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[ashersky]

See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13950.msg527572#msg527572

I'd like to create a library of standard roles for use in normal games on f.ds.  We can use it much like the rules thread -- a resource that can be referred to or used.

I've done one as a sample, which is of course an easy start for debate and discussion.  It's at the link above.  I'd like us to focus on one, basically agree (with probably me being the final arbitor on contentious issues), and then move on to other common roles.

If no one or few folks comment or object, I'll just make the calls myself.  I prefer discussion, even though this stuff is pretty straightforward.

Thanks.

[ashersky]

For ease of discussion:


Doctor (protective)

--Can target any living player, other than himself.
--Will stop one normal kill attempt on the target.
--Is unsuccessful if roleblocked or jailkept.
--Is unsuccessful if the target is jailkept once or otherwise becomes untargetable (commutes, hides, etc.)
--Is unsuccessful if the kill attempt has the strongman modifier.
--Is successful even if killed while doctoring.

Sample PM:

Welcome to Sample PM Mafia, Sample Player.  You are a Doctor.

At night, you may target one living player other than yourself.  You will protect them from one nightkill.

Key interactions: Strongman (modifier)

[faust]

I think two questions are relevant for discussing Doctor:

1) How does it interact with multiple kills?
2) How do multiple Doctors interact with Strongman?

There are solutions given for both scenarios here: 2 kills + 1 Doc = kill. 2 Docs + 1 Strongman = no kill. Which is fine, but a bit unsymmetric. One would think that if two kills can overcome one Doctor, then two Doctors should be able to overcome 1 Strongman. The scenario is relevant because it can appear in asher++ for example, which is pretty commonly played.

Other than that, some minor nitpicking: The text references "one normal kill", but what is a "normal kill"? This should be defined or phrased differently, sothat it is clear whether the Doctor can stop poison kills (I think no), ninja kills (I think yes) and such.

[ashersky]

I think two questions are relevant for discussing Doctor:

1) How does it interact with multiple kills?
2) How do multiple Doctors interact with Strongman?

There are solutions given for both scenarios here: 2 kills + 1 Doc = kill. 2 Docs + 1 Strongman = no kill. Which is fine, but a bit unsymmetric. One would think that if two kills can overcome one Doctor, then two Doctors should be able to overcome 1 Strongman. The scenario is relevant because it can appear in asher++ for example, which is pretty commonly played.

Other than that, some minor nitpicking: The text references "one normal kill", but what is a "normal kill"? This should be defined or phrased differently, sothat it is clear whether the Doctor can stop poison kills (I think no), ninja kills (I think yes) and such.

I actually want to define normal kill, so good catch.

My ruling is that two doctors does overcome Strongman.

[ashersky]

My asher9++ footnotes point that out, too, I think.  Strongman beats one doctor or roleblocker only.

[faust]

My ruling is that two doctors does overcome Strongman.

But the way it is stated right now is this:

--Is unsuccessful if the kill attempt has the strongman modifier.

Which implies that every Doctor role targetting someone who is targetted by a Strongman kill fails, and thus that the kill goes through.

[Witherweaver]

I would just word things in terms of number of normal kills.  1 Doctor target blocks 1 normal kill.  1 Strongman modifier counts as 2 normal kills, etc. Two separate factions (normal) killing the same target is 2 normal kills. A Ninja kill is a normal kill that cannot be Tracked, Watched, whatever; a Poison kill is not a normal kill.  Etc.

[faust]

I would just word things in terms of number of normal kills.  1 Doctor target blocks 1 normal kill.  1 Strongman modifier counts as 2 normal kills, etc. Two separate factions (normal) killing the same target is 2 normal kills. A Ninja kill is a normal kill that cannot be Tracked, Watched, whatever; a Poison kill is not a normal kill.  Etc.

That seems very reasonable.

[faust]

On another note, I believe every role should get an assigned "type", which shows for example when the role is being followed or voyeured. Doctor would obviously fall under "protective role".

[ashersky]

I added "(protective)" to the title.

It does say "stops one normal kill" there.  How do I word the line about interacting with strongman?  It's written in a true manner, but doesn't cover the other cases.

[Witherweaver]

I added "(protective)" to the title.

It does say "stops one normal kill" there.  How do I word the line about interacting with strongman?  It's written in a true manner, but doesn't cover the other cases.

You don't really need to if you specify that Strongman counts as "two normal kills" in the Strongman description.  You can add the clarifying examples there of one doctor vs. one strongman and two doctors vs. two strongmans.

[faust]

One thing to consider: If the Strongman role is just that it counts as two normal kills, then that would imply that it is blockable by a Roleblocker. Which I actually like, but e.g. asher++ handles it differently.

[Witherweaver]

One thing to consider: If the Strongman role is just that it counts as two normal kills, then that would imply that it is blockable by a Roleblocker. Which I actually like, but e.g. asher++ handles it differently.

Huh, I always thought that it was. 

[Witherweaver]

One thing to consider: If the Strongman role is just that it counts as two normal kills, then that would imply that it is blockable by a Roleblocker. Which I actually like, but e.g. asher++ handles it differently.

Huh, I always thought that it was.

Oh, wait, I see what you mean.  My thought was that one Roleblocker knocks off one "level" of abilities.  So 1 RB blocks 1 regular Night Kill, does not block the Strongman, but 2 RB would.

[silverspawn]

One thing to consider: If the Strongman role is just that it counts as two normal kills, then that would imply that it is blockable by a Roleblocker. Which I actually like, but e.g. asher++ handles it differently.

I would like that too. Pony mafia was kind of a depressing game to observe, because all town PR's were completely useless just because of the full strongman. That shifts the balance further in the direction of cops >>>> everything else

[skip wooznum]

One thing to consider: If the Strongman role is just that it counts as two normal kills, then that would imply that it is blockable by a Roleblocker. Which I actually like, but e.g. asher++ handles it differently.

I would like that too. Pony mafia was kind of a depressing game to observe, because all town PR's were completely useless just because of the full strongman. That shifts the balance further in the direction of cops >>>> everything else

agreed. But I was rb that game so im a bit biased

[skip wooznum]

And regardless of this, I don't think viewing a strongman kill as two kills is very intuitive anyway. In my mind, I always looked at strongman as a single kill with level 2 unprotectability (regular kill is level 1). And each doctoring is a level 1 protection. And after we have all the actions tallied up, if the protection is equal to or greater than the unprotectability, the kill is stopped.
Now roleblockers could be added to this equation, in which they would be a level 1 protections if they target a relevant player. Or they could be evaluated before everything else, and remove the target entirely, independent of how high a level of unprotectability that target would eventually produce. Just to give you an idea of what goes on in my head.

[skip wooznum]

How do I word the line about interacting with strongman?  It's written in a true manner, but doesn't cover the other cases.

I would change it to
"-Is unsuccessful if it is the only protection and the kill attempt has the strongman modifier"

[faust]

How do I word the line about interacting with strongman?  It's written in a true manner, but doesn't cover the other cases.

I would change it to
"-Is unsuccessful if it is the only protection and the kill attempt has the strongman modifier"

But of course then if two Doctors target the same person and that person is targetted by two kills, one of which is Strongman, the rule says that the kills do not go through.

[faust]

One does not simply standardize roles in f.ds edgecase-land.

[skip wooznum]

How do I word the line about interacting with strongman?  It's written in a true manner, but doesn't cover the other cases.

I would change it to
"-Is unsuccessful if it is the only protection and the kill attempt has the strongman modifier"

But of course then if two Doctors target the same person and that person is targetted by two kills, one of which is Strongman, the rule says that the kills do not go through.

I don't think it necessarily implies that

[skip wooznum]

How do I word the line about interacting with strongman?  It's written in a true manner, but doesn't cover the other cases.

I would change it to
"-Is unsuccessful if it is the only protection and the kill attempt has the strongman modifier"

But of course then if two Doctors target the same person and that person is targetted by two kills, one of which is Strongman, the rule says that the kills do not go through.

I don't think it necessarily implies that

actually, nevermind.

[skip wooznum]

Well, maybe it would fall under this rule

--Will stop one normal kill attempt on the target.

that implies that two doctors can stop at most two normal kills.

[Archetype]

And regardless of this, I don't think viewing a strongman kill as two kills is very intuitive anyway. In my mind, I always looked at strongman as a single kill with level 2 unprotectability (regular kill is level 1). And each doctoring is a level 1 protection. And after we have all the actions tallied up, if the protection is equal to or greater than the unprotectability, the kill is stopped.
Now roleblockers could be added to this equation, in which they would be a level 1 protections if they target a relevant player. Or they could be evaluated before everything else, and remove the target entirely, independent of how high a level of unprotectability that target would eventually produce. Just to give you an idea of what goes on in my head.

That's how I interpret it too. See: College Town.

[scott_pilgrim]

One thing to consider: If the Strongman role is just that it counts as two normal kills, then that would imply that it is blockable by a Roleblocker. Which I actually like, but e.g. asher++ handles it differently.

I would like that too. Pony mafia was kind of a depressing game to observe, because all town PR's were completely useless just because of the full strongman. That shifts the balance further in the direction of cops >>>> everything else

Yeah, this is why I don't like strongman as a role.  Godfathers are fine because cops are really good, but doc is already a pretty weak role, it doesn't need a role dedicated to making it weaker.

And regardless of this, I don't think viewing a strongman kill as two kills is very intuitive anyway. In my mind, I always looked at strongman as a single kill with level 2 unprotectability (regular kill is level 1). And each doctoring is a level 1 protection. And after we have all the actions tallied up, if the protection is equal to or greater than the unprotectability, the kill is stopped.
Now roleblockers could be added to this equation, in which they would be a level 1 protections if they target a relevant player. Or they could be evaluated before everything else, and remove the target entirely, independent of how high a level of unprotectability that target would eventually produce. Just to give you an idea of what goes on in my head.

That's how I interpret it too. See: College Town.

Same for me, but I thought this was equivalent to what faust was suggesting.

I've always thought "strongman is blocked by roleblockers" was much more intuitive.  It seems like it would be easier to word, anyway.  The roleblocking happens to the killer; the doctor happens to the victim.  The strongman modifier checks the victim's "protection", so the roleblocking is not counted in that.