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[ehunt]

i mean frob the snatz is clearly $snatz \mapsto snatz^q$

[Haddock]

I would say that things have an implicit "when you play this" unless they have another timing condition on them like "while".

No, cards that have another timing condition on them set up an effect with that timing condition when they are played because of the implicit "when you play this". When you Throne a Bridge, costs are reduced by $2, because two "this turn" effects are set up when you play it. If it didn't have an implicit "when you play this", Throne Room would not affect it at all, but instead, cards would just cost $1 less all the time because it's always "this turn".

Bridge does not have a timing condition that would override the implicit "When you play this". Im saying that I think "while in play" would override "When you play this" because you cant have the two together and still make grammatical sense.

Edit: wait I have a better reason than just grammatical sense.  effects have a start and end time. "while" dictates both start and end. Its start time therefore conflicts with the implicit "when you play this" start time and overrides it by virtue of explicitness. Bridge does not have a start time condition, so sticks with "when you play this". Its end time condition is there on the card, fine.

[Awaclus]

Bridge does not have a timing condition that would override the implicit "When you play this". Im saying that I think "while in play" would override "When you play this" because you cant have the two together and still make grammatical sense.

It doesn't override anything. They just set up a "this turn" effect and "while in play" effect when they are played, respectively.

[GendoIkari]

I would say that things have an implicit "when you play this" unless they have another timing condition on them like "while".

No, cards that have another timing condition on them set up an effect with that timing condition when they are played because of the implicit "when you play this". When you Throne a Bridge, costs are reduced by $2, because two "this turn" effects are set up when you play it. If it didn't have an implicit "when you play this", Throne Room would not affect it at all, but instead, cards would just cost $1 less all the time because it's always "this turn".

This is redundant, but our point is that when the other timing is "while this is in play", it makes "when you play this" no longer work the same, because English. "When you play this, stuff is different until the end of turn" is a pretty clear English phrase. "When you play this, while this is in play, stuff is different" is not. It sounds weird and people wouldn't say it. So instead, they wouldn't read the implied "when you play this", and would just play it as if it weren't there.

[Awaclus]

This is redundant, but our point is that when the other timing is "while this is in play", it makes "when you play this" no longer work the same, because English. "When you play this, stuff is different until the end of turn" is a pretty clear English phrase. "When you play this, while this is in play, stuff is different" is not. It sounds weird and people wouldn't say it. So instead, they wouldn't read the implied "when you play this", and would just play it as if it weren't there.

But it's not supposed to work that way considering how other Dominion cards already work.

[Haddock]

But it's not supposed to work that way considering how other Dominion cards already work.

It's a brand new keyphrase therefore we can decide for it to override any implicit wording already in existence.

There was an implicit rule saying "Card costs always remain the same" until Bridge came along.  Noone thought that was inconsistent.
There was an implicit rule saying "Treasure may only be played in the Buy phase" until Black Market and Storyteller came along.  Noone thought that was inconsistent.
There was an implicit rule saying "All Action cards are discarded at the start of Clean-Up" until Duration cards came along.  Noone thought that was inconsistent.

[Awaclus]

It's a brand new keyphrase therefore we can decide for it to override any implicit wording already in existence.

There was an implicit rule saying "Card costs always remain the same" until Bridge came along.  Noone thought that was inconsistent.
There was an implicit rule saying "Treasure may only be played in the Buy phase" until Black Market and Storyteller came along.  Noone thought that was inconsistent.
There was an implicit rule saying "All Action cards are discarded at the start of Clean-Up" until Duration cards came along.  Noone thought that was inconsistent.

It is not a "brand new keyphrase". It does a combination of things that are already being done by other cards, so it needs to work like a combination of those things. By that logic, you could say that "When you would gain a Smithy" is also a new keyphrase and you can decide for it to mean "when you draw an Estate, make a Black Market deck out of the Knights pile and win the game", but that's not how it works in actuality since it needs to be consistent with what Trader does with Silvers.

It's consistent with the rules of Dominion that rules on cards override the rules in the rulebook. Wordings and their interpretations across cards are uniform unless there's a special rule in place for that particular card (which is essentially the case for Pirate Ship and Nomad Camp, and used to be the case for Band of Misfits), and the inconsistency comes from the fact that your interpretation requires that special rule.

[Haddock]

It is not a "brand new keyphrase".

We've been over this.  The word "while" is never used above the line on any existing cards.
Therefore we can decide what it should do as long as it is consistent with the usage of the word "while" below the line.  Which our interpretation is.

[Awaclus]

We've been over this.  The word "while" is never used above the line on any existing cards.
Therefore we can decide what it should do as long as it is consistent with the usage of the word "while" below the line.  Which our interpretation is.

It also needs to be consistent with the usage of other effects that set up continuous effects on-play.

[Haddock]

It also needs to be consistent with the usage of other effects that set up continuous effects on-play.

Why?  You agree it's a new keyword (you have to, it's objectively true), so why shouldn't it introduce a new rule? 
The only debate is what that rule should be.  Your rule or our rule.  They're both equally valid.
We're going round in circles here.

[Awaclus]

It also needs to be consistent with the usage of other effects that set up continuous effects on-play.

Why?  You agree it's a new keyword (you have to, it's objectively true), so why shouldn't it introduce a new rule? 
The only debate is what that rule should be.  Your rule or our rule.  They're both equally valid.
We're going round in circles here.

It's objectively not a new keyword. "When you play this" is not a new keyword. "While this is in play" is not a new keyword. A card with "When you play this, while this is in play" needs to work like the existing cards with "when you play this" and "while this is in play". It absolutely should not introduce a new rule.

[GendoIkari]

This is redundant, but our point is that when the other timing is "while this is in play", it makes "when you play this" no longer work the same, because English. "When you play this, stuff is different until the end of turn" is a pretty clear English phrase. "When you play this, while this is in play, stuff is different" is not. It sounds weird and people wouldn't say it. So instead, they wouldn't read the implied "when you play this", and would just play it as if it weren't there.

But it's not supposed to work that way considering how other Dominion cards already work.

I don't disagree. My only point is that readability and ease of making sense of the wordings and the rules would take precedence over technicalities.

[Awaclus]

I don't disagree. My only point is that readability and ease of making sense of the wordings and the rules would take precedence over technicalities.

Which is why the wording isn't used on any Dominion card.

[faust]

This thread should be in Variants and Fan Cards.

[Haddock]

It's objectively not a new keyword. "When you play this" is not a new keyword. "While this is in play" is not a new keyword.

You're not listening. 

My interpretation of what "While this is in play" would mean if used ABOVE the line IS consistent with the current usage of "While this is in play" BELOW the line. 

So I use that interpretation above the line, and since no other card uses "While this is in play" above the line, I can choose freely what it should mean (including overwriting any so-called "implicit text"), as long as I remain consistent with the cards that use it BELOW the line.


I claim that the keyword "While this is in play" overrides the implicit "When you play this" used above the line.  That is a consistent viewpoint, since currently no existing cards demonstrate an instance where "While this is in play" meets an implicit "When you play this". 

[GendoIkari]

This thread should be in Variants and Fan Cards.

And once it's there it can be further dumped into really bad card ideas

At the rate it's going, it could end up in RSP.

[Awaclus]

So I use that interpretation above the line, and since no other card uses "While this is in play" above the line, I can choose freely what it should mean (including overwriting any so-called "implicit text"), as long as I remain consistent with the cards that use it BELOW the line.

No, you can't. You also need to remain consistent with all of the other cards that have "when you play this".

I claim that the keyword "While this is in play" overrides the implicit "When you play this" used above the line.  That is a consistent viewpoint, since currently no existing cards demonstrate an instance where "While this is in play" meets an implicit "When you play this".

It is not a consistent viewpoint, since there are existing cards with "when you play this" and nothing overrides them.

[Haddock]

So I use that interpretation above the line, and since no other card uses "While this is in play" above the line, I can choose freely what it should mean (including overwriting any so-called "implicit text"), as long as I remain consistent with the cards that use it BELOW the line.

No, you can't. You also need to remain consistent with all of the other cards that have "when you play this".

....
I am remaining consistent with those cards.  It only occurs below the line in existing cards and my interpretation is consistent with usage below the line.

I claim that the keyword "While this is in play" overrides the implicit "When you play this" used above the line.  That is a consistent viewpoint, since currently no existing cards demonstrate an instance where "While this is in play" meets an implicit "When you play this".

It is not a consistent viewpoint, since there are existing cards with "when you play this" and nothing overrides them.

There are no existing cards where "when you play this" and "while this is in play" both apply to one effect.  I am simply making the ruling that when those two wordings meet, the explicit wording wins out and destroys the implicit "when you play this".  That is NOT inconsistent, it's simply a ruling to apply to that hypothetical new situation. 

You are choosing to make the other possible ruling, namely that the implicit wording gets prefixed onto the explicit "While this is in play".  That's also a perfectly consistent viewpoint, and I agree that I have no reason to choose my interpretation over yours, they're both equally valid.

[Awaclus]

I am remaining consistent with those cards.  It only occurs below the line in existing cards and my interpretation is consistent with usage below the line.

No, "when you play this" occurs above the line in every existing card. Your interpretation is not consistent with them.

There are no existing cards where "when you play this" and "while this is in play" both apply to one effect.

Altered Highway is not a card where "when you play this" and "while this is in play" both apply to one effect. It's a card where "when you play this" applies to "while this is in play, reduce costs" and "while this is in play" applies to "reduce costs".

I am simply making the ruling that when those two wordings meet, the explicit wording wins out and destroys the implicit "when you play this".  That is NOT inconsistent, it's simply a ruling to apply to that hypothetical new situation.

It is inconsistent, because it does not apply to situations that already exist, such as "when you play this" meeting "this turn".

You are choosing to make the other possible ruling, namely that the implicit wording gets prefixed onto the explicit "While this is in play".  That's also a perfectly consistent viewpoint, and I agree that I have no reason to choose my interpretation over yours, they're both equally valid.

I am not making a ruling, I'm going with the existing rulings.

[Haddock]

Altered Highway is not a card where "when you play this" and "while this is in play" both apply to one effect. It's a card where "when you play this" applies to "while this is in play, reduce costs" and "while this is in play" applies to "reduce costs".

I understand that that is your interpretation, and agree that it is a valid one.  I don't agree that it is the only possible one.

It is inconsistent, because it does not apply to situations that already exist, such as "when you play this" meeting "this turn".

"When you play this" is not in conflict with "this turn".  "When you play this" dictates when the effect starts, "This turn" dictates when it ends.  "While this is in play" dictates both the start and the end, so conflicts with "When you play this".

I am not making a ruling, I'm going with the existing rulings.

There are no existing rulings, since "When you play this" and "While this is in play" have never met on a card. 

[Awaclus]

Altered Highway is not a card where "when you play this" and "while this is in play" both apply to one effect. It's a card where "when you play this" applies to "while this is in play, reduce costs" and "while this is in play" applies to "reduce costs".

I understand that that is your interpretation, and agree that it is a valid one.  I don't agree that it is the only possible one.

It is the only possible one.

It is inconsistent, because it does not apply to situations that already exist, such as "when you play this" meeting "this turn".

"When you play this" is not in conflict with "this turn".  "When you play this" dictates when the effect starts, "This turn" dictates when it ends.  "While this is in play" dictates both the start and the end, so conflicts with "When you play this".

"This turn" also dictates both the start and the end. It starts at the start of the turn, and ends at the start of the next turn.

I am not making a ruling, I'm going with the existing rulings.

There are no existing rulings, since "When you play this" and "While this is in play" have never met on a card.

It doesn't matter that they have never met. They don't care about each other. "When you play this" just cares when you play it, and gives you the effect it gives you when you play it. "While this is in play" just cares when it's in play, and gives you the effect it gives when it's in play. They don't care what the effect is, and the effect doesn't care how it got there.

[Haddock]

"This turn" also dictates both the start and the end. It starts at the start of the turn, and ends at the start of the next turn.

No.  It starts when you play the card................

It doesn't matter that they have never met. They don't care about each other. "When you play this" just cares when you play it, and gives you the effect it gives you when you play it. "While this is in play" just cares when it's in play, and gives you the effect it gives when it's in play. They don't care what the effect is, and the effect doesn't care how it got there.

This is our primary point of disagreement.  I see "While this is in play" as being in direct conflict with "When you play this", so you need a ruling to decide how that brand new construction should play.  It's a new situation and therefore can be ruled one way or the other (Again, not that it matters, THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN.).
You clearly do not see the two as being in conflict with each other.  And that's fine.  But seriously, it's like you're trolling, can you not see where I'm coming from here?  I'd just love for you to say you get where I'm coming from, even if you think it's a stupid place to be coming from.  Then I could finally stop.

[GendoIkari]

There is trivially and objectively more than one possible interpretation, as this entire debate is about which interpretation is correct.

[Awaclus]

"This turn" also dictates both the start and the end. It starts at the start of the turn, and ends at the start of the next turn.

No.  It starts when you play the card................

By what logic "this turn" starts when you play the card? Obviously it had been "this turn" before you played the card, you can't play cards when it's not your turn and playing a card doesn't change whose turn it is.

This is our primary point of disagreement.  I see "While this is in play" as being in direct conflict with "When you play this", so you need a ruling to decide how that brand new construction should play.  It's a new situation and therefore can be ruled one way or the other (Again, not that it matters, THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN.).
You clearly do not see the two as being in conflict with each other.  And that's fine.  But seriously, it's like you're trolling, can you not see where I'm coming from here?  I'd just love for you to say you get where I'm coming from, even if you think it's a stupid place to be coming from.  Then I could finally stop.

No, I don't see how your conclusion could be drawn from the premises that we have.

EDIT: I do see where Gendo is coming from, though. I agree that it would probably apply if Altered Highway was somehow a real card, but I disagree that it also applies to the theoretical Altered Highway which will never be a real card.

[GendoIkari]

"This turn" is shorthand for "from now until the end of turn". "Now" being when you played the card. Otherwise playing bridge would retroactively reduce card costs for the whole turn.