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Awaclus

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2015, 10:42:54 am »
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Cultist
Fairgrounds
Fool's Gold
Knights
Magpie
Peddler
Rats
Tournament
Transmute
Treasure Map

Cultist isn't that bad even when you only have one of them.

I assume that he listed it for the same reason he listed Fool's Gold, Treasure Map, Rats, Magpie, Transmute, and Knights... it's a card that can't fully do what it says if you only can get one of them. So it becomes just a weaker Witch. I don't think there's anything wrong with that though; it's probably still strong enough that you'd at least consider getting it.

That's what I was saying.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2015, 10:53:58 am »
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Cultist
Fairgrounds
Fool's Gold
Knights
Magpie
Peddler
Rats
Tournament
Transmute
Treasure Map

Cultist isn't that bad even when you only have one of them.

I assume that he listed it for the same reason he listed Fool's Gold, Treasure Map, Rats, Magpie, Transmute, and Knights... it's a card that can't fully do what it says if you only can get one of them. So it becomes just a weaker Witch. I don't think there's anything wrong with that though; it's probably still strong enough that you'd at least consider getting it.

That's what I was saying.

I missed the word "even" in your post; without that it sounds like you were saying that Cultist isn't too strong with only one copy, so no need to prevent just a single player from getting it.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2015, 12:44:38 pm »
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One difficulty with Black Market is managing your other purchases when you don't know which black market cards, if any, will complete your deck. Some people probably like continuously changing their plans as the game develops but I like to consider a bit further ahead. It can also be difficult to learn from any mistakes during a black market game since the different unique cards provide so much variance they can mask the overall deck performance.
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Donald X.

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2015, 02:35:47 pm »
+3

I think, if I actually had Black Market for my home games, I'd ensure the following cards didn't get put into the Black Market deck:
What I personally don't like in the Black Market deck is cards with setup. It's extra-wonky.

In practice though I always just used an expansion. This game, the Black Market has all the Prosperity cards.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2015, 03:21:40 pm »
+1

One difficulty with Black Market is managing your other purchases when you don't know which black market cards, if any, will complete your deck. Some people probably like continuously changing their plans as the game develops but I like to consider a bit further ahead. It can also be difficult to learn from any mistakes during a black market game since the different unique cards provide so much variance they can mask the overall deck performance.

yeah, black market winds up producing a slightly more innovation-like and less dominion-like game. the nice thing about dominion, of course, is that next game will be different.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2015, 11:42:59 pm »
0

Cultist
Fairgrounds
Fool's Gold
Knights
Magpie
Peddler
Rats
Tournament
Transmute
Treasure Map

Cultist isn't that bad even when you only have one of them.

I assume that he listed it for the same reason he listed Fool's Gold, Treasure Map, Rats, Magpie, Transmute, and Knights... it's a card that can't fully do what it says if you only can get one of them. So it becomes just a weaker Witch. I don't think there's anything wrong with that though; it's probably still strong enough that you'd at least consider getting it.

especially if its the only source of ruins.  more-so in a multiplayer game.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 11:44:15 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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funkdoc

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2015, 12:45:58 am »
+1

gotta say, as someone who's just above the "baby" stage with this game, i am awfully close to the stef/SCSN side on black market. i think it creates an element of adaptability that appeals a lot to me as a fighting-game player.  it seems like so often you just can't plan out an entire strategy from the start with black market involved? maybe that's a top-player skill though.

tournament is so much less interesting to me because it seems to reward a rush for an early province, though there's probably skill in transitioning from that to a real engine. i tend to fall into BM-ish strats with it atm

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2015, 01:49:04 am »
0

Honestly, I think Tournament is overrated. I think the main problem lies with both players trying to get to Province first rather than building and playing out the board. Don't get me wrong. On some boards, the card is devastating depending on who wins the first prize.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2015, 08:49:04 am »
0

Honestly, I think Tournament is overrated. I think the main problem lies with both players trying to get to Province first rather than building and playing out the board. Don't get me wrong. On way too many boards, the card is devastating depending on who wins the first prize.

FTFY ;)
That said, I think often it is correct to try to get to 1 Province asap even before building a "real" engine. And then you have that double impact that the guy with the earlier Provinces can choose the best price and block other Tournaments...
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 08:51:04 am by assemble_me »
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2015, 09:34:28 am »
0

If there are strong Attacks (particularly ones that gives +, like Swindler), it's usually better to get those going before you start picking up Tournaments, because they're usually better at helping you get to that early Province.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2015, 09:39:35 am »
0

With Tournament the way I always played it is to grab cards that enable an early Province buy rather than opening Tournament / Silver. IE Baron, Death Cart, etc. Failing that, an attack that gives you $2 (or +2 Cards or something) which both slows your opponent down and helps you get to $8 quickly. Only in the absence of these cards do I really think opening Tournament is necessary - you can grab Tournament at any point up to the time you shuffle your Province in to your deck and it's about the same payoff. Not that a Peddler variant is bad for a deck.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2015, 10:49:07 am »
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People who complain about Black Market should remember that it's just a promo. Somehow promo cards have gotten the same status as regular cards and that's fine for Walled Village, but BM is as promo as promo gets, it's almost a fan card!
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werothegreat

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2015, 01:22:44 pm »
0

"just" a Promo

Dude, Promos are practically their own self-contained set.  You've got a village, a terminal draw, a virtual +Buy, a Kingdom Treasure, an engine-y Remodel/Hero/Lab, and two different Throne Room variants.
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jomini

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2015, 09:27:05 pm »
+1

I like Black Market, of course I love its potential for interactions with playing treasures that I would enjoy it even it just gave a +buy in the middle of the action phase.

What I do not like about Bm is that some percentage of games do have one unique, killer card that is not available to all. Much as it can be fiendishly annoying on Knights boards to have +buys or trashing go to the first buyer.

On the other hand, it is fun how much the dynamics change when building Bm decks - early game cycling becomes insanely good, variability is a given in the deck (both from cards and having treasures in play), and the potential to need to balance buys mid turn with those at the end.

All told Bm tends to be one of the more interesting cards in the game for me.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2015, 11:17:41 pm »
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i'm probably wrong, but BM seems like one of the absolute strongest cards at offsetting big disadvantages from the first 3 shuffles.  so many games feel over to me by turn 8, but hardly ever when that card is involved.

popsofctown

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2015, 09:25:05 am »
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Black Market's unique, killer cards are not all that unique from distinct, killer reshuffle luck in terms of having fate hand you a winner.   
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theJester

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2015, 09:57:53 am »
+1

I love Black Market, for it introcuces whole new level of fun and variety in the games it appears in. There is some luck factor, but IMO it's far from comparable with likes of Swindler, Urchin, Familiar (connecting 3$ and P) or luck of getting 5/2 opening with strong junker on the board.

It's certainly among my top 5 favourite cards.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2015, 07:58:46 pm »
0

I don't know if it necessarily true, but in my opinion Black Market is one of the best engine enablers, ever. So since engines are fun, Black Market is, too.
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jomini

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2015, 05:35:35 pm »
+1

Black Market's unique, killer cards are not all that unique from distinct, killer reshuffle luck in terms of having fate hand you a winner.

Sure they are. If you open 5/2 you clearly have an advantage on a lot of boards, but there are a lot of places where that advantage might be surmounted. For example, you open 5/2, but your Witch misses the first shuffle and I play my T3 Witch before you on T5. More importantly, there are often a lot of tactical adaptations I can try (by cycling instead of +actions, get a second trasher, etc.) in order to attempt to optimize my build against your luck.

With the admittedly uncommon killer unique Black market cards, this sort of equalization may not be possible at all. For an obvious case, say I pull Possession out of the Black market on a board with Masq or Amb. How exactly do you tactically adapt to that? Sure I might take an extra turn to get you a Masq/Amb and take a few Possession plays to line up with whatever are the key cards (Colonies, Goons, villages, etc.), but you pretty much cannot change things. Likewise, if there is no trashing in game except for one Chapel, there just is no way on a lot of boards to compete against a thin reliable deck.

Getting there first is important, often game deciding near equal skill for a lot of other things ... but very rarely do things swing so heavily on just ONE shuffle (stuff like Possession, Kc/Bridge, etc. might come close, but those are rare).
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popsofctown

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2015, 03:04:16 pm »
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Black Market's unique, killer cards are not all that unique from distinct, killer reshuffle luck in terms of having fate hand you a winner.

Sure they are. If you open 5/2 you clearly have an advantage on a lot of boards, but there are a lot of places where that advantage might be surmounted. For example, you open 5/2, but your Witch misses the first shuffle and I play my T3 Witch before you on T5. More importantly, there are often a lot of tactical adaptations I can try (by cycling instead of +actions, get a second trasher, etc.) in order to attempt to optimize my build against your luck.

With the admittedly uncommon killer unique Black market cards, this sort of equalization may not be possible at all. For an obvious case, say I pull Possession out of the Black market on a board with Masq or Amb. How exactly do you tactically adapt to that? Sure I might take an extra turn to get you a Masq/Amb and take a few Possession plays to line up with whatever are the key cards (Colonies, Goons, villages, etc.), but you pretty much cannot change things. Likewise, if there is no trashing in game except for one Chapel, there just is no way on a lot of boards to compete against a thin reliable deck.

Getting there first is important, often game deciding near equal skill for a lot of other things ... but very rarely do things swing so heavily on just ONE shuffle (stuff like Possession, Kc/Bridge, etc. might come close, but those are rare).

Why does it matter if it's one reshuffle or two?  I accept this point: Black Market into Chapel as the only trasher on a board with Conspirator, Worker's Village, and Lab is 100% win rate, opposite player's decisions no longer matter, all in one fishing out of the Black Market deck.

5/2 Embassy into Gold into Gold into Gold into Province into Province into Province into Province into Province also induces a 100% winrate where the other player's decisions no longer matter.  It requires more reshuffles to be controlled, for sure, the characteristics of each reshuffle are critical for the games where Embassy is ridiculous to actually be ridiculous.  The the end result that one player got a 0% winrate irrespective of his own decisions is the same.  No engine has time to try to ramp up try for the Duchy split on those mornings when Embassy wakes up and decides "Today is a good day to mimic Stash"

The only difference is perception, the false decisions that the player facing Embassy perceives as being relevant.  You think, maybe the Gold or Embassy will miss the reshuffle next time, so let me think about what I'm buying, let me maximize my chances of winning.  But you don't know the entire time that none of it will matter. 

With the turn 3 Chapel or turn 3 Witch, you might know that none of it matters right away, although only because you can look through the Black Market deck and find out your fate is actually sealed.  But does playing out the game offer any less value to you than playing out a loss against the Embassy player?  You can still play pretend, you can still think about scenarios in which what you buy does matter, and decide what you would buy in those scenarios.  You will enjoy the same choices as the Embassy victim, and end up with the same loss as the Embassy victim.  Maybe that's what you're into.  But you can also do something the Embassy victim can't do, you can just resign, right away, start a new game.

I'm not going to address Possession Ambassador handing over Province because that's a little bit what if the blue moon rises on the 29th day of February and I get KC-Masquerade-Goons'ed by Elvis, who is still alive, was just set aside  with a Haven that was trashed by a Procession of Prince, in terms of total frequency.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 03:11:15 pm by popsofctown »
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jomini

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2015, 06:57:37 pm »
0

Black Market's unique, killer cards are not all that unique from distinct, killer reshuffle luck in terms of having fate hand you a winner.

Sure they are. If you open 5/2 you clearly have an advantage on a lot of boards, but there are a lot of places where that advantage might be surmounted. For example, you open 5/2, but your Witch misses the first shuffle and I play my T3 Witch before you on T5. More importantly, there are often a lot of tactical adaptations I can try (by cycling instead of +actions, get a second trasher, etc.) in order to attempt to optimize my build against your luck.

With the admittedly uncommon killer unique Black market cards, this sort of equalization may not be possible at all. For an obvious case, say I pull Possession out of the Black market on a board with Masq or Amb. How exactly do you tactically adapt to that? Sure I might take an extra turn to get you a Masq/Amb and take a few Possession plays to line up with whatever are the key cards (Colonies, Goons, villages, etc.), but you pretty much cannot change things. Likewise, if there is no trashing in game except for one Chapel, there just is no way on a lot of boards to compete against a thin reliable deck.

Getting there first is important, often game deciding near equal skill for a lot of other things ... but very rarely do things swing so heavily on just ONE shuffle (stuff like Possession, Kc/Bridge, etc. might come close, but those are rare).

Why does it matter if it's one reshuffle or two?  I accept this point: Black Market into Chapel as the only trasher on a board with Conspirator, Worker's Village, and Lab is 100% win rate, opposite player's decisions no longer matter, all in one fishing out of the Black Market deck.

5/2 Embassy into Gold into Gold into Gold into Province into Province into Province into Province into Province also induces a 100% winrate where the other player's decisions no longer matter.  It requires more reshuffles to be controlled, for sure, the characteristics of each reshuffle are critical for the games where Embassy is ridiculous to actually be ridiculous.  The the end result that one player got a 0% winrate irrespective of his own decisions is the same.  No engine has time to try to ramp up try for the Duchy split on those mornings when Embassy wakes up and decides "Today is a good day to mimic Stash"

The only difference is perception, the false decisions that the player facing Embassy perceives as being relevant.  You think, maybe the Gold or Embassy will miss the reshuffle next time, so let me think about what I'm buying, let me maximize my chances of winning.  But you don't know the entire time that none of it will matter. 

With the turn 3 Chapel or turn 3 Witch, you might know that none of it matters right away, although only because you can look through the Black Market deck and find out your fate is actually sealed.  But does playing out the game offer any less value to you than playing out a loss against the Embassy player?  You can still play pretend, you can still think about scenarios in which what you buy does matter, and decide what you would buy in those scenarios.  You will enjoy the same choices as the Embassy victim, and end up with the same loss as the Embassy victim.  Maybe that's what you're into.  But you can also do something the Embassy victim can't do, you can just resign, right away, start a new game.

I'm not going to address Possession Ambassador handing over Province because that's a little bit what if the blue moon rises on the 29th day of February and I get KC-Masquerade-Goons'ed by Elvis, who is still alive, was just set aside  with a Haven that was trashed by a Procession of Prince, in terms of total frequency.

Really? This is the best you've got?

Embassy may well hit a province every turn from T2. But as was shown in the puzzle section, there are strategies that can beat that with the worst possible luck. You are still inhabiting the same decision matrix, just with different tactical decisions and risk-reward ratios.

In contrast, pulling the only trasher out of the Black Market, or the only big gainer (e.g. Market square) with Bishop out in the kingdom or Masquerade when you have discard and an engine already out are things that place you and your opponent in different decision matrices. There are other times in Dominion where this happens: Possession in multiplayer games, Knights, and Prizes ... and shockingly all those mechanics are often viewed less favorably by folks who prefer other very nice elements of dominion.

But if you want to go with the simplistic "its all shuffle luck, so why play at all school", the degeneracy of the Black Market deck is the lowest of any shuffle that occurs in the game. When it comes to unique outcomes, the shuffle luck of the Bm deck is orders of magnitude more "unique" than any other shuffle in a normal game.
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