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GendoIkari

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Re: my cards
« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2015, 04:34:20 pm »
+1

Shelters and no $2 kingdom card (Might as well buy an Estate)

Just to be clear, this is a bad idea unless you are specifically trying to bump up Trade Route.

Why? Would you say buying an Estate (over nothing) to replace Hovel is that much worse than waiting to replace it with a Province? I think it hardly matters if you have trashers in the kingdom, either way.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11388.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8231.0

2 of the threads where this has been discussed at length; I know there's more too.
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ConMan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2015, 06:58:33 pm »
+1

I do not worry about improbable combos and borderline rule issues but about whether the card is balanced and whether the idea of negative virtual coins is interesting in the first place.
Good for you, and you're welcome to continue doing things that way. But you do need to keep in mind you're talking to people on a forum where the rulings for several official cards have been decided, and in some cases overturned, because of logical issues or gaps in the rules. And that's even after the designer of the game took significant care himself to make sure the rules were as simple and comprehensive as he could make them. So for many of us, "play it however you want" doesn't work - if something behaves ambiguously or counter to our intuition, we want to tighten it up so that it works. Which is not to say that when we argue for an altered wording or ruling on your card that we think it's bad - actually, I'd say that expressing interest in making the card work shows that we think the core concept has potential but that we want it in a form that we would feel comfortable including in a Kingdom.

And on that note, in addition to the Armada-Storyteller issue, there's also the Armada-Poor House one. If I have $-5 and I play a Poor House with 1 Treasure in hand, do I now have $-1, $-2 or $0? Same situation, but with no Treasures in hand - do I have $-1 or $0?

For that matter, I'm actually not convinced that the interpretation of Armada-Storyteller is right. If I have negative coins, how can I spend them in the first place? I would think it more likely that you have no available coins to spend, hence you would draw no cards and your coin total would stay the same.
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eHalcyon

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Re: my cards
« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2015, 07:29:04 pm »
+1

Just to be totally clear, I wasn't saying that having negative coins is necessarily a bad thing.  I was only reminding you of cases where it's ambiguous, for which you should provide clarifications.  If you don't care about and/or want to ignore these cases entirely, more power to you, but it's something that actually matters for the game.  Like, if you don't want even this level of feedback, what exactly are you looking for?
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2015, 02:17:24 am »
0

And on that note, in addition to the Armada-Storyteller issue, there's also the Armada-Poor House one. If I have $-5 and I play a Poor House with 1 Treasure in hand, do I now have $-1, $-2 or $0? Same situation, but with no Treasures in hand - do I have $-1 or $0?
There is no issue. Poor House does not lead to negative virtual coins (it is the only card with a minus sign in front of virtual coins but this is only used for internal calculation), it leads to virtual coins between 0 and 4. There is no interaction between Armada and Poor House as Poor House interacts with Treasure and not with Action cards. So in the first case you get -5+3=-2 and in the second -5+4=-1.


For that matter, I'm actually not convinced that the interpretation of Armada-Storyteller is right. If I have negative coins, how can I spend them in the first place? I would think it more likely that you have no available coins to spend, hence you would draw no cards and your coin total would stay the same.
Sounds totally reasonable.
But as I already said, for all I care folks could play (not that anybody besides me would ever play with this card in the first place) this unlikely combo however they wished to. I am all for decent rules but in the case of combo-intense card games there are always card interactions that are ambiguous or unclear and if they do not occur frequently it is not something I worry about until it actually happens.

Again, what matters far more from a practical perspective is whether the non-convexity that this very card introduces, willingly forsaking coins and thus the purchase of cards and instead using Armada to draw many card and then play actions card that gain cards or spam or whatever, will break Armada or not.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 02:18:54 am by tristan »
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2015, 02:53:23 am »
0

Just to be totally clear, I wasn't saying that having negative coins is necessarily a bad thing.  I was only reminding you of cases where it's ambiguous, for which you should provide clarifications.  If you don't care about and/or want to ignore these cases entirely, more power to you, but it's something that actually matters for the game.  Like, if you don't want even this level of feedback, what exactly are you looking for?
I already said several times that I first care about whether the idea is interesting. Then I care about whether the non-convexity breaks the card or not. If it doesn't I care about making the card balanced (price and negative coins are the obvious paramaters to change).
Then we can talk about rule issues. So far the only rule issue that occured (the other stuff was just mathematical weakness: having issues with a card which provides negative virtual coins and the resulting summing up of not merely positive numbers and lack of understanding of how Poor House works, specifically that it interacts with Treasure and not with Action cards and that the negative sign in front of a coin is used for internal calculation and does not lead to net negative coins but rather values between 0 and 4) is with Storyteller and ConMan already solved that: you cannot spend negative coins.
But even if this rule issue had not been solved I could not have cared less about it as it is an extremely unlikely combo that occurs in a few games among thousands and so it is of little to no practical relevance. As I already indicated above we have a bit of a game-idelogical difference here, mathematicians vs lawyers: I care more about technical-analytical stuff, whether the card works in general, and you more about rule tightness, whether you could play smoothly with it in all decks without facing any rule questions.


Now that the only rule question has been solved by ConMan to the technical-analytical stuff and the non-convexity problem. How frequently do you guys who have played the game far more often than me guesstimate that decks in which you can forsake card purchases and instead use more spammers or gainers or whatever during the middlegame (it is clear that the card is inferior to Smithy in the opening.) occur? This is what I guess Armada might do, of course you could also use it normally once you have enough coin generation in your deck to counteract Armada's negative coins.
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Asper

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Re: my cards
« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2015, 04:06:02 am »
0

If i play Armada and then a Poor House with 4 Treasure cards in hand, do i have $0?

I'll just state Donald had a reason to introduce the "-$1" token instead of having Bridge Troll say "At the start of his next turn, each other player gets -$1". It avoids exactly the issues people are talking about, and many more that might come up in the future or with translated versions of Dominion.

I know you make this card for yourself, and that's fine. You can make any card you like. Just don't expect people to be thrilled by something that breaks Dominion's design standards - especially if a cleaner implementation is allready available.

Having said that, i think nothing's generally wrong with the concept of a card that uses up your money for draw. Some suggestions:

Armada, $5
+3 Cards
Spend up to $2 you have. +1 Cards per $ spent.

Or:
Armada, $5
+3 Cards
Take your -$1 token. If you do: +2 Cards

Or:
Armada, $4
+5 Cards
When you do your first buy this turn, you may spend $3. If you don't, trash this.

Of course, they all are all a bit redundant to Storyteller, but that's of course because the general concept is the same.
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2015, 05:00:25 am »
0

If i play Armada and then a Poor House with 4 Treasure cards in hand, do i have $0?
To quote myself:  "There is no interaction between Armada and Poor House as Poor House interacts with Treasure and not with Action cards."
Armada provides - 3, Poor House with 4 treasures 0 and the sum of that is -3.

Quote
I'll just state Donald had a reason to introduce the "-$1" token instead of having Bridge Troll say "At the start of his next turn, each other player gets -$1". It avoids exactly the issues people are talking about, and many more that might come up in the future or with translated versions of Dominion.
There are no issues except with Storyteller and this is already solved.
The -1 Coin token exists for tracking reasons (the negative coins from Ball and Bridge Troll happen in the next turn whereas Armada happens in the current turn), not because it achieves something fundamentally mechanically different from -1 Coin.  ::)
The only slight difference is that a hypothetical card with "take your -1 coin token" that applies during the current turn only triggers in the current turn if you play a card which generated coins whereas "-1 coin" provides the negative coins immediately. So the former is slightly nastier than the latter.

Quote
I know you make this card for yourself, and that's fine. You can make any card you like. Just don't expect people to be thrilled by something that breaks Dominion's design standards - especially if a cleaner implementation is allready-available.
Armada does not break any design standards. If people do not understand how Poor House works or have problems with summing up positive as well as negative numbers that is their problem.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 05:01:27 am by tristan »
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faust

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Re: my cards
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2015, 05:05:09 am »
+4

If i play Armada and then a Poor House with 4 Treasure cards in hand, do i have $0?
To quote myself:  "There is no interaction between Armada and Poor House as Poor House interacts with Treasure and not with Action cards."
Armada provides - 3, Poor House with 4 treasures 0 and the sum of that is -3.

That is plain wrong. Say I have $-4. I play Poor House with 4 Treasures. First instruction on Poor House: +$4. Cool, now I have $0. Then: "Reveal your hand. -$1 per Treasure revealed, To a minimum of $0." I cannot go below $0, which is already where I'm at, so the final outcome is $0.

You are awfully arrogant for someone who doesn't even bother reading card texts.
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2015, 05:15:20 am »
0

That is plain wrong. Say I have $-4. I play Poor House with 4 Treasures. First instruction on Poor House: +$4. Cool, now I have $0. Then: "Reveal your hand. -$1 per Treasure revealed, To a minimum of $0." I cannot go below $0, which is already where I'm at, so the final outcome is $0.

You are awfully arrogant for someone who doesn't even bother reading card texts.
Thanks for the insult.
My mistake, I thought that Poor House provides 0-4 Coins and cannot subtract coins from previously played cards.

Well, I guess that Poor House then mitigates the negative effects of Armada so it could be a potentially powerful combo.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 05:25:22 am by tristan »
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Asper

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Re: my cards
« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2015, 05:24:31 am »
0

To quote myself:  "There is no interaction between Armada and Poor House as Poor House interacts with Treasure and not with Action cards."
Armada provides - 3, Poor House with 4 treasures 0 and the sum of that is -3.

Quoting a wrong statement doesn't make it right. Poor House can in fact cost you money. If i play Festival and then get -$6 for Poor House, i have $0, not $2. Only the sum you are left with is set to a minimum of $0, not what Poor House provides. So, Armada gives me -$3, Poor House makes it +$1, then decreases it to a lower level of $0. The fact that you misunderstand that shows that you are unaware of the rules implications your card causes, and/or the mechanics and thoughts behind existing cards such as Storyteller, Poor House and Bridge Troll.

The issue with Storyteller is "resolved" in that you made up a special rule. That's inelegant at least. Also the question whether you can buy Copper appears in every game Armada is in. You can't buy Copper, you say? That sucks, because you are supposed to always be able to buy Copper as a last resort. So it's your single sentence in the rulebook of a game that never has negative coins vs a design constant.

The fact that the token waits until you make a coin alone makes it mechanically different. As it never gets your total below zero and avoids your need for on-the-spot ruling, it's obviously also much better. Notice how it still allows buying $0 costs? Well, what'cha say about that. I may also mention that Bridge would technically make Transmute cost -$1 and a Potion if you went strictly by its wording, as that's not less than $0. It doesn't, though. Why? Because Dominion is not supposed to have negative numbers. You can break that rule, and you can make cards that require people to shoot meeples with a catapult, or whatever you want. Just don't claim it lives up to Dominion's design standards, because it doesn't.

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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2015, 05:33:49 am »
0

Negative prices make no economic sense which is why they do not exist which is why your Transmute example is nonsensical.

Really wouldn't hurt the rule lawyer faction to get some mathematical, economic or technical understanding. I care about whether the non-convexity of my card leads to interesting decisions, not about whether the lawyer faction gets pissed off by it because it doesn't match their narrow view of what Dominion is supposed to have or not have. Any game designer, including Donald X, would laugh off his butt if he read the narrow-minded rule lawyer nonsense of guys like you. If an idea is interesting you change the rules to make it work (not that my card needs any rule changes, just a normal FAQ for two card combos so far).
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 05:35:01 am by tristan »
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Asper

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Re: my cards
« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2015, 06:11:20 am »
0

So, you think you speak for Donald X and when critizised by several people for the same issue smugly claim they are just "pissed off".

Please, completely unfamiliar fan card creator, forgive me talKing.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: my cards
« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2015, 06:29:09 am »
0

Wait...if you have -3 coins, and Poor House gives you zero coins (because you have four treasures), isn't -3+0 still -3?
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Asper

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Re: my cards
« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2015, 06:41:59 am »
0

Wait...if you have -3 coins, and Poor House gives you zero coins (because you have four treasures), isn't -3+0 still -3?

Poor House doesn't just give you 0 coins. It gives you 4 and subsequently decreases your total to a minimum of $0.

Which leaves the question, what do i get if i play two Armadas and then a -$X Poor House?
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: my cards
« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2015, 06:59:55 am »
+1

Wait...if you have -3 coins, and Poor House gives you zero coins (because you have four treasures), isn't -3+0 still -3?

Poor House doesn't just give you 0 coins. It gives you 4 and subsequently decreases your total to a minimum of $0.

Which leaves the question, what do i get if i play two Armadas and then a -$X Poor House?
After reading the card, it looks to me (keep in mind that I am a huge noob and I've never read a rule book cover to cover) like Poor House would put your coin total back up to zero, as zero is the minimum number you can have after playing Poor House.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: my cards
« Reply #90 on: October 14, 2015, 07:34:14 am »
0

As a general game design note, negative numbers are way harder for the average person to consistently correctly use than you would expect. It's one of the hurdles I personally had to overcome, understanding that. It's easy to forget that, by designing for the "average" person, that you're already excluding half of the population, and so you have to design for simpler than the "average" person to cast a wider net.
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faust

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Re: my cards
« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2015, 08:16:46 am »
+2

Really wouldn't hurt the rule lawyer faction to get some mathematical [...] understanding.

Yes, that's right. I hope that once I finish my Master's degree in mathematics in 6 months time, I will finally have sufficient mathematical understanding to see that Poor House does in fact not work the way it is written on the card. I'm looking forward to that day.
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GendoIkari

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Re: my cards
« Reply #92 on: October 14, 2015, 09:26:17 am »
+3

This thread is quickly becoming the Bomb.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: my cards
« Reply #93 on: October 14, 2015, 10:04:34 am »
0

If someone wants to ignore a single design standard, then fine. Tristan appears to be fine with cards without a clear consistent application of the rules. If he's fine with that weakness we can talk about the other traits of the card. Don't criticize things for not being what they weren't trying to be.
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GendoIkari

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Re: my cards
« Reply #94 on: October 14, 2015, 10:10:16 am »
+1

If someone wants to ignore a single design standard, then fine. Tristan appears to be fine with cards without a clear consistent application of the rules. If he's fine with that weakness we can talk about the other traits of the card. Don't criticize things for not being what they weren't trying to be.

Agreed. Though there's a difference between saying:

"I understand that there's potential rules issues or clarifications that are needed with this card. But let's not go into that at the moment, because I'd rather figure out if the concept itself is a good idea, and if it's balanced. Potential rules issues could be discussed later if this idea is something that looks good on paper."

And:

"There's no rules issues here unless you're just an idiot at math, or you don't understand basic concepts! I always play full random so there's no point in discussing what would happen if 2 particular cards are both in the set anyway. My design is perfectly consistent with all the other things in Dominion, and if you don't agree then you're just being an overly picky rules lawyer!"
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eHalcyon

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Re: my cards
« Reply #95 on: October 14, 2015, 01:51:46 pm »
+1

Wow.  When it turns out that you were completely wrong about something (i.e. Poor House), the appropriate reaction isn't to call everybody else pissed off rules lawyers who lack economic, mathematical and technical knowledge.  Especially not when you just spent a page touting your own superior understanding of game principles while those people patiently tried to correct your mistake.
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Re: my cards
« Reply #96 on: October 14, 2015, 03:15:27 pm »
+1

Wow.  When it turns out that you were completely wrong about something (i.e. Poor House), the appropriate reaction isn't to call everybody else pissed off rules lawyers who lack economic, mathematical and technical knowledge.  Especially not when you just spent a page touting your own superior understanding of game principles while those people patiently tried to correct your mistake.
I've been there. There are these fools called like Wanderwinder and Stef who try to tell me Scout is a bad card. But I showed them!  ::)
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2015, 04:33:09 am »
0

Please, completely unfamiliar fan card creator, forgive me talKing.
Oh, an argument from authority. Love it when people disqualify themselves so quickly with unscientific nonsense. Guess you must be the well reknown king of fan cards creators.  ;D

Really wouldn't hurt the rule lawyer faction to get some mathematical [...] understanding.

Yes, that's right. I hope that once I finish my Master's degree in mathematics in 6 months time, I will finally have sufficient mathematical understanding to see that Poor House does in fact not work the way it is written on the card. I'm looking forward to that day.
Being familiar with all the rules and card interactions in the game is fine but it has nothing to do with what I wanna do in the first place, analyze whether the cards works in GENERAL.
So if you have something to contribute besides rule lawyering and unfriendliness and can adress the nonconvexity issue which this cards creates in all games, as opposed to a few in a thousand games in which it appears together with Poor House, I'd appreciate it.


If someone wants to ignore a single design standard, then fine. Tristan appears to be fine with cards without a clear consistent application of the rules. If he's fine with that weakness we can talk about the other traits of the card. Don't criticize things for not being what they weren't trying to be.
Can you tell me where the design standard "no negative virtual coins" is actually written or implied? Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 04:35:36 am by tristan »
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Gubump

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Re: my cards
« Reply #98 on: October 15, 2015, 08:51:42 am »
0

Please, completely unfamiliar fan card creator, forgive me talKing.
Oh, an argument from authority. Love it when people disqualify themselves so quickly with unscientific nonsense. Guess you must be the well reknown king of fan cards creators.  ;D

Compared to you, yes.

Really wouldn't hurt the rule lawyer faction to get some mathematical [...] understanding.

Yes, that's right. I hope that once I finish my Master's degree in mathematics in 6 months time, I will finally have sufficient mathematical understanding to see that Poor House does in fact not work the way it is written on the card. I'm looking forward to that day.
Being familiar with all the rules and card interactions in the game is fine but it has nothing to do with what I wanna do in the first place, analyze whether the cards works in GENERAL.
So if you have something to contribute besides rule lawyering and unfriendliness and can adress the nonconvexity issue which this cards creates in all games, as opposed to a few in a thousand games in which it appears together with Poor House, I'd appreciate it.

If someone wants to ignore a single design standard, then fine. Tristan appears to be fine with cards without a clear consistent application of the rules. If he's fine with that weakness we can talk about the other traits of the card. Don't criticize things for not being what they weren't trying to be.
Can you tell me where the design standard "no negative virtual coins" is actually written or implied? Thanks.

Just so you know, there isn't a single person who agrees with you so far. You're completely losing this argument, just like you are being a total jerk. Sorry we didn't give your cards lots of praise, your highness.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 08:59:12 am by Gubump »
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Asper

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Re: my cards
« Reply #99 on: October 15, 2015, 08:56:19 am »
0

Please, completely unfamiliar fan card creator, forgive me talKing.
Oh, an argument from authority. Love it when people disqualify themselves so quickly with unscientific nonsense. Guess you must be the well reknown king of fan cards creators.  ;D

It's not an argument from authority. It's me subtly implying that i think you are the same guy who behaved like a jerk before in the King-thread, and who later created a new account to discuss his cards untainted from past misdeeds. Apparently i was too subtle.

I mean, really? Ignoring valid critizism? Telling us how real game designers would look down on us? How "pissed off" we are because of your cleverness? I just plain refuse to believe that fds was unlucky enough to have been struck twice with the curse of an insufferably arrogant individual like you joining the forums in such a short time.

Back then i was willing to let it slide and give you another chance, but if you think you can just keep switching usernames over and over so you can be a twit again every time, i'm not playing along with your silly little game.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 11:42:59 am by Asper »
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