here and can consistently end the game on T12 with 21-24 points and lots of Provinces in the trash.
I didn't say Rebuild isn't viable, I said I don't see it. My guess would that it takes rebuild longer then that to end the game. If it does end on turn 12, rebuild easily wins. Regardless, I'm not sure here at all and don't want to make any bold statements.

As a commentator, I find the toughest thing is to point out when the players are misplaying. It was especially tough for me this season since I directly lost to these very same people during the regular season of the league, so challenging their plays is always risky. There are very few statements I made this time that I would make corrections to, unless I later correct myself on the video, so I'm happy with that.
I wouldn't worry about making a couple of wrong statements. You were both very far off when assessing the gamestate as being roughly equal during game 1, but I don't mind. I would certainly prefer you trying to assess the gamestate to not speaking about it at all.
I wouldn't mind either if you would have criticized my laughably bad play on turn 3 of the second game. Being good at this game certainly doesn't mean I make no mistakes, I just hope to make slightly less then most other people.

I figured you guys wouldn't play Rebuild because why would we put a kingdom where Rebuild is best in the League Championship? And I was right, neither of you touched it.
I've never included a line of though a la "but then this game wouldn't be in the championship" in my board analysis. And I don't think I ever will. Not unless you develop an AI that plays on level 70 and use that to analyze the boards.

Squire, Philosopher's Stone, Gardens, Navigator, Scavenger, Festival, Hunting Party, Library, Mountebank, Saboteur (Provinces/Estates)
the hunting party stack is much stronger then the commentators seem to think it is in the hands of a capable engine player.

If I said the HP stack was weak, maybe I misspoke. I certainly don't think HP+Mountebank is a weak strategy, but the Squire/Gardens/Phil Stone deck with Scavenger to support is so strong here I think it beats the pants off a HP stack. I don't even think it's close. Admittedly, this one didn't get nearly as much testing by me personally as some of the other ones, probably because it seemed really clear to me that this strategy was best and the finesse here would be choosing the right enablers at the right time, when to dive for Gardens, etc.
Choosing Mountebank as your payload card in a HP stack against a philstone/gardens deck may very well be the problem here.
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AdamH

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2015, 08:50:44 am »
0

I wouldn't worry about making a couple of wrong statements. You were both very far off when assessing the gamestate as being roughly equal during game 1, but I don't mind. I would certainly prefer you trying to assess the gamestate to not speaking about it at all.

Yeah yeah it's easy to say that now, but when you're in the moment it's hard to work up the courage to point out what you think is a misplay.
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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2015, 11:05:33 am »
+4

This is true, but man I feel like a jerk saying I think I can do better than the (supposedly) best two players in the world if I'm not totally right about it. I don't get the chance on stream to put my money where my mouth is and actually play the strategy or tactic that I think is best, I can only speculate.

You're not commentating in order to be right, you're there to make it interesting. You're not there to make the players look bad either (the people in the chat will do that unintentionally).
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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2015, 12:22:24 pm »
+2

But I really don't understand how you can say it isn't even close or that Rebuild isn't viable here at all. Rebuild has some really strong enablers here and can consistently end the game on T12 with 21-24 points and lots of Provinces in the trash.
I didn't say Rebuild isn't viable, I said I don't see it. My guess would that it takes rebuild longer then that to end the game. If it does end on turn 12, rebuild easily wins. Regardless, I'm not sure here at all and don't want to make any bold statements.

I'm glad that my kingdom submission has provoked so much discussion and playtesting! I found it interesting because there were a lot of competing strategies and, due to Oasis, you might want to add Rebuild to an engine strategy as well.

Adam seems to be talking not about Rebuild emptying all 8 Provinces on T12 but rather that Rebuild can accumulate 3-4 Provinces and mill another Province or two by turn 12. Here is a sample log in which Wandering Winder has 4 Provinces and has milled another one by turn 12. While that's not game-ending if the opponent hasn't already bought Provinces themselves, given how many VP Rebuild burns through it doesn't look like the Wharf-City strategies played in the Champions match would be fast enough to win half of games.
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AdamH

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2015, 12:32:29 pm »
+2

Looks like I got my numbers confused, yeah. Milling the rest of the Provinces/enough Provinces to win the game looks like it took two more turns. Here are a couple more game logs, where we're actually testing Rebuild vs. the engine:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20151003/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1443913835597.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20151003/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1443913394769.txt

Note that in both of these cases, I had the win in hand on T14 but we decided to have me effectively pass my turn since I went first in both games, just to see if first player was a deciding factor here, so the game results are a bit decieving. I also could have been picking up Estates on some buys and just naming Estate to mill Provinces? I'm not convinced I played the Rebuild perfectly.

I came away from this believing that Rebuild was probably the best strategy here, but that it's pretty close.
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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2015, 12:36:32 pm »
+3

For Rebuild you want to open Baron/Oasis and buy Duchy over a 4th Rebuild.
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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2015, 06:24:12 pm »
+2

Thanks guys for this interesting match.
Unfortunately I misjudged and -played the last one so badly, finding sleep was a little hard.

Anyway, farewell to league dominion for me for now. Thank you also for organising it, maybe I can join in for some commentating here and there.

Take care
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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2015, 11:35:37 pm »
0

Hey all, it's great to have some discussion about these boards here. I also really appreciate the commentary feedback. I'd like to hear anything you guys have to say that might help me or any other future commentators step up our game.

I have a few random thoughts about previous comments (made even more random because I am feeling too lazy to try quoting them at this point.

In the Gardens game, I played the board a few times trying to beat Squire/Gardens with a HP stack, and really didn't feel like I could ever go fast enough. I can't claim any testing has perfect execution, but I tried a few different things with payload and build order, and it didn't feel like it was close enough that refining the strategy would be enough to overcome the slog. Skipping the Mountebank did seem better, but didn't feel like enough. I'd love to see the result of a couple top players testing it out.

In hindsight, I agree that we probably focused too much on the Shanty Towns in the 4th game. One of the things I've found most difficult when commentating is when the play takes a course we didn't see in testing. It can be hard to switch gears from the things you think you know about a board and focus on what is actually happening.  Unrelated to that board in particular, I've found that it is definitely tricky to chat about the general strategy of a board while the players are pausing to think, and not miss some of the things that happen as play picks back up. I tried to focus specifically on tracking the board state more carefully after noticing that had happened last season.  On that note, Stef brought up our comments about things being even in the first game, which I think was at least partially due to being off a bit on tracking board state. At the end of turn 7 I guessed incorrectly that Lespeutere's Swindler was in Stef's Deck, which would have made them almost identical (with mismatched Baron/Swindler and Les a bit ahead having with one City over a Shanty Town). We were certainly off track on how that first game was going in the early game.

Man, that 5th board. There are so many decisions to make on that board. It was fun to watch.

It was fun seeing DG's prediction that "Stef would win next turn" come true even if may not have meant to include the Outpost turn. The pile out there was very impressive, and highlights Procession's pile draining capability.

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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2015, 10:27:03 pm »
0

I couldn't open the logs for this. Is that because Goko is ending? Will that affect Salvager?
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Re: S10 Champion Match: LIVE streamed Wed. 7 October, 1900 UTC
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2015, 02:02:21 am »
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