Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10  All

Author Topic: Royal carriage and "in play cards"  (Read 38600 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hydrad

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
  • Shuffle iT Username: Hidrad
  • Respect: +109
    • View Profile
Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« on: September 29, 2015, 04:10:42 pm »
0

So I know with throne room and cards like king court if you have a goons or highway you don't get the in play bonus many times since only one is in play.

My question is does royal carriage work like that also? I feel like It should as other wise it makes some games super broken. (Example I just had a goons game where I bought one goons and just waited to draw it then used all my carriages on it for like a easy 60+ point hand)

So obviously I think it shouldn't do that but since it say replay the card I'm wondering if the Royal carriage kinda becomes the card like band of misfits. Of if the goons just gets played twice like other doublers.
Logged
For anyone else, such a statement would be a scum tell.  For Hydrad, it's simply a tell that you're reading something from Hydrad.

drsteelhammer

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1526
  • Shuffle iT Username: drsteelhammer
  • Respect: +1462
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2015, 04:36:21 pm »
+1

Goons stays "in play" once, so Royal Carriage works the same the rest of the throne room family.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

There is no bad shuffle that can not be surmounted by scorn.

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2015, 04:37:23 pm »
+1

It's the same as with Throne Room and King's Court; Royal Carriage doesn't count as a copy of the card. You only get the while-in-play effects once.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7914
  • Respect: +8721
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2015, 04:45:13 pm »
0

It's the same.... just read the cards completely literally... "while this is in play". "This" can only ever be "in play" once at the same time. It's impossible physically for the same card to be "in play" twice.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Erick648

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 140
  • Respect: +447
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2015, 10:59:35 pm »
+1

Throne Room plays a card twice.  Royal Carriage takes a card you've already played and played it again.  Both wind up with only one copy of the target card in play.

It can be easy to think of Royal Carriage as a "mimic" card, like Band of Misfits, but it isn't (at least, no more than Throne Room).  It doesn't mimic a card you have in play (though in practice it can feel like that); it simply replays the card you already played.  The difference is the difference between "this is that card" (Band of Misfits), which creates a new (temporary) copy of the target card, and "play that card multiple times" (Throne variants) which gets additional uses out of the existing copy of the target card.

Incidentally, the broken Goons strategy you mentioned does work with Bridge (although the number of Royal Carriages required keeps it from being broken, IMO).
Logged
Duplicate duplicates Duplicates duplicate Duplicates duplicate.

Rene Descartes taught me to believe in myself.

scott_pilgrim

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1029
  • Respect: +1998
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2015, 01:06:30 am »
+6

Everyone has stated the correct conclusion, but I think the reasoning is wrong for all of their explanations.

The "while in play" wording has nothing to do with why the effect does or doesn't get "doubled".  Whether the effect gets doubled is determined by whether the effect is below a line.  You can see this by comparing Scheme and Goons.  Scheme lets you put back two cards when throned (or royal carriaged, etc.), because its "At the start of clean-up..." part is not below a line; therefore, it is something that happens when the card is played (when played, it sets up an event which becomes relevant at clean-up).  Goons, on the other hand, has its +VP effect below a line; therefore, it is just a general rule of Dominion that you are being reminded of by the card.  When you throne a Goons, all of the stuff above the line is stuff that happens when you play the card; since you're playing Goons twice, all of that stuff happens twice.  All of the stuff below the line is stuff that always happens no matter what.  While Goons is in play, you get +1 VP per card you buy.  Throning it doesn't make that rule any more or less true.  Playing Royal Carriage on it provides no extra benefit; there's still only one copy of Goons in play.

Now if there were a card called Super Goons, which is identical to Goons, but without the horizontal line on it, then calling Royal Carriage on it, or throning it, would get you the extra VP.  When you play Super Goons, it sets up the event "while this is in play, +1 VP when you buy a card", so when you play it again, it sets up that event again.  When you buy a card, you check to see if Super Goons is in play, and (assuming it is) you resolve the event "while this is in play, +1 VP when you buy a card" twice, since you set it up twice.

If you're ever confused about how to treat Royal Carriage replaying a card, it should always come out the same as if you had throned it*; both Royal Carriage and Throne Room just play the card an extra time, while leaving only one copy of it in play.

*And now by stating this, I have inadvertently created an edge case puzzle.
Logged

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2962
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3785
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2015, 01:12:14 am »
+4

If you're ever confused about how to treat Royal Carriage replaying a card, it should always come out the same as if you had throned it*

*And now by stating this, I have inadvertently created an edge case puzzle.

Throne Room–Conspirator at the beginning of a turn ends up nonterminal; Conspirator–Royal Carriage doesn't.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2311
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2015, 08:11:10 am »
+2

@scott-pilgrim I think it's the opposite. The horizontal line is purely convention and has nothing to do with the literal interpretation of the card. You've mixed correlation with causation. I don't think the rules ever state something like "effects below the line do not occur on play". " While in play" means while the card is in play. Why would a horizontal line change the meaning of it?

It's true that effects below the line are never on play effects, but the wording of all those effects make it possible to know that even if the line wasn't there. Both the wording of below-line effects like "While in play" and the horizontal line itself suggest the effect cannot be throned and to date they've never defied that rule. There are no grounds to say the wording or the horizontal line is more important to the card's behaviour than the other. The wording happens to give a reason for why the effect cannot be throned that can be understood. The horizontal line is just a hard-and-fast rule that might confuse you if you don't understand it and when when it applies. Throne room variants don't have a special tag or anything after all.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 08:12:15 am by markusin »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2015, 08:41:18 am »
+2

@scott-pilgrim I think it's the opposite. The horizontal line is purely convention and has nothing to do with the literal interpretation of the card. You've mixed correlation with causation. I don't think the rules ever state something like "effects below the line do not occur on play". " While in play" means while the card is in play. Why would a horizontal line change the meaning of it?

It's true that effects below the line are never on play effects, but the wording of all those effects make it possible to know that even if the line wasn't there. Both the wording of below-line effects like "While in play" and the horizontal line itself suggest the effect cannot be throned and to date they've never defied that rule. There are no grounds to say the wording or the horizontal line is more important to the card's behaviour than the other. The wording happens to give a reason for why the effect cannot be throned that can be understood. The horizontal line is just a hard-and-fast rule that might confuse you if you don't understand it and when when it applies. Throne room variants don't have a special tag or anything after all.

No, I'm pretty sure he's right. "While in play" does mean while the card is in play, but everything in the absence of a horizontal line or above it has an implied "when you play this", so if Highway didn't have the horizontal line, it would essentially be this:

"When you play this, +1 card, +1 action and while this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0."

And if you Throned it, you would get the following effects:

+1 card
+1 action
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.
+1 card
+1 action
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

Since the cost reduction effect is below a horizontal line, it is not a part of the card's on-play effect, which is why you won't get it twice. Actually, if it didn't have the horizontal line, every time you played that Highway, you would get a permanent "while this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0" effect in addition to the ones that you already had from playing the same Highway before, which would be ridiculously powerful and impossible to track.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 08:45:47 am by Awaclus »
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2311
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2015, 10:18:41 am »
0

@scott-pilgrim I think it's the opposite. The horizontal line is purely convention and has nothing to do with the literal interpretation of the card. You've mixed correlation with causation. I don't think the rules ever state something like "effects below the line do not occur on play". " While in play" means while the card is in play. Why would a horizontal line change the meaning of it?

It's true that effects below the line are never on play effects, but the wording of all those effects make it possible to know that even if the line wasn't there. Both the wording of below-line effects like "While in play" and the horizontal line itself suggest the effect cannot be throned and to date they've never defied that rule. There are no grounds to say the wording or the horizontal line is more important to the card's behaviour than the other. The wording happens to give a reason for why the effect cannot be throned that can be understood. The horizontal line is just a hard-and-fast rule that might confuse you if you don't understand it and when when it applies. Throne room variants don't have a special tag or anything after all.

No, I'm pretty sure he's right. "While in play" does mean while the card is in play, but everything in the absence of a horizontal line or above it has an implied "when you play this", so if Highway didn't have the horizontal line, it would essentially be this:

"When you play this, +1 card, +1 action and while this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0."

And if you Throned it, you would get the following effects:

+1 card
+1 action
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.
+1 card
+1 action
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0.

Since the cost reduction effect is below a horizontal line, it is not a part of the card's on-play effect, which is why you won't get it twice. Actually, if it didn't have the horizontal line, every time you played that Highway, you would get a permanent "while this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0" effect in addition to the ones that you already had from playing the same Highway before, which would be ridiculously powerful and impossible to track.
"If" conditionals like in Outpost are also above the line. Without the horizontal line, "While in play" could be shorthand for "if you play this when it wasn't already in play".
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2015, 10:37:01 am »
+1

"If" conditionals like in Outpost are also above the line. Without the horizontal line, "While in play" could be shorthand for "if you play this when it wasn't already in play".

I'm not sure what you mean. There is no "If" conditional in Outpost; all Outpost does is setting up a couple of things that happen later as a part of its on-play effect.

"While in play" is not shorthand for "if you play this when it wasn't already in play", it just means that the continuous effect described on that card after the "while in play" is effective whenever and only as long as the card is in play.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2311
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2015, 12:05:30 pm »
+2

"If" conditionals like in Outpost are also above the line. Without the horizontal line, "While in play" could be shorthand for "if you play this when it wasn't already in play".

I'm not sure what you mean. There is no "If" conditional in Outpost; all Outpost does is setting up a couple of things that happen later as a part of its on-play effect.

"While in play" is not shorthand for "if you play this when it wasn't already in play", it just means that the continuous effect described on that card after the "while in play" is effective whenever and only as long as the card is in play.
I must have mixed Outpost with another card with "if", but it has the no-consecutive-turns conditional that prevents you from getting 2 extra turns if played twice.

I'm saying a game designer could have designed while-in-play to have the meaning of only working once per physical card even if it wasn't separated by a line.

Okay, so it's true that all affects that are not below the horizontal line do not get considered again if the card is played again with a Throne room variant, though I don't know if this is explicitly mentioned anywhere in the rules/FAQ. That does not mean all effects above the line give the bonus again when Throned. You don't get +6 Actions when playing Crossroads with Throne Room. It all depends on how the words themselves are interpreted. I'm saying that While-in-play effects, even if above the line, may not be Throned able depending on the rules put forth by the game designers.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2311
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2015, 12:30:59 pm »
0

Okay you know what I'm just confusing myself here and everyone else. Basically, I think that the only thing keeping a "When you play this" effect from being found below the horizontal line is convention or an unspoken rule. I don't believe that effects below the horizontal line should be ignored for Throne Room variants just because they are below the line. That said, every currently published card with horizontal lines has effects below the line that are not affected by Throne Room.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2015, 12:56:07 pm »
+1

Okay, so it's true that all affects that are not below the horizontal line do not get considered again if the card is played again with a Throne room variant, though I don't know if this is explicitly mentioned anywhere in the rules/FAQ. That does not mean all effects above the line give the bonus again when Throned. You don't get +6 Actions when playing Crossroads with Throne Room. It all depends on how the words themselves are interpreted. I'm saying that While-in-play effects, even if above the line, may not be Throned able depending on the rules put forth by the game designers.

But all effects above the line do give the bonus again when Throned. You do get "+3 actions if this is the first time you played a Crossroads this turn" twice. The second time you get that effect, you don't get the actions though because it's no longer the first time you're playing it.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2311
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2015, 01:42:24 pm »
0

Okay, so it's true that all affects that are not below the horizontal line do not get considered again if the card is played again with a Throne room variant, though I don't know if this is explicitly mentioned anywhere in the rules/FAQ. That does not mean all effects above the line give the bonus again when Throned. You don't get +6 Actions when playing Crossroads with Throne Room. It all depends on how the words themselves are interpreted. I'm saying that While-in-play effects, even if above the line, may not be Throned able depending on the rules put forth by the game designers.

But all effects above the line do give the bonus again when Throned. You do get "+3 actions if this is the first time you played a Crossroads this turn" twice. The second time you get that effect, you don't get the actions though because it's no longer the first time you're playing it.
You follow the instructions twice, but you don't necessarily get the same benefits the second time that you did the first time, in this case +3 Actions.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2015, 01:54:52 pm »
0

You follow the instructions twice, but you don't necessarily get the same benefits the second time that you did the first time, in this case +3 Actions.

Yeah, because the instructions give you different benefits depending on the situation, and the situation has changed after you played the card for the first time. That's what the Highway without the horizontal line would do, too; the first time you get the "While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0", it does exactly that and then Poor House costs $0 and Silver costs $2, and the second time you get the "While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0", it does exactly that again and then Silver costs $1 but Poor House's cost is unaffected this time.

That's also what happens when you Throne a Smithy with 3 cards left in your deck — the first time you play the Smithy, it gives you +3 cards, and the second time you play the Smithy, you still get the "+3 cards" effect but it just doesn't do anything now.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 01:56:24 pm by Awaclus »
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2311
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2015, 02:29:43 pm »
+1

You follow the instructions twice, but you don't necessarily get the same benefits the second time that you did the first time, in this case +3 Actions.

Yeah, because the instructions give you different benefits depending on the situation, and the situation has changed after you played the card for the first time. That's what the Highway without the horizontal line would do, too; the first time you get the "While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0", it does exactly that and then Poor House costs $0 and Silver costs $2, and the second time you get the "While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0", it does exactly that again and then Silver costs $1 but Poor House's cost is unaffected this time.

That's also what happens when you Throne a Smithy with 3 cards left in your deck — the first time you play the Smithy, it gives you +3 cards, and the second time you play the Smithy, you still get the "+3 cards" effect but it just doesn't do anything now.
But that's where I'd think that no, the benefit of the while-in-play effect is not received even though it was set up twice, especially since it's different wording from other existing cards with the same effect such as Bridge. I'd intetpret that as performing the check twice, but you can't get the benefit more than once per physical card.

For me, while-in-play means the same thing whether or not it is below a horizontal line, considering the context of Dominion as we know it.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7914
  • Respect: +8721
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2015, 02:40:09 pm »
+3

The thing is, Dominion is not Magic. Card wordings are more focused on readability/ease of understanding than they are on the intricacy of all the rules. Cards are never errata'd if a better wording is found. You need to read each card literally as a human should read it; not overthinking the possible logical implications.

For example, the instruction at the bottom of Embargo. Everyone understood just fine that it was defining what an Embargo token does; people don't think that the fact that the instruction is written on 10 different card means that the instruction triggers 10 times. Same with Duchess. Then you have cards like Envoy which say "draw", even though the cards aren't actually being "drawn" (the -1 card token doesn't affect it). Then you have Pirate Ship, which says "take a coin token"; and even though that has actually caused confusion among some people, it's just how it is.

For Highway, yes, if you removed the line then you could make the technical argument that suddenly you have the effect "while this is in play...."; and that there's no reason that effect should ever go away. But nobody would actually think that if they picked up the game and saw Highway without a line. There's no cards in Dominion that set up a permanent effect for the rest of the game (there's things like Prince, which set up "at the start of each of your turns"; but that's something that specifically triggers repeatedly; not an ongoing effect).

Point being, even if Awaclus is technically correct; the game would still function just fine if Highway didn't have that line. The line is intended to add clarity, it's not absolutely required to make the game work.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11163
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11832
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2015, 03:02:42 pm »
+2

But that's where I'd think that no, the benefit of the while-in-play effect is not received even though it was set up twice, especially since it's different wording from other existing cards with the same effect such as Bridge. I'd intetpret that as performing the check twice, but you can't get the benefit more than once per physical card.

For me, while-in-play means the same thing whether or not it is below a horizontal line, considering the context of Dominion as we know it.

Why is while-in-play special? Everything else means different things depending on whether or not it is below a horizontal line, so it would make a lot of sense for while-in-play to follow the same logic as well.

The wording is different from other existing cards such as Bridge because "When you play this, while this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0" is very much different from "When you play this, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0 this turn". The former results in games like

T1: buy Highway Without Horizontal Line.
T2: buy nothing.
T3: play Highway Without Horizontal Line, cards cost $1 less while it's in play, but not less than $0 now, buy a Silver.
T4: buy a Silver.
T5: play the same Highway Without Horizontal Line, now there are two "while this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0" effects, and since it happens to be in play now, all cards cost $2 less. Buy another Highway Without Horizontal Line.
T6: Your opponents play a bunch of Governors and Council Rooms until you reshuffle and draw one Highway Without Horizontal Line. Then you play it. Now you have to know if it's the one you bought on turn 1 or the one you bought on turn 5, because if it's the one you bought on turn 1, cards cost $3 less now, but if it's the new one, they just cost $1 less.

because "While this is in play" effects are continuous, so you get another one of those continuous effects every time you play it because that's its on-play effect, and then they build up. The latter doesn't, because even though "this turn" effects are continuous as well, they end after "this turn" is done, and there will never be another this turn ever again.


It's not that a check is being performed twice with Throned Highway Without Horizontal Lines, it's that a check is being performed continuously, for two different instances of the effect. The card is in play, so the check returns true for both instances.


The context of Dominion as we know it already has Scheme and Herbalist having the same wording without a horizontal line and below a horizontal line, respectively, doing different things because of that. I don't see a reason to believe that while-in-play is somehow special.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

scott_pilgrim

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1029
  • Respect: +1998
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2015, 03:04:20 pm »
+2

For Highway, yes, if you removed the line then you could make the technical argument that suddenly you have the effect "while this is in play...."; and that there's no reason that effect should ever go away. But nobody would actually think that if they picked up the game and saw Highway without a line. There's no cards in Dominion that set up a permanent effect for the rest of the game (there's things like Prince, which set up "at the start of each of your turns"; but that's something that specifically triggers repeatedly; not an ongoing effect).

The problem is that, without the ruling on the meaning of a horizontal line, it actually is confusing.  Why is Scheme different from Highway when throned?  If there were no line on Highway, I'm sure we could all agree it's silly that it would set up a permanent effect for the rest of the game (though following the literal wording and rules, that is what would happen).  But we would still get confused about what happens when it is throned.  Scheme only works when throned because there is no line on it; if there were not lines on cards, we would have to assume that Scheme and Highway behave the same way when throned.  There's nothing special about the fact that it's phrased as "At the start of your clean-up" rather than "While this is in play"; what is special is that one is an event that is set up when played, while the other is a rule that is true no matter what.  Of course there are other notations that could have been used instead of a line, or there could be nothing helpful on the card at all and it could just have been clarified in the rulebook.  But you want the game to be as complete and clear as possible, and you want to be able to figure out how cards interact without looking it up in the rulebook every time.  By having a standard notation to distinguish "on-play, set up an event" from "this is always true" effects, people ideally won't need to depend on a rulebook or FAQ as much.

It's true that effects below the line are never on play effects, but the wording of all those effects make it possible to know that even if the line wasn't there. Both the wording of below-line effects like "While in play" and the horizontal line itself suggest the effect cannot be throned and to date they've never defied that rule.

Then I can just as easily argue that Scheme's "At the start of clean-up" wording suggests that it cannot be throned.  While a Goons is in play, I get +VP when I buy something.  When I discard Scheme from play, I put something on top of my deck.  Why is the second one thronable while the first is not?  The only difference is the horizontal line.

The horizontal line is just a hard-and-fast rule that might confuse you if you don't understand it and when when it applies. Throne room variants don't have a special tag or anything after all.

I'm not sure what you're saying...there's nothing special about throne room variants.  They have an effect that plays a card an extra time.  Because of that, the difference between a card being played and it being in play (or being  is relevant, and that's why we need to have this discussion.
Logged

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2962
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3785
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2015, 03:05:31 pm »
0

There's no cards in Dominion that set up a permanent effect for the rest of the game

Champion.
Logged

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2962
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3785
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2015, 03:07:36 pm »
+2

The context of Dominion as we know it already has Scheme and Herbalist having the same wording without a horizontal line and below a horizontal line, respectively, doing different things because of that.

Scheme and Herbalist don't have the same wording.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2015, 03:24:55 pm »
+1

The context of Dominion as we know it already has Scheme and Herbalist having the same wording without a horizontal line and below a horizontal line, respectively, doing different things because of that.

Scheme and Herbalist don't have the same wording.

Exactly. Scheme is "At the start of Clean-up this turn" and Herbalist is "When you discard this from play". Herbalist's effect would still happen even if you somehow got it into play without playing it. Scheme's effect happens once per time you played it that turn.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3735
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2311
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2015, 03:32:42 pm »
0

The context of Dominion as we know it already has Scheme and Herbalist having the same wording without a horizontal line and below a horizontal line, respectively, doing different things because of that.

Scheme and Herbalist don't have the same wording.

Exactly. Scheme is "At the start of Clean-up this turn" and Herbalist is "When you discard this from play". Herbalist's effect would still happen even if you somehow got it into play without playing it. Scheme's effect happens once per time you played it that turn.

Below the line effects never reference a particular turn like Scheme does because they are ongoing effects tied to the card's existence. If an exception was made to that and Scheme's effect was below the line, who's to say you can't Throne that effect other than the rulebook. Herbalist is on discard, and you can't discard it from play twice so it would function the same way if that effect was above the line.

The horizontal line separates on play effects from ongoing effects, but the wording of the effects themselves also distinguish themselves as on-play and ongoing.
Logged

scott_pilgrim

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1029
  • Respect: +1998
    • View Profile
Re: Royal carriage and "in play cards"
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2015, 03:55:24 pm »
+3

What is going on right now?  Awaclus is the one making sense, and everyone else is chiming in with unhelpful, irrelevant comments.

No, Scheme and Herbalist do not have identical wordings.  Obviously they do different things.  But if we ignore lines on cards, we would expect them to behave the same way when throned.  Either we could say:

1. Scheme works when throned, because it sets up an event to happen at the start of clean-up phase.  Therefore, Herbalist should work when throned, because it sets up an event to happen when discarded from play.

OR

2. Herbalist doesn't work when throned, because it just does something when discarded from play.  Therefore, Scheme shouldn't work when throned because it just does something at the start of clean-up.

#2 doesn't make sense to me, I assume you would have to argue for #1.  But the only way we can explain that Scheme works when throned and Herbalist doesn't is by acknowledging that the line is meaningful.

It's not helpful for you guys to keep saying "the wording makes it obvious".  No, it doesn't.  These cards are all doing the same thing.  Obviously not exactly the same, we have to keep cards interesting.  But they all do things that become relevant later in the turn.  One of them says it starts at clean-up and another says when it's discarded from play, and another says while it's in play, how does that make a difference?  You guys keep saying it's obvious, but it all looks like the same thing to me.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10  All
 

Page created in 0.106 seconds with 22 queries.