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tristan

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my cards
« on: September 21, 2015, 04:20:34 am »
0

Hello. Here are some cards idea and I'd appreciate some feedback:


- Townstreet - Action

Choose one: +2 Cards;
or +2 Actions; or +


I mainly worry about the terminal silver part of the card potentially being too strong.




- Melee Island - Action - Attack

Every other player discards a
Treasure card or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards and takes his -  Token.
 
Use the effects of one of the discarded Treasure cards at the beginning of your
Buy phase or take a Coin token.


Obviously a Cutpurse variant. I considered giving the defending player the option to take a Curse even if he has Treasure cards in his hand but decided against it because the wording would have become more complex.
The Coin token part mainly exists to make the card more decent as during most of the middlegame players will only discard Coppers so the bonus is weaker than that of Cutpurse ... and I doubt that the card hitting Gold during the endgame is strong enough (if there are Kingdom cards with virtual coins players will not opt for Gold anyway) to compensate for that, hence the Coin token.
On a sidenote, thematically I wanted to bring the cursed treasure idea into the card but mechanically it is fairly disarranged.



- Shylock - Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
While this is in play, no more than once during your turn: At the end of your Buy phase, put one Coin token for every unspent on your Tavern mat OR add 1/3 (rounded down) of the Coin tokens on your Tavern mat to them and take them.
覧覧覧覧覧覧覧   
When you buy this, you may overpay for it.
For each you overpaid, put one Coin token on your Tavern mat.


The most complex and most tricky-to-evaluate card. As the wording might be bad I wanna clarify that you can use the effect of the card only once during your turn in order to prevent that you dissave and gain interest & later reinvest. You can either save unspent money or take the invested Coins with interest.
I think that this card provides the inverse of what Coin tokens usually do. Instead of gaining Coin tokens and then using them to gain e.g. a Province if you have 7 you now gain a Coin token when you e.g. spent 4 for a Silver and are able to use the gained Coin tokens only when you play the card again.

This obviously requires heavy playtesting but my main question before I do so is whether I should drop the cantrip part of the card, make it terminal but also drop the rule that you can only use its effect once during your turn. I find it hard to tell whether this is too powerful or whether the card in its current state (not being able to harvets the Coins and reinvest later) is too slow.



- Granary - Action

+1 Action
Set aside a card from your hand.
OR
 Discard all set aside cards.
+ for each differently named set aside card.


The main question is whether setting aside a card is weaker or stronger than trashing. In my opinion it is on average slightly stronger as setting aside Victory cards and greening earlier in the game compensates for not getting rid of the negative VPs of Curses.
The second question is how strong the Horn of Plenty / Native Village -like return of the cards idea is and whether it warrants a price increase to .
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 05:43:40 am by tristan »
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: my cards
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2015, 06:39:54 am »
+2

Town street seems very weak and compares unfavorably against Steward. Melee Island should read 'each other player with five or more cards in their hand' or else it gets very, very, very powerful. Like, better than Torturer powerful.
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2015, 08:21:14 am »
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Town street seems very weak and compares unfavorably against Steward. Melee Island should read 'each other player with five or more cards in their hand' or else it gets very, very, very powerful. Like, better than Torturer powerful.
Town Street is my Necro variant that was obviously inspired by Steward. I am glad that you do not think that it is OP.
About Melee Island, that you can get hit by several of them is intentional. If the card has to be nerfed I will drop tits Curser ability.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 08:25:14 am by tristan »
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popsofctown

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Re: my cards
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 09:46:27 am »
+1

Melee Island is 3 card draws short of Torturer, it's probably fine.  If it really does pose a problem in testing it could get the bureacrat treatment and have some Silver gain added to it.

Town Street compares unfavorably to Steward... one of the best 3$ cards in the game.  Where are you going with that?  It's like every dominion fan card has to match the power level of every official cards, including the official cards whose power levels don't match eachother.  Most people don't have enough command of quantum physics for that man.  Town Street is definitely not too weak to be a card.  It's not even in the bottom quartile of Dominion cards.  EVEN if there are other villages AND other card draw, Silver/Town Street is a better opening than Silver/Silver for games with 5$ cards you cant to grab early and the promise of an engine later on, where a silver clogs your hand but a Town Street pairs off with a terminal draw to cycle out.

Shylock is probably balanced, but man, thirds.  I don't like thirds.  Thirds are like the worst thing ever.  I don't want to think about thirds.  I never go to a board game and am like, man, this game has thirds, rounded in some direction, this is exciting.  Unless the card used a different bonus for interest that doesn't involve 0.3 repeating I will probably never love it.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: my cards
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2015, 03:23:26 pm »
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Melee Island is 3 card draws short of Torturer, it's probably fine.  If it really does pose a problem in testing it could get the bureacrat treatment and have some Silver gain added to it.

Town Street compares unfavorably to Steward... one of the best 3$ cards in the game.  Where are you going with that?  It's like every dominion fan card has to match the power level of every official cards, including the official cards whose power levels don't match eachother.  Most people don't have enough command of quantum physics for that man.  Town Street is definitely not too weak to be a card. 
It's worse than Village, Silver and Orcale. Steward is nice because late in the game you can use is as something besides a trasher. I almost feel like I would rather have a Pawn than this. And I compared it to Steward because two of the options are the same!
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GendoIkari

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Re: my cards
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2015, 03:36:14 pm »
+1

I didn't see the +2 cards option on Town Street, because of the line formatting. I was thinking it was maybe an ok , though probably still weak. With all 3 options, I guess it could be a weak , but I do think it's a problem that it so close to Steward. I think it needs something in there to make it different.
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GendoIkari

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Re: my cards
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 03:41:17 pm »
+1

Ratcatcher variant sounds very strong. Setting a card aside is going to be stronger than trashing one most of the time; as you start with 3 junk cards that are better to set aside than to trash. Only in games with Cursers would trashing be better. So just the top half is already a little bit better than a straight cantrip-trasher. Which, before Ratcatcher existed, I would have said is extremely powerful.

The bottom half is really good too though. Did you really mean to put all set aside cards in your hand?? Or did you mean put them in your discard? The former seems really crazy. Even if it's the latter, it just seems like a strong option towards the end of the game; this could easily get you that last Province.

Also, you should remove the last sentence completely. The rules already state that set-aside cards are scored as part of your deck at the end; they don't need to be returned to your deck. Only 2 cards contain this text out of a bunch that can cause things to be set aside at game end.
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eHalcyon

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Re: my cards
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 04:40:34 pm »
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Obviously a Cutpurse variant. I considered giving the defending player the option to take a Curse even if he has Treasure cards in his hand but decided against it because the wording would have become more complex.

Actually, the wording would be simpler:

"Each other player may discard a Treasure card. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse."

I don't think a treasure-targeting discard attack like this is a good idea, but I am sick and headachey and unable to articulate why at the moment.

The second part, "use the effects of a discarded Treasure" is just asking for trouble.  First, "use the effects" isn't defined by Dominion rules, so it should say something like "play the Treasure card".  But then it raises other rules questions.  What happens when you gain a Victory card with Horn of Plenty?  Does it make their Spoils disappear?  Do you steal their Coin of the Realm?  When you play their Treasure card, does it go into your play area?  What happens if you buy a Mandarin?  Just a lot of stuff that gets wonky when you do this kind of thing.

Melee Island is 3 card draws short of Torturer, it's probably fine.  If it really does pose a problem in testing it could get the bureacrat treatment and have some Silver gain added to it.

Town Street compares unfavorably to Steward... one of the best 3$ cards in the game.  Where are you going with that?  It's like every dominion fan card has to match the power level of every official cards, including the official cards whose power levels don't match eachother.  Most people don't have enough command of quantum physics for that man.  Town Street is definitely not too weak to be a card. 
It's worse than Village, Silver and Orcale. Steward is nice because late in the game you can use is as something besides a trasher. I almost feel like I would rather have a Pawn than this. And I compared it to Steward because two of the options are the same!

I agree that it's too similar to Steward, but Town Street is not worse than Village, Silver and Oracle.  It's like saying Steward is worse than Silver and Oracle.  Flexibility matters.
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2015, 04:51:27 pm »
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I wasn't sure about whether Town Street should be a 2 or 3 so thanks for the clarifications about how strong it is.

About the unnamed card, you are totally right GendoIkari, the cards should go into the discard pile. It might be neat to incentivize players to trash good cards in order to get 8 different set aside cards for a Province but it might also be a crappy idea so perhaps I should drop it entirely.

About the wording of Melee Island, I fail to see the problem (of my phrasing as well as coming up with new phrases in general; you wanna do after a little bit of new stuff with fan cards). It should be pretty clear that what it meant by it is that you do as if you played the Treasure card from your hand, i.e. you virtually play a card (and thus, to pick up the examples, you also virtually trash a Spoils or a Horn of Plenty that gains a Victory card, i.e. nothing is actually trashed).
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 04:55:44 pm by tristan »
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popsofctown

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Re: my cards
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015, 10:13:58 am »
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Making Town Street a strong 2 instead of a mediocre 3 would probably make it feel different from Steward.  I'm not sure I have a design philosophy issue with cards being similar to other cards though.  Also, like what if someone made village, except it costed one coin more and gave + buy, wouldn't that be cray.  Sorry, I get offtopic for no reason sometimes.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 10:15:29 am by popsofctown »
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2015, 10:29:29 am »
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About the 'set aside' card, do you think that it is worth 5?

My assumption is that, based upon Upgrade and Junk Dealer, that a pure cantrip trasher is worth 4.
More so on Upgrade to be precise, you are happy to play the card to get rid of coppers. If only Junk Dealer existed you could argue that the card is a Peddler plus a mandatory cantrip trasher so perhaps a mandatory cantrip trasher is only worth 3.
Ratcatcher is probably either a bit too cheap or delayed trashing is really worth a discount of (to be precise more than 2 due to Ratcatcher's Reserve time-flexibility) 2.

But even if a mandatory cantrip trasher is worth a bit less than 4 this is compensated for by this card as it sets aside cards so my guess is that without the Native Village/ Horn of Plenty mishmash thingy it is worth 4 and with it 5.


Making Town Street a strong 2 instead of a mediocre 3 would probably make it feel different from Steward.  I'm not sure I have a design philosophy issue with cards being similar to other cards though.
What if I got rid of the terminal silver part and priced it at 2? I guess that would make it a fairly weak 2 and not really something that could play a flexible enough role in an engine (in decks with terminal draws as well as villages the card would be virtually useless).
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Marcory

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Re: my cards
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2015, 11:25:56 am »
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Maybe instead of the terminal silver bit, you could give it buys or some kind of on-gain (when you gain this, +1 Buy) or on-trash bonus ("when you trash this, gain a Silver").
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popsofctown

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Re: my cards
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2015, 11:59:57 am »
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The card is good at 3$, 2$, and 2$ but without the terminal silver.

If I had all three versions proxied up, I would put all 3 randomizers into my randomizer deck when I played dominion.
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2015, 04:12:30 pm »
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Here is another card idea I have:


- Cursed Treasure - Treasure
4$
When you play this, gain a Curse.
-----------------------------------
When you gain this, put all the Curses in the trash on the Supply.

OR

- Cursed Treasure - Treasure
4$
When you play this, gain two Curses.
-----------------------------------
When you gain this, put all the Curses in the trash on the Supply.


I am not sure about the correct pricing and the wording. The main idea is obviously that of a self-junker. Unlike similar self-junkers that provide a lot of money like Death Cart or Cache it does not happens when you gain the card but when you play it, i.e. later but more often.
The on-gain effect is there to prevent this card from being overpowered in the presence of Cursers and I also consider something like "when you gain this, add x Curses per player to the Supply" to prevent the self-cursing from running out too soon.
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popsofctown

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Re: my cards
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2015, 04:18:02 pm »
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I think the first version is not overpowered at 5$

I also think the trashing clause isn't that necessary.  The game will still have plenty of decisions while the curses are in the process of running out.  It will be a bit of an obvbuy once the curses are gone but I don't think the world will end.  Not every game has trashing, so the trashing clause isn't going to fix every board anyway.
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Asper

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Re: my cards
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2015, 07:37:30 am »
+1

Ratcatcher variant sounds very strong. Setting a card aside is going to be stronger than trashing one most of the time; as you start with 3 junk cards that are better to set aside than to trash. Only in games with Cursers would trashing be better. So just the top half is already a little bit better than a straight cantrip-trasher. Which, before Ratcatcher existed, I would have said is extremely powerful.

It is still powerful. Ratcatcher isn't a cantrip trasher, as it trashes a turn late and can only affect your hand at the turn's beginning.
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2015, 08:24:54 am »
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Ratcatcher variant sounds very strong. Setting a card aside is going to be stronger than trashing one most of the time; as you start with 3 junk cards that are better to set aside than to trash. Only in games with Cursers would trashing be better. So just the top half is already a little bit better than a straight cantrip-trasher. Which, before Ratcatcher existed, I would have said is extremely powerful.

It is still powerful. Ratcatcher isn't a cantrip trasher, as it trashes a turn late and can only affect your hand at the turn's beginning.
Without the bonus the card is a good 4 (a pure cantrip trasher would probably be a fair 4; Junk Dealer is after all a mandatory cantrip trasher plus a Peddler combined) / weak 5. With the bonus it is probably a good 5 but for 6 it would be too expensive which is why I leave it priced at 5.
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Asper

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Re: my cards
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2015, 12:13:31 pm »
+2

Ratcatcher variant sounds very strong. Setting a card aside is going to be stronger than trashing one most of the time; as you start with 3 junk cards that are better to set aside than to trash. Only in games with Cursers would trashing be better. So just the top half is already a little bit better than a straight cantrip-trasher. Which, before Ratcatcher existed, I would have said is extremely powerful.

It is still powerful. Ratcatcher isn't a cantrip trasher, as it trashes a turn late and can only affect your hand at the turn's beginning.
Without the bonus the card is a good 4 (a pure cantrip trasher would probably be a fair 4; Junk Dealer is after all a mandatory cantrip trasher plus a Peddler combined) / weak 5. With the bonus it is probably a good 5 but for 6 it would be too expensive which is why I leave it priced at 5.

I wasn't aware Junk Dealer was weak. Also the step from to is pretty big.
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2015, 08:43:06 pm »
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Ratcatcher variant sounds very strong. Setting a card aside is going to be stronger than trashing one most of the time; as you start with 3 junk cards that are better to set aside than to trash. Only in games with Cursers would trashing be better. So just the top half is already a little bit better than a straight cantrip-trasher. Which, before Ratcatcher existed, I would have said is extremely powerful.

It is still powerful. Ratcatcher isn't a cantrip trasher, as it trashes a turn late and can only affect your hand at the turn's beginning.
Without the bonus the card is a good 4 (a pure cantrip trasher would probably be a fair 4; Junk Dealer is after all a mandatory cantrip trasher plus a Peddler combined) / weak 5. With the bonus it is probably a good 5 but for 6 it would be too expensive which is why I leave it priced at 5.

I wasn't aware Junk Dealer was weak. Also the step from to is pretty big.
Ehm, my point that Junk Dealer is a mandatory cantrip trasher plus a Peddler. The latter is fairly priced at 4 so a pure mandatory cantrip trasher can hardly be worth more than 4 ^^
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 10:28:16 pm by tristan »
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eHalcyon

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Re: my cards
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2015, 08:51:16 pm »
0

Ratcatcher variant sounds very strong. Setting a card aside is going to be stronger than trashing one most of the time; as you start with 3 junk cards that are better to set aside than to trash. Only in games with Cursers would trashing be better. So just the top half is already a little bit better than a straight cantrip-trasher. Which, before Ratcatcher existed, I would have said is extremely powerful.

It is still powerful. Ratcatcher isn't a cantrip trasher, as it trashes a turn late and can only affect your hand at the turn's beginning.
Without the bonus the card is a good 4 (a pure cantrip trasher would probably be a fair 4; Junk Dealer is after all a mandatory cantrip trasher plus a Peddler combined) / weak 5. With the bonus it is probably a good 5 but for 6 it would be too expensive which is why I leave it priced at 5.

I wasn't aware Junk Dealer was weak. Also the step from to is pretty big.
Ehm, my point that Junk Dealer is a mandatory cantrip trasher plus a Peddler. The latter is fairly priced at 5 so a pure mandatory cantrip trasher can hardly be worth more than 4 ^^

Right, it can't be worth more than $4, but it's also probably too strong to cost $4.  The same situation happened in official cards with a Lab-variant that Donald tested.  I think it was called Dungeon; it was "+2 Cards, +1 action, discard a card".  Almost strictly worse than Lab so it can't be be $5+, but in testing it turned out to be too strong for $4, so it was dropped.
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2015, 10:30:26 pm »
0

Ratcatcher variant sounds very strong. Setting a card aside is going to be stronger than trashing one most of the time; as you start with 3 junk cards that are better to set aside than to trash. Only in games with Cursers would trashing be better. So just the top half is already a little bit better than a straight cantrip-trasher. Which, before Ratcatcher existed, I would have said is extremely powerful.

It is still powerful. Ratcatcher isn't a cantrip trasher, as it trashes a turn late and can only affect your hand at the turn's beginning.
Without the bonus the card is a good 4 (a pure cantrip trasher would probably be a fair 4; Junk Dealer is after all a mandatory cantrip trasher plus a Peddler combined) / weak 5. With the bonus it is probably a good 5 but for 6 it would be too expensive which is why I leave it priced at 5.

I wasn't aware Junk Dealer was weak. Also the step from to is pretty big.
Ehm, my point that Junk Dealer is a mandatory cantrip trasher plus a Peddler. The latter is fairly priced at 5 so a pure mandatory cantrip trasher can hardly be worth more than 4 ^^

Right, it can't be worth more than $4, but it's also probably too strong to cost $4.  The same situation happened in official cards with a Lab-variant that Donald tested.  I think it was called Dungeon; it was "+2 Cards, +1 action, discard a card".  Almost strictly worse than Lab so it can't be be $5+, but in testing it turned out to be too strong for $4, so it was dropped.
I have no idea how a mandatory cantrip trasher is supposed to be too strong for 4 given that cards like Ratcatcher, Upgrade and especially Junk Dealer exist. How can a supposedly strong 4 (mandatory cantrip trasher) plus a 4 (Peddler) combined into one card (Junk Dealer) just be worth 5?
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Deadlock39

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Re: my cards
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2015, 11:19:29 pm »
+2

Ratcatcher variant sounds very strong. Setting a card aside is going to be stronger than trashing one most of the time; as you start with 3 junk cards that are better to set aside than to trash. Only in games with Cursers would trashing be better. So just the top half is already a little bit better than a straight cantrip-trasher. Which, before Ratcatcher existed, I would have said is extremely powerful.

It is still powerful. Ratcatcher isn't a cantrip trasher, as it trashes a turn late and can only affect your hand at the turn's beginning.
Without the bonus the card is a good 4 (a pure cantrip trasher would probably be a fair 4; Junk Dealer is after all a mandatory cantrip trasher plus a Peddler combined) / weak 5. With the bonus it is probably a good 5 but for 6 it would be too expensive which is why I leave it priced at 5.

I wasn't aware Junk Dealer was weak. Also the step from to is pretty big.
Ehm, my point that Junk Dealer is a mandatory cantrip trasher plus a Peddler. The latter is fairly priced at 5 so a pure mandatory cantrip trasher can hardly be worth more than 4 ^^

Right, it can't be worth more than $4, but it's also probably too strong to cost $4.  The same situation happened in official cards with a Lab-variant that Donald tested.  I think it was called Dungeon; it was "+2 Cards, +1 action, discard a card".  Almost strictly worse than Lab so it can't be be $5+, but in testing it turned out to be too strong for $4, so it was dropped.
I have no idea how a mandatory cantrip trasher is supposed to be too strong for 4 given that cards like Ratcatcher, Upgrade and especially Junk Dealer exist. How can a supposedly strong 4 (mandatory cantrip trasher) plus a 4 (Peddler) combined into one card (Junk Dealer) just be worth 5?

Because you just can't think of cards that way.  Try looking at other examples where you can add the effect of two cards together to get another one. You won't find consistency in the way they add up. How strong the effect as a whole (the strength of decks it is capable of enabling...) is the most important thing to consider.

How often is the coin you get from Junk Dealer an important part of why you buy the card? How often would Junk Dealer be important at even if it didn't have the coin?

Just about any card can work at just about any price point because Dominion is a mostly symmetric game. Given that trashers really only enable engines and aren't actually the thing that makes them tick, I am sure this card would be fine at , but I agree with the people who say it would be really strong at that price point.  I base that opinion on the fact that I believe I would still buy it in a significant number of games if it was priced at .

eHalcyon

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Re: my cards
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2015, 12:28:54 am »
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I'll elaborate a bit further on why these two cards in particular don't add up that way.

First, consider why you buy each card.

Cantrip trasher -- easy, you get it to thin your deck.  By virtue of being cantrip, you cycle and are able to play other action cards while you trash down, enabling you to accelerate towards an engine.  Eventually (if all goes well), you run out of stuff to trash and the cantrip trasher becomes a junk card you don't want to play.  But that's OK, because one junk action is worth getting rid of all the other junk cards.

Cantrip coin -- you buy this to increase your deck's potential coin value without hurting your deck's consistency.  The cantrip coin is "free" money -- when you play it, you get +$1 without lowering your handsize or losing an action that could be better spent on a powerful payload card.

Now consider Junk Dealer.  Why do you buy it?  Is it for (a) cantrip trashing, (b) cantrip coin, or (c) both?  The answer is actually (a).  While the coin is a nice bonus, it is not the reason you buy Junk Dealer.  The (b) on Junk Dealer is weaker than a straight cantrip coin because your handsize is smaller afterwards.  And in fact, if you wanted it for the coin, the mandatory trashing is actually a liability, especially after you run out of weak cards to trash.  You buy Junk Dealer to deal with junk, and the coin is just a small bonus on top.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 12:29:55 am by eHalcyon »
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GendoIkari

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Re: my cards
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2015, 12:49:27 am »
+2

So this same discussion already happened in-depth here, in regards to Hospital: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12374.0.
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tristan

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Re: my cards
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2015, 03:13:26 am »
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Quote
Given that trashers really only enable engines and aren't actually the thing that makes them tick, I am sure this card would be fine at , but I agree with the people who say it would be really strong at that price point.
Claiming that a mandatory cantrip trasher is a strong 4 implies the claim that either the boni of Junk Dealer as well as Upgrade are fairly insignificant which is obviously utter nonsense or the claim that these cards are strong 5s.
Furthermore it implies the claim that either Ratcatcher would be a decent card at a price of 3 or that the disadvantages of Ratcatcher, waiting 1+ turn(s) and trashing at the start of your turn, are worth a price differential of 2.
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