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Author Topic: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early  (Read 18999 times)

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chogg

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Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« on: January 10, 2012, 10:46:49 am »
0

Recently I had a dream opening: a 5/2 split on a Chapel/Vault/Grand Market/Highway board:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120108-210325-373d8cd6.html

I had a 17-card deck with 8 Grand Markets and 5 Highways after 12 turns.  My opponent then said gg and promptly left.

Two more turns and I would have been virtually guaranteed the coveted MegaTurn achievement on CouncilRoom (with Colonies, no less).  I can understand leaving early in a KC-Masq-Goons pin game, or any unwinnable drawn-out slugfest.  But this board was lightning-fast.  Was it really that important for him to get to the next game?

What do you think are good etiquette guidelines for leaving games early?
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buggibum

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 10:55:01 am »
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I wouldn't put 99 extra rules to the game.

Once you allow people to resign, there is no 2 kinds of resigning.

Ppl resign after seeing your opponent has 5/2 opening on a mountebank/chapel board, others resign when they see they are going to loose. Those achievements are only little goodies and not really achievable goals for the games. Most of them reached are faked, so it doesn't really mean so much.

If there are no punishments for ppl to stay in the game to end it no matter what like flagging, resigning is an option for people who sees they are on the loosing street.
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Kahryl

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2012, 11:15:19 am »
+2

Personally I will not resign a game unless I think the other is purposefully dragging it out for dickish reasons (this has not happened yet).  I think it's poor form.
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theory

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2012, 11:16:50 am »
+3

I think anyone can resign at any time they wish.  They take a loss, you get the win, but don't get to keep playing.  Which is sad, but they have their reasons for resigning.  No one begrudges a chess player because his resignation prevented his opponent from going through the motions of the mate in 5.

Maybe the way to resolve this is to allow you to keep playing solitaire after everyone else resigns.
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Brando Commando

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2012, 11:18:48 am »
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Whatevs. People resign on me, I resign on people. I mean, if I ask you if I can resign, what are you going to say, "no"? So why bother asking? I don't feel offended when people resign on me, either.

It's kind of a waste to not even get to a point where you are sure the other person is going to win, but if you feel like resigning against  a 5/2 opening on a Mountebank/Chapel board, I don't see the big deal.
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barsooma

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 11:42:14 am »
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Sometimes I'll resign before any plays are made, when I realize the board is more boring than I thought or I don't really feel like playing more Dominion ATM.
It's a free win, enjoy it.
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Anon79

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 11:44:32 am »
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Well, I assume you at least got to see "who needs green cards" pop up on isotropic.
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mrdirt73

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 02:09:45 pm »
+1

I typically ask my opponent if they mind me resigning.  I do this because there are games that if I were on the winning side I usually like playing it out.

However, if I ask and am told that you want to play it out, I do expect you to buy provinces when you have $8, and not draw it out hoping for that perfect megaturn.
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barsooma

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 02:19:07 pm »
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A nice addition to isotropic would be the ability to plug one of the simulator bots into your place if you are sick of getting beat down (or just stuck in a mutual quagmire from cursing etc.)
There are many times when I still have a shot at winning but I don't particularly want to go through the motions and even a very sub-optimal bot would be better than resigning.
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tlloyd

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 02:28:28 pm »
+2

We've had this discussion before, but I generally agree with the OP, Kahryl and MrDirt. The question is not "can people resign at any time for any reason?" (Obviously they can). The question is whether etiquette or courtesy has anything to say about whether and how you should. I think few players disagree with the minimal gesture of asking to resign. But most appear to disagree with my view that the response to this request could ever be anything other than "of course." I generally don't resign just because I am sure to lose, and would be willing to request my opponent wait 60 seconds so we can finish a game. But I recognize that both of those actions might appear rude to some people. The fact that people feel differently is itself a support for the view that at minimum courtesy requires more communication than "gg" and a unilateral resignation.
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Epoch

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2012, 03:01:01 pm »
+2

I think few players disagree with the minimal gesture of asking to resign.

I do!

There is no natural right to see your mega-turn play out or whatever else you're hoping for.  All your opponent owes you is the win and, you know, not wasting your time by letting the clock time out or anything.

(Also, separately, I think it's kind of strange to get super-invested in wanting to play turns in a game that's a foregone conclusion.  If I have a complaint about people's resigning behavior, it's that I wish they'd resign faster a lot of the time.  I don't particularly enjoy playing turns while an inevitable loss plays out in slow motion.)
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2012, 03:12:36 pm »
+9

Ugh, this again?  We've settled this.  Those on our side are right, the rest of you are assholes.
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tlloyd

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 03:16:36 pm »
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I think few players disagree with the minimal gesture of asking to resign.

I do!

There is no natural right to see your mega-turn play out or whatever else you're hoping for.  All your opponent owes you is the win and, you know, not wasting your time by letting the clock time out or anything.

(Also, separately, I think it's kind of strange to get super-invested in wanting to play turns in a game that's a foregone conclusion.  If I have a complaint about people's resigning behavior, it's that I wish they'd resign faster a lot of the time.  I don't particularly enjoy playing turns while an inevitable loss plays out in slow motion.)

Fine. But if you know that a non-trivial number of people feel differently, how can it possibly be courteous to resign without even finding out how your opponent feels? Courtesy is, after all, not about what you are allowed to do but how other people will feel about it.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2012, 03:24:36 pm »
+1

I think few players disagree with the minimal gesture of asking to resign.

I do!

There is no natural right to see your mega-turn play out or whatever else you're hoping for.  All your opponent owes you is the win and, you know, not wasting your time by letting the clock time out or anything.

(Also, separately, I think it's kind of strange to get super-invested in wanting to play turns in a game that's a foregone conclusion.  If I have a complaint about people's resigning behavior, it's that I wish they'd resign faster a lot of the time.  I don't particularly enjoy playing turns while an inevitable loss plays out in slow motion.)

Fine. But if you know that a non-trivial number of people feel differently, how can it possibly be courteous to resign without even finding out how your opponent feels? Courtesy is, after all, not about what you are allowed to do but how other people will feel about it.
It's equally possible to make the same argument in the other direction.

chogg

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2012, 03:39:23 pm »
0

Well, I assume you at least got to see "who needs green cards" pop up on isotropic.

Yep, that was my consolation prize.
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tlloyd

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2012, 03:53:16 pm »
0

I think few players disagree with the minimal gesture of asking to resign.

I do!

There is no natural right to see your mega-turn play out or whatever else you're hoping for.  All your opponent owes you is the win and, you know, not wasting your time by letting the clock time out or anything.

(Also, separately, I think it's kind of strange to get super-invested in wanting to play turns in a game that's a foregone conclusion.  If I have a complaint about people's resigning behavior, it's that I wish they'd resign faster a lot of the time.  I don't particularly enjoy playing turns while an inevitable loss plays out in slow motion.)

Fine. But if you know that a non-trivial number of people feel differently, how can it possibly be courteous to resign without even finding out how your opponent feels? Courtesy is, after all, not about what you are allowed to do but how other people will feel about it.
It's equally possible to make the same argument in the other direction.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Mind spelling it out? Does my requesting permission to resign offend someone who feels that such a request is unnecessary? That can't be what you mean...
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Epoch

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2012, 03:54:28 pm »
0

Fine. But if you know that a non-trivial number of people feel differently, how can it possibly be courteous to resign without even finding out how your opponent feels? Courtesy is, after all, not about what you are allowed to do but how other people will feel about it.

My opponent doesn't get to impinge their opinion on whether I choose one of these two possibilities:

1.  Congratulate them on a game well-played and resign.
2.  Continue to play until the end of the game (unless I've mathematically lost)*, and, assuming I do lose, congratulate them on a game well-played.

To the extent that they do have a feeling about it, courtesy demands that they hide such a feeling from me.  To the extent that they do express such an opinion, they're being rude, and I feel entirely entitled to ignore their rude imposition.  I certainly don't want to solicit rudeness from them.

The notion that your opponent can demand that you spend the next five minutes playing out a game that is already over is madness, and is certainly not courteous on the part of your opponent.

This kind of reservation of areas that one is allowed to express an opinion on is a fundamental aspect of courtesy in tons of areas of life.  You also don't get to demand that I forgo eating meat at my house or in a non-vegetarian restaurant, even if you have a moral horror of eating meat.  You don't get to tell me my girlfriend is ugly, even if you honestly think she is.  You don't get to ask me what my salary is, even if you think that it would generally lead to a better world if people were open about their compensation levels.  Similarly, how and when I choose to acknowledge my losses in a game is my business, not yours, and it is irrelevant what your feelings are.  Courtesy, in those cases, are about prioritizing my feelings over yours.

* I'm conflicted about scenarios in which the game is mathematically over, but not technically finished (ie, games without vp chips or variable-point victory cards in which one player has accumulated a majority of all available vp in the game).  I think in my ideal world, isotropic would just end those games right there, but I'm not comfortable with asking people to resign in that circumstance when I'm the winning player.  If I'm the losing player, and I recognize the circumstance, I invariably resign.
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tlloyd

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2012, 04:15:38 pm »
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Fine. But if you know that a non-trivial number of people feel differently, how can it possibly be courteous to resign without even finding out how your opponent feels? Courtesy is, after all, not about what you are allowed to do but how other people will feel about it.

My opponent doesn't get to impinge their opinion on whether I choose one of these two possibilities:

1.  Congratulate them on a game well-played and resign.
2.  Continue to play until the end of the game (unless I've mathematically lost)*, and, assuming I do lose, congratulate them on a game well-played.

To the extent that they do have a feeling about it, courtesy demands that they hide such a feeling from me.  To the extent that they do express such an opinion, they're being rude, and I feel entirely entitled to ignore their rude imposition.  I certainly don't want to solicit rudeness from them.

The notion that your opponent can demand that you spend the next five minutes playing out a game that is already over is madness, and is certainly not courteous on the part of your opponent.

This kind of reservation of areas that one is allowed to express an opinion on is a fundamental aspect of courtesy in tons of areas of life.  You also don't get to demand that I forgo eating meat at my house or in a non-vegetarian restaurant, even if you have a moral horror of eating meat.  You don't get to tell me my girlfriend is ugly, even if you honestly think she is.  You don't get to ask me what my salary is, even if you think that it would generally lead to a better world if people were open about their compensation levels.  Similarly, how and when I choose to acknowledge my losses in a game is my business, not yours, and it is irrelevant what your feelings are.  Courtesy, in those cases, are about prioritizing my feelings over yours.

* I'm conflicted about scenarios in which the game is mathematically over, but not technically finished (ie, games without vp chips or variable-point victory cards in which one player has accumulated a majority of all available vp in the game).  I think in my ideal world, isotropic would just end those games right there, but I'm not comfortable with asking people to resign in that circumstance when I'm the winning player.  If I'm the losing player, and I recognize the circumstance, I invariably resign.

I appreciate your thoughtful response, but I feel it is flawed for two reasons. First, your examples deal with bounds of privacy between strangers, whereas by entering into a game you accept some minimal set of mutual expectations. What those expectations are we are trying to decide, but it's nothing like my telling you your girlfriend is ugly.

Second, it is not illegitimate for a player to expect the game to be played to its conclusion -- while it's also not unreasonable for a different player to prefer the game end as soon as the outcome is probable. Since both views are defensible, you simply can't avoid the imperative to communicate about your expectations/preferences.

I have admitted elsewhere that demanding the other player keep playing would itself be rude, but requesting that they wait briefly would probably not be in most circumstances. Regardless, you cannot unilaterally resign without regard for the expectations of your opponent and still be considered courteous. 
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2012, 04:20:41 pm »
+1

I think few players disagree with the minimal gesture of asking to resign.

I do!

There is no natural right to see your mega-turn play out or whatever else you're hoping for.  All your opponent owes you is the win and, you know, not wasting your time by letting the clock time out or anything.

(Also, separately, I think it's kind of strange to get super-invested in wanting to play turns in a game that's a foregone conclusion.  If I have a complaint about people's resigning behavior, it's that I wish they'd resign faster a lot of the time.  I don't particularly enjoy playing turns while an inevitable loss plays out in slow motion.)

Fine. But if you know that a non-trivial number of people feel differently, how can it possibly be courteous to resign without even finding out how your opponent feels? Courtesy is, after all, not about what you are allowed to do but how other people will feel about it.
It's equally possible to make the same argument in the other direction.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Mind spelling it out? Does my requesting permission to resign offend someone who feels that such a request is unnecessary? That can't be what you mean...
Well, while what you seem to think as absurd is actually quite possible, if somewhat unreasonable, basically my issue is this: you thinking that you have any right over whether or not I choose to resign is wrong. So I shouldn't ask you to resign, because that creates the expectation that I'll abide by your answer, an expectation you otherwise should have no right to.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2012, 04:32:20 pm »
+1

Second, it is not illegitimate for a player to expect the game to be played to its conclusion
Resignation is a conclusion.
Quote
-- while it's also not unreasonable for a different player to prefer the game end as soon as the outcome is probable. Since both views are defensible, you simply can't avoid the imperative to communicate about your expectations/preferences.
But you are assuming an inherent imbalance such that when there is disagreement, the player who wants to keep playing gets his/her way. With no reason for that.
Quote
I have admitted elsewhere that demanding the other player keep playing would itself be rude, but requesting that they wait briefly would probably not be in most circumstances.
A)Define the difference here. B)Why is the second thing not rude?
Quote
Regardless, you cannot unilaterally resign without regard for the expectations of your opponent and still be considered courteous.
Totally unfounded claim. You have no right to consider someone uncourteous for doing something they have every right to do.

Epoch

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2012, 05:04:23 pm »
0

I appreciate your thoughtful response, but I feel it is flawed for two reasons. First, your examples deal with bounds of privacy between strangers, whereas by entering into a game you accept some minimal set of mutual expectations. What those expectations are we are trying to decide, but it's nothing like my telling you your girlfriend is ugly.

While my salary level is a question of privacy, the attractiveness of my girlfriend is clearly not a private matter (I mean, she doesn't wear a veil), and neither is my eating meat.  They're just areas of my life that other people don't get to impinge upon without me inviting them to, and where there's no expectation for me to invite them to answer.  There are a LOT of such areas, those were just a couple of random examples.

The point is, the feelings of other people do not have primacy in terms of courtesy.

In terms of resigning, we're balancing two things:

1.  The feelings of the losing player who, apparently, does not want to wait for the game to play out.
2.  The feelings of the winning player who sometimes wants to see his engine play out.

The reason why #1 takes primacy in this circumstances are a few-fold:

The losing player is already dealing with the disappointment of losing, while the winning player is experiencing the satisfaction of having won.  Asking the player already more disappointed to deal with another minor irritant for the benefit of a player who is already winning seems ungracious at best.

The joy of seeing one's engine come together just seems like it has less value than the irritation of having to sit attentively and push the buttons for a game that is a foregone conclusion.

In general, the broad social rule is that players do not need to play games that they are not enjoying, unless there is a compelling reason why they should.  In the same way that it would not be polite for me to insist that my friends play Dominion with me even if they don't like it (just because I do like it), it is not polite to insist that someone else continue playing a game that they have lost just for your satisfaction.  The exceptions to this are when a player leaving the game has material consequences on the game, rather than just another player enjoying it.

I have admitted elsewhere that demanding the other player keep playing would itself be rude, but requesting that they wait briefly would probably not be in most circumstances. Regardless, you cannot unilaterally resign without regard for the expectations of your opponent and still be considered courteous.

Sure you can.  The expectations of that opponent are unreasonable.  There are plenty of things that my opponent might expect, but where I do not have any obligation to respect their expectations.  As someone's signature on this board notes, "Mountebanks are for jerks."  Some players really dislike cursing attacks.  Others may not appreciate my looking at a board with an interesting but slow engine, and opting instead to Doublejack the game into a quick, largely brainless finish.  Others may expect me to greet them with full sentences and come up with something original to say upon the finish of the game.

Those are all expectations that people have, and they relate to their feelings, but the truth is that courtesy deals with a small number of formal obligations.  "Being a super-great person" may involve a lot more consideration towards your opponent, but courtesy does not.
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tlloyd

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2012, 05:42:26 pm »
0

You have no right to consider someone uncourteous for doing something they have every right to do.

Of all the wrong things you said, this is the most obviously wrong. :D

I have every right to belch at the table, go through a door without holding it open for my wife, or refuse to say please and thank you. The fact that I have the right to do it does not prevent it from being discourteous. Nor is it rude of my mother/spouse/stranger to have expected me to act with consideration for their feelings.

From these discussions I estimate that if you unilaterally resign on Isotropic you will cause no offense the majority of the time, but a significant minority you may. Since it only takes three more seconds to type "mind if I resign?" instead of "gg," refusing to do so is at best inconsiderate and at worst prideful or selfish.

I would bet most conversations would go like this:
A: "mind if I resign?"
B: "no problem"
A: "good win"
B: "thanks for the game"

Or maybe this:

A: "mind if I resign?"
B: "is it okay if I take one more turn?"
A: "sure" or "I'd rather be done"

No matter what B says at this point, I think A can resign courteously.

Was that so hard?
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toaster

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2012, 05:48:07 pm »
0

Is it any less selfish to expect that others ask you before resigning?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2012, 05:57:06 pm »
0

You have no right to consider someone uncourteous for doing something they have every right to do.

Of all the wrong things you said, this is the most obviously wrong. :D

I have every right to belch at the table, go through a door without holding it open for my wife, or refuse to say please and thank you. The fact that I have the right to do it does not prevent it from being discourteous. Nor is it rude of my mother/spouse/stranger to have expected me to act with consideration for their feelings.
No, you have THE right to do those things. Not every right. As in, the strictures of polity, manners, what have you restrict this right from you. Of course, legally, go ahead.

Quote
From these discussions I estimate that if you unilaterally resign on Isotropic you will cause no offense the majority of the time, but a significant minority you may. Since it only takes three more seconds to type "mind if I resign?" instead of "gg," refusing to do so is at best inconsiderate and at worst prideful or selfish.

I would bet most conversations would go like this:
A: "mind if I resign?"
B: "no problem"
A: "good win"
B: "thanks for the game"

Or maybe this:

A: "mind if I resign?"
B: "is it okay if I take one more turn?"
A: "sure" or "I'd rather be done"

No matter what B says at this point, I think A can resign courteously.

Oh I disagree. I think it's EXTREMELY rude to ask someone 'Mind if I do X?" and then, upon their refusal, to ignore. The whole question is pointless if you're going to do the same thing regardless of the answer, which is the case here.
Mind you, I think you can much more reasonably argue that you should tell someone you're going to resign than you can that you have to ask them. There's a huge difference (though I still think you shouldn't have to tell them either).

Epoch

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Re: Discuss: etiquette for leaving games early
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2012, 05:59:17 pm »
0

I have every right to belch at the table, go through a door without holding it open for my wife, or refuse to say please and thank you. The fact that I have the right to do it does not prevent it from being discourteous. Nor is it rude of my mother/spouse/stranger to have expected me to act with consideration for their feelings.

Parsing this a bit finely, you have the legal right to do these things, but perhaps not "every right."  You don't really have "every right" to be discourteous.

Note the important fact that one is expected to have different standards of respect for the feelings of your mother or spouse versus a stranger.  Perhaps to the extent that, if you're trying to understand the hows and wherefors of courtesy, that it does not do much good to lump both under the label "courtesy."

I would bet most conversations would go like this:
A: "mind if I resign?"
B: "no problem"
A: "good win"
B: "thanks for the game"

Or maybe this:

A: "mind if I resign?"
B: "is it okay if I take one more turn?"
A: "sure" or "I'd rather be done"

No matter what B says at this point, I think A can resign courteously.

Was that so hard?

While it is true that there are polite questions which one asks purely as a formality and does not expect the interlocuter to honestly reply ("How are you?" being the most obvious one), these are rather fraught aspects of courteous language, and I don't think it does much good to propagate them.  I'd prefer to leave the question of, "I think this game is over, but you've got an awesome engine going, would you like me to stay in it for your mega-turn?" to be an honest one, which my opponent understands to be one which does not limit their replies.  I would ask that question rarely, probably only in the case of a truly unique engine, certainly not for a routine KC-Bridge megaturn.

Particularly given the inherent friction of chat-based interaction, when asking the question and receiving the answer are a longer process than in face-to-face communication.
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