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Roadrunner7671

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Black Market
« on: September 17, 2015, 03:23:32 pm »
+1

Man, I don't understand why people hate on Balck Market. It's a luck based card, that is true, but Dominion is a game that combines luck with skill. It's lucky to hit $8 in a BM game or to draw 3 Estates with your Chapel, but people don't hate Chapel for that, do they?

Before I even knew of Black Market (or of promo cards at all) my mother and I played Dominion. We had nine kingdom piles and one pile with 10 random cards in it that we did not see at the beginning of the game. It made the game a ton of fun. Yes, it's very unlucky if your opponent gets a curser or trasher out of the Black Market deck, but you can go for Black Market as well!

Black Market is also fun because it lets you play your Treasure cards during your action phase. This makes a lot of cards awesome, including Tactican, Quarry, Royal Seal, and possibly Diadem. You can also avoid it IRL by not buying it. If you hate Cultist but you love Dark Ages, you are out of luck. If you hate Black Market, don't purchase it to play with. In Dominion Online, there are many ways to not care about Black Market:
1. Don't buy it and build an engine with the 9 other cards.
2. Realize that you play very very few games with Black Market.
3. Veto Black Market (or don't play with it).
4. Go for Black Market because you have the action space or are doing a Poor House thing. You might get something good, but you will always get two coins.

That's just my inexperienced two cents on Black Market, I'm sure if someone disagrees with me they will say why.
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Awaclus

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2015, 03:24:51 pm »
0

Man, I don't understand why people hate on Balck Market. It's a luck based card, that is true, but Dominion is a game that combines luck with skill. It's lucky to hit $8 in a BM game or to draw 3 Estates with your Chapel, but people don't hate Chapel for that, do they?

I sort of do, actually.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2015, 03:35:37 pm »
0



I sort of do, actually.
You have a black belt in unhelpness. I'm *almost* positive that you are the 2% minority and that experienced players (like yourself) generally cry with happiness when they see Chapel on the board.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2015, 04:29:34 pm »
0

Man, I don't understand why people hate on Balck Market.

Poor taste, unfortunately, is an all too common affliction.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2015, 07:04:52 pm »
+5

It's the single greatest card in the game, and it's not very close. No other card makes most of the boards it appears in automatically interesting and fun.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2015, 07:08:51 pm »
+5

Black market's quality is a hotly contested issue in the upcoming Tuvaluan chieftain election. Currently the fascist party supports the assertion that black market is an unfun card while the objectively correct party is in favor of black market.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 07:09:57 pm by jsh357 »
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2015, 07:38:04 pm »
+1

I despise luck-based cards (Swindler and Urchin come to mind), but i looooove Black Market.  Like, it is my favorite card by a lot (Bishop comes in at a distant 2nd).  I just love the possibilities it gives you.  And that's basically how I see it -- it doesn't add luck to the game as much as it adds possibilities.  You have to have a legitimate reason to ignore 25 kingdom cards.  And like you mention, it adds other neat mechanics to the game (in addition to what you mentioned: draw-up-to-x, Menagerie, exclusive access to Prizes, etc.).

Who really dislikes it?  I'd be curious to know why, especially if it were for other reasons besides just the luck factor.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2015, 07:53:03 pm »
+4

I despise luck-based cards (Swindler and Urchin come to mind), but i looooove Black Market.  Like, it is my favorite card by a lot (Bishop comes in at a distant 2nd).  I just love the possibilities it gives you.  And that's basically how I see it -- it doesn't add luck to the game as much as it adds possibilities.  You have to have a legitimate reason to ignore 25 kingdom cards.  And like you mention, it adds other neat mechanics to the game (in addition to what you mentioned: draw-up-to-x, Menagerie, exclusive access to Prizes, etc.).

Who really dislikes it?  I'd be curious to know why, especially if it were for other reasons besides just the luck factor.

I favor AdamH's view:  it isn't the luck aspect of Black Market that's the major problem, it's the *exclusivity* aspect.  One of the big points of Dominion is that everyone has access to the same cards in each game.  Sure, there are piles where who gets to them *first* is a factor, but except in weird cases, you'll always have the chance to buy every card on the board.

Black Market and Tournament both break that part of the basic premise of Dominion.  That's the reason I find both distasteful.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2015, 08:07:39 pm »
+1

I despise luck-based cards (Swindler and Urchin come to mind), but i looooove Black Market.  Like, it is my favorite card by a lot (Bishop comes in at a distant 2nd).  I just love the possibilities it gives you.  And that's basically how I see it -- it doesn't add luck to the game as much as it adds possibilities.  You have to have a legitimate reason to ignore 25 kingdom cards.  And like you mention, it adds other neat mechanics to the game (in addition to what you mentioned: draw-up-to-x, Menagerie, exclusive access to Prizes, etc.).

Who really dislikes it?  I'd be curious to know why, especially if it were for other reasons besides just the luck factor.

I favor AdamH's view:  it isn't the luck aspect of Black Market that's the major problem, it's the *exclusivity* aspect.  One of the big points of Dominion is that everyone has access to the same cards in each game.  Sure, there are piles where who gets to them *first* is a factor, but except in weird cases, you'll always have the chance to buy every card on the board.

Black Market and Tournament both break that part of the basic premise of Dominion.  That's the reason I find both distasteful.

But I would say being the first to get that Witch, or Mercenary, or Platinum, or whatever, can swing the game just as much as getting that Followers, or that Chapel from the BM deck, etc. does.

Also, Knights are exclusive, but I like them.  They add elements and mechanics to the game that can make for a very interesting, complicated, and fun match.  If people don't care for that exclusivity, then that's just a difference in taste I guess.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2015, 08:15:26 pm »
+5

I despise luck-based cards (Swindler and Urchin come to mind), but i looooove Black Market.  Like, it is my favorite card by a lot (Bishop comes in at a distant 2nd).  I just love the possibilities it gives you.  And that's basically how I see it -- it doesn't add luck to the game as much as it adds possibilities.  You have to have a legitimate reason to ignore 25 kingdom cards.  And like you mention, it adds other neat mechanics to the game (in addition to what you mentioned: draw-up-to-x, Menagerie, exclusive access to Prizes, etc.).

Who really dislikes it?  I'd be curious to know why, especially if it were for other reasons besides just the luck factor.

I favor AdamH's view:  it isn't the luck aspect of Black Market that's the major problem, it's the *exclusivity* aspect.  One of the big points of Dominion is that everyone has access to the same cards in each game.  Sure, there are piles where who gets to them *first* is a factor, but except in weird cases, you'll always have the chance to buy every card on the board.

Black Market and Tournament both break that part of the basic premise of Dominion.  That's the reason I find both distasteful.

This only works at an extremely superficial level, it's a not a "basic premise of Dominion". A turn 1 Trading Post is an entirely different beast than a turn 3 one, and not even related to a turn 5 one. Players are always getting uneven opportunities, all the time, every game. That's what Dominion is about, trying to manage those asymmetries so you win.
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AdamH

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2015, 08:37:54 pm »
+8

I despise luck-based cards (Swindler and Urchin come to mind), but i looooove Black Market.  Like, it is my favorite card by a lot (Bishop comes in at a distant 2nd).  I just love the possibilities it gives you.  And that's basically how I see it -- it doesn't add luck to the game as much as it adds possibilities.  You have to have a legitimate reason to ignore 25 kingdom cards.  And like you mention, it adds other neat mechanics to the game (in addition to what you mentioned: draw-up-to-x, Menagerie, exclusive access to Prizes, etc.).

Who really dislikes it?  I'd be curious to know why, especially if it were for other reasons besides just the luck factor.

I favor AdamH's view:  it isn't the luck aspect of Black Market that's the major problem, it's the *exclusivity* aspect.  One of the big points of Dominion is that everyone has access to the same cards in each game.  Sure, there are piles where who gets to them *first* is a factor, but except in weird cases, you'll always have the chance to buy every card on the board.

Black Market and Tournament both break that part of the basic premise of Dominion.  That's the reason I find both distasteful.

This only works at an extremely superficial level, it's a not a "basic premise of Dominion". A turn 1 Trading Post is an entirely different beast than a turn 3 one, and not even related to a turn 5 one. Players are always getting uneven opportunities, all the time, every game. That's what Dominion is about, trying to manage those asymmetries so you win.

Sure, I get that. I just don't like the particular asymmetry where one person can get a card and nobody else can. Is it because I find it unfair? No. YMYOSL. To win you have to manipulate that and capitalize on it. I just don't like it. It's how I feel. My mommy always told me it's OK to be different and that I'm a special snowflake. I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2015, 10:49:18 pm »
+2

You're getting better at this, Adam!
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2015, 10:57:08 pm »
0

This only works at an extremely superficial level, it's a not a "basic premise of Dominion". A turn 1 Trading Post is an entirely different beast than a turn 3 one, and not even related to a turn 5 one. Players are always getting uneven opportunities, all the time, every game. That's what Dominion is about, trying to manage those asymmetries so you win.

You have a point, but there is a gigantic difference between asymmetrical opportunities and unique opportunities.  And even if it's not perhaps a premise per se--I don't know if Donald has said that or not--I do think the idea of a Magic-like game without the fundamental inequalities of Magic is a huge part of the game's draw.  It's one of the reasons that Ascension and Star Realms are so inferior.
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Donald X.

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2015, 12:21:55 am »
+9

You have a point, but there is a gigantic difference between asymmetrical opportunities and unique opportunities.  And even if it's not perhaps a premise per se--I don't know if Donald has said that or not--I do think the idea of a Magic-like game without the fundamental inequalities of Magic is a huge part of the game's draw.  It's one of the reasons that Ascension and Star Realms are so inferior.
The premise was a game where you build a deck while playing, with everything of yours in your deck. You can read all the details, including a bit about me considering and rejecting what is now Ascension-style card access, in the secret history: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8619.0.

The fact that normally a card is accessible to all players all game (until running out) makes it cool to make a card that breaks that. It's one card and easy to not play with. It's a promo even.

It's a general rule of games where the rules change, that I've learned the hard way, that there is only so far you can go before many people don't like how far you went. For some people Black Market goes too far for Dominion and well. If there were no cards anyone hated, there would be no cards anyone loved either. Black Market is cited as a favorite card a lot and is not quite so far up there on the hated list. I consider it a success. I should get the wording fixed someday though.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2015, 05:41:30 am »
+1

I favor AdamH's view:  it isn't the luck aspect of Black Market that's the major problem, it's the *exclusivity* aspect.  One of the big points of Dominion is that everyone has access to the same cards in each game.  Sure, there are piles where who gets to them *first* is a factor, but except in weird cases, you'll always have the chance to buy every card on the board.

Black Market and Tournament both break that part of the basic premise of Dominion.  That's the reason I find both distasteful.

The thing I like with Black Market is the variety it gives to a board, with unique cards to put in your deck. But I'm also not that fond of the exclusitivy aspect, and I think I would have preferred everyone to have their own BM deck with one each of the BM cards selected for this game.  Then they shouldn't be more than perhaps ~20, so you have a decent shot of finding your own copy of That Important Card that you opponent(s) already are using.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2015, 08:44:50 am »
+3

Man, I don't understand why people hate on Balck Market.

Poor taste, unfortunately, is an all too common affliction.

are you referring to the Urban dictionary sex act http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=balck
or the Nazi general https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Balck.


I guess both are in pretty poor taste...
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2015, 08:46:21 am »
0

I despise luck-based cards (Swindler and Urchin come to mind), but i looooove Black Market.  Like, it is my favorite card by a lot (Bishop comes in at a distant 2nd).  I just love the possibilities it gives you.  And that's basically how I see it -- it doesn't add luck to the game as much as it adds possibilities.  You have to have a legitimate reason to ignore 25 kingdom cards.  And like you mention, it adds other neat mechanics to the game (in addition to what you mentioned: draw-up-to-x, Menagerie, exclusive access to Prizes, etc.).

Who really dislikes it?  I'd be curious to know why, especially if it were for other reasons besides just the luck factor.

I'm curious as to why you think Urchin is any more luck based than any other card?
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2015, 08:48:07 am »
0

I despise luck-based cards (Swindler and Urchin come to mind), but i looooove Black Market.  Like, it is my favorite card by a lot (Bishop comes in at a distant 2nd).  I just love the possibilities it gives you.  And that's basically how I see it -- it doesn't add luck to the game as much as it adds possibilities.  You have to have a legitimate reason to ignore 25 kingdom cards.  And like you mention, it adds other neat mechanics to the game (in addition to what you mentioned: draw-up-to-x, Menagerie, exclusive access to Prizes, etc.).

Who really dislikes it?  I'd be curious to know why, especially if it were for other reasons besides just the luck factor.

I favor AdamH's view:  it isn't the luck aspect of Black Market that's the major problem, it's the *exclusivity* aspect.  One of the big points of Dominion is that everyone has access to the same cards in each game.  Sure, there are piles where who gets to them *first* is a factor, but except in weird cases, you'll always have the chance to buy every card on the board.

Black Market and Tournament both break that part of the basic premise of Dominion.  That's the reason I find both distasteful.

Totally agree.  Nothing makes a game more one sided than one guy getting the only tournament/KC/Prince  or even curser/looter when no others are available on the board
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2015, 08:50:33 am »
0

I favor AdamH's view:  it isn't the luck aspect of Black Market that's the major problem, it's the *exclusivity* aspect.  One of the big points of Dominion is that everyone has access to the same cards in each game.  Sure, there are piles where who gets to them *first* is a factor, but except in weird cases, you'll always have the chance to buy every card on the board.

Black Market and Tournament both break that part of the basic premise of Dominion.  That's the reason I find both distasteful.

The thing I like with Black Market is the variety it gives to a board, with unique cards to put in your deck. But I'm also not that fond of the exclusitivy aspect, and I think I would have preferred everyone to have their own BM deck with one each of the BM cards selected for this game.  Then they shouldn't be more than perhaps ~20, so you have a decent shot of finding your own copy of That Important Card that you opponent(s) already are using.

somehow I never even considered this, but this alone would make the card much better IMHO.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Black Market
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2015, 09:23:11 am »
0

I think, if I actually had Black Market for my home games, I'd ensure the following cards didn't get put into the Black Market deck:

Cultist
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Knights
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2015, 09:32:54 am »
+9

The only thing I'd change about Black Market is to add some Black Markets to the Black Market so you can Black Market a Black Market with a different Black Market deck.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2015, 09:39:33 am »
+5

The only thing I'd change about Black Market is to add some Black Markets to the Black Market so you can Black Market a Black Market with a different Black Market deck.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2015, 10:01:34 am »
+1

The only thing I'd change about Black Market is to add some Black Markets to the Black Market so you can Black Market a Black Market with a different Black Market deck.

Xzibit will also provide the Royal Seal and cantrip.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2015, 10:29:11 am »
+1

Cultist
Fairgrounds
Fool's Gold
Knights
Magpie
Peddler
Rats
Tournament
Transmute
Treasure Map

Cultist isn't that bad even when you only have one of them.
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Re: Black Market
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2015, 10:38:36 am »
0

Cultist
Fairgrounds
Fool's Gold
Knights
Magpie
Peddler
Rats
Tournament
Transmute
Treasure Map

Cultist isn't that bad even when you only have one of them.

I assume that he listed it for the same reason he listed Fool's Gold, Treasure Map, Rats, Magpie, Transmute, and Knights... it's a card that can't fully do what it says if you only can get one of them. So it becomes just a weaker Witch. I don't think there's anything wrong with that though; it's probably still strong enough that you'd at least consider getting it.
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