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Author Topic: Royal carriage and "in play cards"  (Read 70014 times)

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skip wooznum

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2015, 08:50:15 pm »
0

That is precisely the issue of contention I guess.

I would argue that the "while in play" is itself a declaration that the effect ends when the card leaves play.

Then why does a Highway still reduce costs when you've played it once, it has left play once, and then you play it again?
Highway, the actual card, has a rule that applies while it's in play. I hope that's clear.

Hypothetical Messed Up Highway For Having Bad Rules Conversations About How Confusing Phrasings That Would Never Exist Should Be Interpreted, with no dividing line, has an implicit "when you play this" on its abilities, like all Action cards have above the line that's there or isn't. "When you play this, while this is in play, cards cost $1 less etc." looks to me like it stops functioning when the card leaves play.
would it function twice if throned and still in play?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2015, 09:38:54 pm »
+12



would it function twice if throned and still in play?

Yes, it would. The cost reduction happens on-play and ends when the card leaves play. If you Throne it, costs get reduced by $2, and then costs go back to normal when it leaves play.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 09:50:22 pm by LastFootnote »
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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2015, 05:29:21 am »
0

That is precisely the issue of contention I guess.

I would argue that the "while in play" is itself a declaration that the effect ends when the card leaves play.

Then why does a Highway still reduce costs when you've played it once, it has left play once, and then you play it again?
Highway, the actual card, has a rule that applies while it's in play. I hope that's clear.

Hypothetical Messed Up Highway For Having Bad Rules Conversations About How Confusing Phrasings That Would Never Exist Should Be Interpreted, with no dividing line, has an implicit "when you play this" on its abilities, like all Action cards have above the line that's there or isn't. "When you play this, while this is in play, cards cost $1 less etc." looks to me like it stops functioning when the card leaves play.

I'm not particularly expecting you to answer this, but why wouldn't it start functioning again when it enters play again, though?
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SCSN

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2015, 07:01:38 am »
+5

That is precisely the issue of contention I guess.

I would argue that the "while in play" is itself a declaration that the effect ends when the card leaves play.

Then why does a Highway still reduce costs when you've played it once, it has left play once, and then you play it again?
Highway, the actual card, has a rule that applies while it's in play. I hope that's clear.

Hypothetical Messed Up Highway For Having Bad Rules Conversations About How Confusing Phrasings That Would Never Exist Should Be Interpreted, with no dividing line, has an implicit "when you play this" on its abilities, like all Action cards have above the line that's there or isn't. "When you play this, while this is in play, cards cost $1 less etc." looks to me like it stops functioning when the card leaves play.

I'm not particularly expecting you to answer this, but why wouldn't it start functioning again when it enters play again, though?

I think you're confusing "while" and "whenever".

"While you're on vacation, I'll pay you $50/day" covers your current/upcoming vacation, and stops once you're back. If you go on vacation again you're on your own unless I make you a new promise.

"Whenever you're on vacation, I'll pay you $50/day" covers all future vacations.

So "while this is in play" is shorthand for "from the next time this enters play, until it leaves it". "Whenever this is in play" would mean "during all future periods where this is in play".
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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2015, 07:18:45 am »
0

I think you're confusing "while" and "whenever".

"While you're on vacation, I'll pay you $50/day" covers your current/upcoming vacation, and stops once you're back. If you go on vacation again you're on your own unless I make you a new promise.

"Whenever you're on vacation, I'll pay you $50/day" covers all future vacations.

So "while this is in play" is shorthand for "from the next time this enters play, until it leaves it". "Whenever this is in play" would mean "during all future periods where this is in play".

Then why does a Highway still reduce costs when you've played it once, it has left play once, and then you play it again?

Also, that's not how it works in Magic and Hearthstone. I know this isn't Magic or Hearthstone, so I wouldn't insist on my conclusion being right based on just that, but normally I would expect words to mean the same thing across different games and I don't see a particular reason to believe that it isn't the case here, other than Donald saying that it isn't (which is a good enough reason, but I just don't get why he's saying that).
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SCSN

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2015, 07:32:19 am »
0

Then why does a Highway still reduce costs when you've played it once, it has left play once, and then you play it again?

It doesn't still reduce costs, it reduces costs again, because you play it again. So in the vacation analogy a new promise is made to you; it isn't that the old promise still holds for your new vacation.

In the Highway case, the new promise is again this:

So "while this is in play" is shorthand for "from the next time this enters play, until it leaves it".

And ends when it leaves play.

Also, that's not how it works in Magic and Hearthstone. I know this isn't Magic or Hearthstone, so I wouldn't insist on my conclusion being right based on just that, but normally I would expect words to mean the same thing across different games

I don't know much about those games, but I do know English quite well, and this is how "while" is commonly used (that is, with an implicit endpoint, unlike "whenever").
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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2015, 08:57:00 am »
0

Then why does a Highway still reduce costs when you've played it once, it has left play once, and then you play it again?

It doesn't still reduce costs, it reduces costs again, because you play it again. So in the vacation analogy a new promise is made to you; it isn't that the old promise still holds for your new vacation.

In the Highway case, the new promise is again this:

So "while this is in play" is shorthand for "from the next time this enters play, until it leaves it".

And ends when it leaves play.

But it's not made when you play it since it's below the horizontal line.

I don't know much about those games, but I do know English quite well, and this is how "while" is commonly used (that is, with an implicit endpoint, unlike "whenever").

In Hearthstone and Magic, "whenever" is used for one-shot effects that trigger when a one-shot requirement is met, and "while" is used for continuous effects that become active when a continuous requirement is met, inactive when it's not, and active when it's met again. "Until" is used for continuous effects that end when the end condition is met and also for one-shot effects that are performed over and over again until the end condition is met. This is also how it would seem to work in Dominion based on the cards that exist and how they actually work.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 09:38:49 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2015, 10:12:19 am »
0

I can't offhand think of any hearthstone cards that use the keyword while for stackable effects, only the charge while you have a weapon guy.
But most cards with text have an implicit "while this minion lives", so OK.  The best analogy for this situation is that I play a stormwind champion, which you Recycle.  When I draw the Stormwind the second time and play him, he doesnt give +2/+2...

Similarly for a hypothetical hs minion that said "while you have a weapon equipped, give it +1 attack".  If you recycled it, playing it again wouldnt give me +2 attack.

If the recycle example isnt adequate, resurrect has the same feel. They are the only cards I can think of that essentially let you play a removed minion again.
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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2015, 02:52:44 pm »
+1

I can't offhand think of any hearthstone cards that use the keyword while for stackable effects, only the charge while you have a weapon guy.
But most cards with text have an implicit "while this minion lives", so OK.  The best analogy for this situation is that I play a stormwind champion, which you Recycle.  When I draw the Stormwind the second time and play him, he doesnt give +2/+2...

Similarly for a hypothetical hs minion that said "while you have a weapon equipped, give it +1 attack".  If you recycled it, playing it again wouldnt give me +2 attack.

If the recycle example isnt adequate, resurrect has the same feel. They are the only cards I can think of that essentially let you play a removed minion again.

What they don't have is the implicit "when you play this"; minions with Battlecry have it explicitly. When a Battlecry minion is Recycled and played again, you do get its Battlecry effect again, and if the Battlecry effect sets up a continuous effect like Abusive Sergeant does, you can have two of them active at the same time (that can't happen with Recycle though because you can't play it on your own minion, but it works with the pandas, for instance).

The charge while you have a weapon guy does gain the charge again if your weapon gets destroyed and then you get a new weapon. Goblin Sapper gets the +4 Attack again if your opponent draws up to 6 or more cards after he has had less than 6 cards after he has had 6 or more cards. Gladiator's Longbow makes your hero Immune every time you attack, not just the first time. Cogmaster and Cogmaster's Wrench have +2 Attack if you get another Mech in play after your last Mech died. Enrage minions get their Enrage benefits if they are healed to full health and then damaged again.

A card with "while you have a weapon equipped, give it +1 attack" would give the weapon infinitely much attack, since "give it +1 attack" is a one-shot effect setting up a permanent effect, and no matter how many times you gave the weapon +1 attack, you would still have the weapon equipped so you would do it again. This is why Spiteful Smith says "it has +2 attack" and works the way it does.

Obviously there is no card in Hearthstone which sets up a while-X effect. There is no such card in Magic either. This is not a coincidence — the very reason why this is the case is that it would work like I described, and that would be all kinds of awful.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 03:03:52 pm by Awaclus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2015, 05:48:42 pm »
+5

I'm not particularly expecting you to answer this, but why wouldn't it start functioning again when it enters play again, though?
It's not looking so great to argue this out, and hey SCSN has stepped up there, hooray.

Again you are asking about a wording a card would never have. What would happen? I would give it a better wording, that's what would happen.
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Donald X.

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #60 on: October 04, 2015, 06:00:06 pm »
+1

But it's not made when you play it since it's below the horizontal line.
srsly dude, be clear about when you're talking about Highway and when you're talking about Hypothetical Messed Up Highway For Having Bad Rules Conversations About How Confusing Phrasings That Would Never Exist Should Be Interpreted.

The text below the line on Highway does not happen when you play it. It's like a rule on a Magic permanent, which has an implicit "while this is in play." For example:



If I play Pearl Medallion, and it gets Disenchanted, and I Regrowth it and play it again, my white spells do not cost 2 less.

Also, that's not how it works in Magic and Hearthstone. I know this isn't Magic or Hearthstone, so I wouldn't insist on my conclusion being right based on just that, but normally I would expect words to mean the same thing across different games and I don't see a particular reason to believe that it isn't the case here, other than Donald saying that it isn't (which is a good enough reason, but I just don't get why he's saying that).
You are talking all sorts of nonsense.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #61 on: October 04, 2015, 06:17:37 pm »
0

I really feel like this has gone on for too long now, and we've turned an intellectual exercise into something silly.

Thanks for stepping in Donald, more than once too! 

Apologies all.
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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2015, 06:21:18 pm »
+2

The text below the line on Highway does not happen when you play it. It's like a rule on a Magic permanent, which has an implicit "while this is in play." For example:

[img]

If I play Pearl Medallion, and it gets Disenchanted, and I Regrowth it and play it again, my white spells do not cost 2 less.

That much is clear. What's not clear is how can "while this is in play" above a dividing line mean "when this enters play, until it leaves play", while "while this is in play" below a dividing line evidently means "at any time this is in play".
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Donald X.

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2015, 06:23:00 pm »
0

That much is clear. What's not clear is how can "while this is in play" above a dividing line mean "when this enters play, until it leaves play", while "while this is in play" below a dividing line evidently means "at any time this is in play".
There's an implicit "when you play this" above the line but not below it.
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Donald X.

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2015, 06:24:07 pm »
+1

I really feel like this has gone on for too long now, and we've turned an intellectual exercise into something silly.

Thanks for stepping in Donald, more than once too! 

Apologies all.
Welcome to the internet!

If only it were that easy to end pointless arguments.
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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2015, 06:28:13 pm »
+2

That much is clear. What's not clear is how can "while this is in play" above a dividing line mean "when this enters play, until it leaves play", while "while this is in play" below a dividing line evidently means "at any time this is in play".
There's an implicit "when you play this" above the line but not below it.

Is there also an implicit "until it leaves play" above the line?
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #66 on: October 04, 2015, 06:52:55 pm »
0

That much is clear. What's not clear is how can "while this is in play" above a dividing line mean "when this enters play, until it leaves play", while "while this is in play" below a dividing line evidently means "at any time this is in play".
There's an implicit "when you play this" above the line but not below it.

Is there also an implicit "until it leaves play" above the line?
Hypothetical Messed Up Highway For Having Bad Rules Conversations About How Confusing Phrasings That Would Never Exist Should Be Interpreted, with no dividing line, has an implicit "when you play this" on its abilities, like all Action cards have above the line that's there or isn't. "When you play this, while this is in play, cards cost $1 less etc." looks to me like it stops functioning when the card leaves play.
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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #67 on: October 04, 2015, 06:56:08 pm »
+2

That much is clear. What's not clear is how can "while this is in play" above a dividing line mean "when this enters play, until it leaves play", while "while this is in play" below a dividing line evidently means "at any time this is in play".
There's an implicit "when you play this" above the line but not below it.

Is there also an implicit "until it leaves play" above the line?
Hypothetical Messed Up Highway For Having Bad Rules Conversations About How Confusing Phrasings That Would Never Exist Should Be Interpreted, with no dividing line, has an implicit "when you play this" on its abilities, like all Action cards have above the line that's there or isn't. "When you play this, while this is in play, cards cost $1 less etc." looks to me like it stops functioning when the card leaves play.

So it's the "when you play this" that has an implicit "until it leaves play"? That doesn't seem very consistent with how a bunch of cards work with Procession.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #68 on: October 04, 2015, 07:08:35 pm »
0

So it's the "when you play this" that has an implicit "until it leaves play"? That doesn't seem very consistent with how a bunch of cards work with Procession.

Again you are asking about a wording a card would never have. What would happen? I would give it a better wording, that's what would happen.

You are talking all sorts of nonsense.
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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #69 on: October 04, 2015, 07:38:25 pm »
+2

So it's the "when you play this" that has an implicit "until it leaves play"? That doesn't seem very consistent with how a bunch of cards work with Procession.

Again you are asking about a wording a card would never have. What would happen? I would give it a better wording, that's what would happen.

You are talking all sorts of nonsense.

I also understand why you don't necessarily want to participate in the argument. I don't understand why you would want to take a half-assed stance before refusing to explain it while insisting that it's true.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2015, 08:07:36 pm »
+1

I also understand why you don't necessarily want to participate in the argument. I don't understand why you would want to take a half-assed stance before refusing to explain it while insisting that it's true.
I have not taken a half-assed stance. You will simply keep attributing false things to me as long as I keep discussing it with you. I knew better, I tried to answer your questions anyway, it's not worth more time.

I have also not refused to explain things. Things have been explained to you. There's a thread here; maybe you could re-read it, dwell on it, see if there is a moment of clarity for you.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #71 on: October 04, 2015, 08:44:31 pm »
+3

I have not taken a half-assed stance.

You did:

"When you play this, while this is in play, cards cost $1 less etc." looks to me like it stops functioning when the card leaves play.

I have also not refused to explain things.

You did:

Again you are asking about a wording a card would never have. What would happen? I would give it a better wording, that's what would happen.

You are talking all sorts of nonsense.

Things have been explained to you. There's a thread here; maybe you could re-read it, dwell on it, see if there is a moment of clarity for you.

Nobody has explained where the implicit "stops functioning when the card leaves play" kicks in. Clearly that's something that only applies to stuff above the dividing line, because the real Highway's below-the-line ability doesn't stop functioning the first time the Highway leaves play. Because you still get the cost reduction from a Processioned Bridge, it doesn't seem to apply to all of the stuff above the dividing line either, or all of the stuff that sets up continuous effects, or even all of the cost-reduction effects, so I don't really see anything in common with how the actual game works. Of course it's possible for you to add a special rule that "when you play this, while this is in play" really means "when you play this, while this is in play, stops functioning when the card leaves play", but that's a pretty weird thing to do, since not only does it make no sense, it also makes no difference.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2015, 10:59:15 pm »
0

Nobody has explained where the implicit "stops functioning when the card leaves play" kicks in. Clearly that's something that only applies to stuff above the dividing line, because the real Highway's below-the-line ability doesn't stop functioning the first time the Highway leaves play. Because you still get the cost reduction from a Processioned Bridge, it doesn't seem to apply to all of the stuff above the dividing line either, or all of the stuff that sets up continuous effects, or even all of the cost-reduction effects, so I don't really see anything in common with how the actual game works. Of course it's possible for you to add a special rule that "when you play this, while this is in play" really means "when you play this, while this is in play, stops functioning when the card leaves play", but that's a pretty weird thing to do, since not only does it make no sense, it also makes no difference.
I don't have a new way to explain stuff you didn't understand the first time.

There will be no special rule for this phrasing a card will never have.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2015, 11:01:22 pm »
+1

I don't have a new way to explain stuff I never explained in the first place.

There will be no special rule for this phrasing a card will never have.

I don't think there can be a way to explain it other than a special rule, since it contradicts the existing rules.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #74 on: October 05, 2015, 01:13:47 am »
+3

because the real Highway's below-the-line ability doesn't stop functioning the first time the Highway leaves play

Why do you say this? When highway leaves play, cards stop being reduced from that highway. What's the meaning behind saying that it still "functions"? It's not doing anything, how is that functioning? The part that has an implicit "until this leaves play" is the "while this is in play". "While this is in play" is synonymous with "from the time this enters play until the time it leaves play".
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