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Author Topic: Royal carriage and "in play cards"  (Read 70015 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2015, 04:26:13 pm »
+1

Exactly. Scheme is "At the start of Clean-up this turn" and Herbalist is "When you discard this from play". Herbalist's effect would still happen even if you somehow got it into play without playing it. Scheme's effect happens once per time you played it that turn.

Yeah, and the reason why that happens is that Herbalist has a dividing line.

The thing is, Dominion is not Magic. Card wordings are more focused on readability/ease of understanding than they are on the intricacy of all the rules. Cards are never errata'd if a better wording is found. You need to read each card literally as a human should read it; not overthinking the possible logical implications.

For example, the instruction at the bottom of Embargo. Everyone understood just fine that it was defining what an Embargo token does; people don't think that the fact that the instruction is written on 10 different card means that the instruction triggers 10 times. Same with Duchess. Then you have cards like Envoy which say "draw", even though the cards aren't actually being "drawn" (the -1 card token doesn't affect it). Then you have Pirate Ship, which says "take a coin token"; and even though that has actually caused confusion among some people, it's just how it is.

For Highway, yes, if you removed the line then you could make the technical argument that suddenly you have the effect "while this is in play...."; and that there's no reason that effect should ever go away. But nobody would actually think that if they picked up the game and saw Highway without a line. There's no cards in Dominion that set up a permanent effect for the rest of the game (there's things like Prince, which set up "at the start of each of your turns"; but that's something that specifically triggers repeatedly; not an ongoing effect).

Point being, even if Awaclus is technically correct; the game would still function just fine if Highway didn't have that line. The line is intended to add clarity, it's not absolutely required to make the game work.

There is some truth to this, but it's also not the entire truth. It's true that readability and ease of understanding are crucial factors, and it's also true that cards generally do what they're intended to do even though you could argue that it does something else based on the wording. However, the wordings and the rulings do always follow the same logic every time (with possibly the exception of Pirate Ship/coin tokens, but that's definitely a flaw).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2015, 04:29:11 pm »
0

There's no cards in Dominion that set up a permanent effect for the rest of the game

Champion.

Huh, I thought Champion was a "while this is in play", but I'm wrong. So I guess if you throne a champion, then every action gives you +2 actions? And attacks don't affect you twice?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2015, 04:32:11 pm »
+1

For Highway, yes, if you removed the line then you could make the technical argument that suddenly you have the effect "while this is in play...."; and that there's no reason that effect should ever go away. But nobody would actually think that if they picked up the game and saw Highway without a line. There's no cards in Dominion that set up a permanent effect for the rest of the game (there's things like Prince, which set up "at the start of each of your turns"; but that's something that specifically triggers repeatedly; not an ongoing effect).

The problem is that, without the ruling on the meaning of a horizontal line, it actually is confusing.  Why is Scheme different from Highway when throned?  If there were no line on Highway, I'm sure we could all agree it's silly that it would set up a permanent effect for the rest of the game (though following the literal wording and rules, that is what would happen).  But we would still get confused about what happens when it is throned.  Scheme only works when throned because there is no line on it; if there were not lines on cards, we would have to assume that Scheme and Highway behave the same way when throned. 

I disagree, I think "while this is in play" is clear enough. The card can only be in play once.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2015, 04:37:15 pm »
+2

I have no idea where this notion came from that a horizontal line has any meaning whatsoever in Dominion. Can someone cite a rule or ruling? I quite frankly think you're making this "horizontal line standard" up.

"While this is in play" is unambiguous - is this physical card in play? If so, do the thing. It doesn't matter how many times the card was played. This is corroborated by the official rules which refer to the wording "while this is in play" - not the horizontal line.

If for some reason there was no horizontal line, "while this is in play" would not change meaning. The line is an aesthetic choice to more easily distinguish between on play effects and other card effects or rules.
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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2015, 04:59:53 pm »
+2

I disagree, I think "while this is in play" is clear enough. The card can only be in play once.

It can also be "at the start of clean-up this turn" once. It doesn't prevent multiple things happening as a result of that one thing happening once.

"While this is in play" is unambiguous - is this physical card in play? If so, do the thing. It doesn't matter how many times the card was played.

Indeed. And if there are multiple "While this is in play" effects, you do all of them if the physical card is in play. And there are multiple "While this is in play" effects when you Throne a card whose on-play effect sets up a "While this is in play" effect.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2015, 05:02:12 pm »
+1

I don't see how you could think I'm making it up, because it's clear based on the current rulings that it makes a difference.  But here is Donald X. on the topic: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8150227#8150227

Quote
By default, text on cards happens when you play them. It's true that there's a difference between "right now, set something up to happen later" and "at a certain time which from your perspective when you first see this will be in the future, do something." The dividing line lets you know that some stuff doesn't happen when you play the card (except it's missing on Harem, and the German version of Seaside puts it on duration cards even though they are the former case). Scheme does something when you play it, where that thing is to set up something to happen later. Similarly Bridge does something when you play it, but Highway does something while it's in play.

You couldn't just add a line to Scheme. Then the bottom half would have nothing specifying its scope - it could apply from the start of the game, with no Schemes ever bought or played. It would have to be like, "At the start of Clean-up, if this is in play, ..." Herbalist limits its scope by requiring itself to be discarded.

I don't think the dividing line is in the rules anywhere, but I think the FAQs are clear for all of the cards with them. The dividing line should be in the rules; I don't deny it.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2015, 05:04:36 pm »
+10

I have no idea where this notion came from that a horizontal line has any meaning whatsoever in Dominion. Can someone cite a rule or ruling? I quite frankly think you're making this "horizontal line standard" up.
The Adventures rulebook has it:

Quote
Some cards have a dividing line on them. This separates things that happen at different times. When a card is played, it only does the effects listed above the line; text below the line happens at another time, indicated on each such card.
Someday I will rewrite the main rulebook and it will include that.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2015, 05:11:54 pm »
0

Indeed. And if there are multiple "While this is in play" effects, you do all of them if the physical card is in play. And there are multiple "While this is in play" effects when you Throne a card whose on-play effect sets up a "While this is in play" effect.

Yes. Imagine the following card:

Turnpike
Action - $5

+1 Card
+1 Action
____________

While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

If one of these is played (and stays in play), how much does it reduce costs? By $2, because there are 2 instances of the descriptive statement.

Also, why would anyone interpret "while this is in play" to mean "for the rest of the game, at any time that this is in play" instead of the more sensible and trackable "until this leaves play"?

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2015, 05:12:07 pm »
+1

I have no idea where this notion came from that a horizontal line has any meaning whatsoever in Dominion. Can someone cite a rule or ruling? I quite frankly think you're making this "horizontal line standard" up.
The Adventures rulebook has it:

Quote
Some cards have a dividing line on them. This separates things that happen at different times. When a card is played, it only does the effects listed above the line; text below the line happens at another time, indicated on each such card.
Someday I will rewrite the main rulebook and it will include that.

Thanks, hadn't read that before! And when the rulebook came out early I swore I read every word  ::)

Quote
Indeed. And if there are multiple "While this is in play" effects, you do all of them if the physical card is in play. And there are multiple "While this is in play" effects when you Throne a card whose on-play effect sets up a "While this is in play" effect.

"While this is in play" effects aren't set up on play, though. They occur passively. If it was an effect set up on-play conditional on the card being in play, the effect would read "if this is in play", not "while this is in play".

Quote
It can also be "at the start of clean-up this turn" once. It doesn't prevent multiple things happening as a result of that one thing happening once.
That's totally different. At the start of clean up, the effect happens. Mulitple effects can happen at once. While this is in play is a state that is true while the card is in play. There is no second card. Where does the second instance of the effect come from?
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Awaclus

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2015, 05:27:23 pm »
+2

Also, why would anyone interpret "while this is in play" to mean "for the rest of the game, at any time that this is in play" instead of the more sensible and trackable "until this leaves play"?

Because that's what it means. A normal Highway does make cards cost $1 less for the rest of the game, at any time it is in play. It does not stop reducing costs after the first time it has left play. If you want to have your effect last until a card leaves play, then you should probably put "until this leaves play" on the card instead of "while this is in play".

"While this is in play" effects aren't set up on play, though. They occur passively. If it was an effect set up on-play conditional on the card being in play, the effect would read "if this is in play", not "while this is in play".

Effects that are a part of the card's on-play effect (i.e. above the dividing line, or everything if it doesn't have a dividing line) are set up on play. Effects that are below the dividing line occur passively. "If this is in play" and "While this is in play" are exactly the same thing.

Quote
It can also be "at the start of clean-up this turn" once. It doesn't prevent multiple things happening as a result of that one thing happening once.
That's totally different. At the start of clean up, the effect happens. Mulitple effects can happen at once. While this is in play is a state that is true while the card is in play. There is no second card. Where does the second instance of the effect come from?

The second instance of the effect comes from the second time the card's on-play effect sets it up when you play it twice.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 05:33:07 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2015, 07:33:41 pm »
0

I have no idea where this notion came from that a horizontal line has any meaning whatsoever in Dominion. Can someone cite a rule or ruling? I quite frankly think you're making this "horizontal line standard" up.
The Adventures rulebook has it:

Quote
Some cards have a dividing line on them. This separates things that happen at different times. When a card is played, it only does the effects listed above the line; text below the line happens at another time, indicated on each such card.
Someday I will rewrite the main rulebook and it will include that.

Thanks, hadn't read that before! And when the rulebook came out early I swore I read every word  ::)

Quote
Indeed. And if there are multiple "While this is in play" effects, you do all of them if the physical card is in play. And there are multiple "While this is in play" effects when you Throne a card whose on-play effect sets up a "While this is in play" effect.

"While this is in play" effects aren't set up on play, though. They occur passively. If it was an effect set up on-play conditional on the card being in play, the effect would read "if this is in play", not "while this is in play".

Quote
It can also be "at the start of clean-up this turn" once. It doesn't prevent multiple things happening as a result of that one thing happening once.
That's totally different. At the start of clean up, the effect happens. Mulitple effects can happen at once. While this is in play is a state that is true while the card is in play. There is no second card. Where does the second instance of the effect come from?
Huh, can't really argue with that. I really didn't think there was an official ruling on that because all the below-the-line effects are worded like passive effects, whereas things above the line are worded as a step-by-step instruction set.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2015, 01:30:32 pm »
+1

So.... should I make a wiki page about dividing lines?
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2015, 02:58:32 pm »
+5

There's no cards in Dominion that set up a permanent effect for the rest of the game

Champion.

Huh, I thought Champion was a "while this is in play", but I'm wrong. So I guess if you throne a champion, then every action gives you +2 actions? And attacks don't affect you twice?

Damn, there goes my Strongman Militia.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2015, 07:42:11 pm »
+4

There's no cards in Dominion that set up a permanent effect for the rest of the game

Champion.

Huh, I thought Champion was a "while this is in play", but I'm wrong. So I guess if you throne a champion, then every action gives you +2 actions? And attacks don't affect you twice?

Damn, there goes my Strongman Militia.
depends on how you define strongman though. Uos would disagree.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2015, 05:30:31 am »
0

I can see both arguments here, and while I don't want to continue it after DXV has made it fairly final, I still think the while in play argument is interesting.

Fundamentally the question is "what would happen if Highway (say) had its while in play effect above the line?"

I would argue that by Throning it, this happens.
1) I play Throne Room
2) I choose to play Highway twice.  It enters play.
3) I get +1 Card +1 Action, and Highway is in play, so all cards decrease in cost by 1.
4) Throne Room continues, I must play Highway again.
5) I pick up Highway (OK noone ever actually does this, but it's how I've always imagined Throne Room is kinda meant to work - it's how Androminion does it for instance), in order to play it again.
5a) Highway has left play; all cards increase in cost by 1.
6) I play Highway again.  It reenters play. 
7) +1 Card +1 Action, Highway is in play, all cards decrease in cost by 1.

Overall effect: +2 Cards +2 Actions, all cards decreased in cost by 1.

I guess the argument is whether step 5 happens.  If the Highway never leaves play in between playings of it, then the first effect never gets cancelled out, so the effects would stack without a dividing line. 
I'm sure someone will tell me whether I'm right to think that cards leave play for an instant in between each playing by Throne Room and variants.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 05:32:13 am by Haddock »
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2015, 08:22:36 am »
+1

5) I pick up Highway (OK noone ever actually does this, but it's how I've always imagined Throne Room is kinda meant to work - it's how Androminion does it for instance), in order to play it again.
5a) Highway has left play; all cards increase in cost by 1.

I don't think this can work; if it would work like that, if I throne a Feast, I would not be able to "pick it up" after the first play and therefore could not play it again.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2015, 10:12:22 am »
+5

When you throne a card, I'm pretty sure it never leaves play. If it did leave play, then when you throne a BoM, you should be able to choose a different card for BoM to copy the second time you play it, because it left play and is now in play again.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2015, 04:24:30 am »
0

I would argue that by Throning it, this happens.
1) I play Throne Room
2) I choose to play Highway twice.  It enters play.
3) I get +1 Card +1 Action, and Highway is in play, so all cards decrease in cost by 1.
4) Throne Room continues, I must play Highway again.
5) I pick up Highway (OK noone ever actually does this, but it's how I've always imagined Throne Room is kinda meant to work - it's how Androminion does it for instance), in order to play it again.
5a) Highway has left play; all cards increase in cost by 1.
6) I play Highway again.  It reenters play. 
7) +1 Card +1 Action, Highway is in play, all cards decrease in cost by 1.

Even if step 5 worked like that (it doesn't), at step 7, all cards would decrease in cost by 2 (assuming you haven't played that particular Highway earlier during the game).
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2015, 09:05:32 am »
0

When you throne a card, I'm pretty sure it never leaves play. If it did leave play, then when you throne a BoM, you should be able to choose a different card for BoM to copy the second time you play it, because it left play and is now in play again.
Have I been misunderstanding how throne-bom works this whole time? Think ive never actually done it, but I always thought you could change between the two.

Even if step 5 worked like that (it doesn't), at step 7, all cards would decrease in cost by 2 (assuming you haven't played that particular Highway earlier during the game).
I concede that I may well be misunderstanding step 5. But you'll need to explain to me your reasoning about step 7.

I don't think this can work; if it would work like that, if I throne a Feast, I would not be able to "pick it up" after the first play and therefore could not play it again.
I find that fairly convincing, thankyou.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2015, 10:17:08 am »
0

When you throne a card, I'm pretty sure it never leaves play. If it did leave play, then when you throne a BoM, you should be able to choose a different card for BoM to copy the second time you play it, because it left play and is now in play again.
Have I been misunderstanding how throne-bom works this whole time? Think ive never actually done it, but I always thought you could change between the two.

You can't.
Quote
Even if step 5 worked like that (it doesn't), at step 7, all cards would decrease in cost by 2 (assuming you haven't played that particular Highway earlier during the game).
I concede that I may well be misunderstanding step 5. But you'll need to explain to me your reasoning about step 7.

I already have:

Indeed. And if there are multiple "While this is in play" effects, you do all of them if the physical card is in play. And there are multiple "While this is in play" effects when you Throne a card whose on-play effect sets up a "While this is in play" effect.

because "While this is in play" effects are continuous, so you get another one of those continuous effects every time you play it because that's its on-play effect, and then they build up.--


It's not that a check is being performed twice with Throned Highway Without Horizontal Lines, it's that a check is being performed continuously, for two different instances of the effect. The card is in play, so the check returns true for both instances.

Also, why would anyone interpret "while this is in play" to mean "for the rest of the game, at any time that this is in play" instead of the more sensible and trackable "until this leaves play"?

Because that's what it means. A normal Highway does make cards cost $1 less for the rest of the game, at any time it is in play. It does not stop reducing costs after the first time it has left play. If you want to have your effect last until a card leaves play, then you should probably put "until this leaves play" on the card instead of "while this is in play".

"While this is in play" effects aren't set up on play, though. They occur passively. If it was an effect set up on-play conditional on the card being in play, the effect would read "if this is in play", not "while this is in play".

Effects that are a part of the card's on-play effect (i.e. above the dividing line, or everything if it doesn't have a dividing line) are set up on play. Effects that are below the dividing line occur passively. "If this is in play" and "While this is in play" are exactly the same thing.

Quote
It can also be "at the start of clean-up this turn" once. It doesn't prevent multiple things happening as a result of that one thing happening once.
That's totally different. At the start of clean up, the effect happens. Mulitple effects can happen at once. While this is in play is a state that is true while the card is in play. There is no second card. Where does the second instance of the effect come from?

The second instance of the effect comes from the second time the card's on-play effect sets it up when you play it twice.
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Haddock

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2015, 01:42:59 pm »
0

Those arguments all imply that you think the effect is permanent, regardless of whether the card has left play at any point.

I can only conclude that, without the line, you would conclude that the effect carries over across multiple turns. (whenever you play a particular highway, it counts all previous instances of its effect). Is that what you would conclude? Interesting. You may well be right, I just find it unintuitive. To me, the effect disappears when the card leaves play.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2015, 02:57:06 pm »
+1

Those arguments all imply that you think the effect is permanent, regardless of whether the card has left play at any point.

I can only conclude that, without the line, you would conclude that the effect carries over across multiple turns. (whenever you play a particular highway, it counts all previous instances of its effect). Is that what you would conclude? Interesting. You may well be right, I just find it unintuitive. To me, the effect disappears when the card leaves play.

Yes, the effect carries over across the rest of the game since it doesn't specify when it ends. Why would the effect disappear when the card leaves play? It's not like Bridge's effect disappears when it leaves play (if it leaves play before the turn is over due to Procession, that is) either.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 02:58:07 pm by Awaclus »
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2015, 04:42:03 pm »
+2

That is precisely the issue of contention I guess.

I would argue that the "while in play" is itself a declaration that the effect ends when the card leaves play.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2015, 04:56:46 pm »
+1

That is precisely the issue of contention I guess.

I would argue that the "while in play" is itself a declaration that the effect ends when the card leaves play.

Then why does a Highway still reduce costs when you've played it once, it has left play once, and then you play it again?
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2015, 05:03:59 pm »
+5

That is precisely the issue of contention I guess.

I would argue that the "while in play" is itself a declaration that the effect ends when the card leaves play.

Then why does a Highway still reduce costs when you've played it once, it has left play once, and then you play it again?
Highway, the actual card, has a rule that applies while it's in play. I hope that's clear.

Hypothetical Messed Up Highway For Having Bad Rules Conversations About How Confusing Phrasings That Would Never Exist Should Be Interpreted, with no dividing line, has an implicit "when you play this" on its abilities, like all Action cards have above the line that's there or isn't. "When you play this, while this is in play, cards cost $1 less etc." looks to me like it stops functioning when the card leaves play.
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