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Author Topic: Mario Maker  (Read 101974 times)

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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #275 on: April 10, 2020, 11:21:51 am »
0

It doesn't take close to the full 100 seconds does it? Didn't think to take a look at the clear check time. Takes about 25 seconds to get to the thwomp room I think; which is getting close to how long I feel like I can do a bunch of hard stuff without a checkpoint, before it just becomes too hard.

No, I think there's 3 more rooms after the thwomp room.
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #276 on: April 10, 2020, 11:48:52 am »
+1

I saw the first room with thwomps, and thought, "I remember gendo being able to beat much more difficult levels."

Then I got to the thwomp room.

Which is tight, but I haven't had too much difficulty with it.

Haven't made it past the boo room though.

Fun level. Break to walk the dogs then back to trying to get that first clear! You can always take a course record, but you can't take a first clear
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #277 on: April 10, 2020, 11:56:35 am »
+1

I saw the first room with thwomps, and thought, "I remember gendo being able to beat much more difficult levels."

Then I got to the thwomp room.

Which is tight, but I haven't had too much difficulty with it.

Haven't made it past the boo room though.

Fun level. Break to walk the dogs then back to trying to get that first clear! You can always take a course record, but you can't take a first clear

You're going to make me regret giving up last night, aren't you? Yeah like I mentioned; really out of practice.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 01:53:57 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #278 on: April 10, 2020, 01:39:14 pm »
+1

Got it! Once I figured out how to get past the boo room it was just one death per room to figure out the mechanic and get through.

Awesome level!
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #279 on: April 16, 2020, 02:04:17 am »
+2

New level: VP0-TK7-BHF

A quick note I couldn't fit in the description: The bullet bill isn't consistent, but you can always make that jump, you just can't trust the indicator, and likewise for the goomba immediately following it.
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #280 on: April 17, 2020, 01:04:27 pm »
+1

My first level!

It is relatively easy to clear, but more difficult to get the red coins. Red coins are optional

NJ5-GJF-JLF
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #281 on: April 17, 2020, 06:28:42 pm »
+1

My first level!

It is relatively easy to clear, but more difficult to get the red coins. Red coins are optional

NJ5-GJF-JLF

Any feedback is appreciated, being my first course.  My thought going in was make it a relatively easy course with an optional hard mode (the red coins). Did it work? Should I just commit harder or easier? We're there too many different types of challenges for the red coins? Were they too similar? Looking to improve for my next course
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #282 on: April 18, 2020, 11:19:36 am »
+1

New level: VP0-TK7-BHF

A quick note I couldn't fit in the description: The bullet bill isn't consistent, but you can always make that jump, you just can't trust the indicator, and likewise for the goomba immediately following it.

Good stuff. The hardest part was just getting consistent on when you had to get a lot of momentum to go far enough right. Also at the beginning, I kept bonking into the music blocks as they were being pushed down by the shell above it... that was super annoying. No issues with the launcher at all.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #283 on: April 18, 2020, 11:29:56 am »
+3

My first level!

It is relatively easy to clear, but more difficult to get the red coins. Red coins are optional

NJ5-GJF-JLF

Any feedback is appreciated, being my first course.  My thought going in was make it a relatively easy course with an optional hard mode (the red coins). Did it work? Should I just commit harder or easier? We're there too many different types of challenges for the red coins? Were they too similar? Looking to improve for my next course

I stole the record from scott_pilgrim.

I wouldn’t be the best judge of this style of level because it’s not the style I enjoy much.

One issue with having the red coins as an optional way to make the level harder is that you can’t tell which paths are just for a red coin and which path is the way to the end, at least not until you get to the end of a particular path and find out it was just a red coin. So unless you just get lucky and find the right path the first time, you end up having to do some of the hard red coin challenges anyway. You just don’t have to do them more than once.

I never got all the red coins, but I got a few. A couple other critiques:

The room with the snake block bumpers is really slow. And when you first get there, you don’t know if the snake block is required. I died the first time by bouncing up the bumpers, thinking that would be a faster way to avoid waiting for the snake. But that just bounces you into spikes that you can’t see until it is too late. To actually beat the room requires a lot of patience waiting for the snake.

Hammer brothers in general are not a good enemy if just placed around. They add some randomness, and you can die to a very unfairly-timed hammer through while trying to jump on or over them.

In the required path, the part with the bullets was a bit spammy. I never made it through without using a mushroom for an invincibility boost.

But again, my opinion won’t be the best here due to the type of level you were building.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #284 on: April 18, 2020, 04:50:03 pm »
+1

I agree with Gendo for the most part. I didn't do all of the red coins, and also didn't know which way to go to find the end and spent a long time working on one of the red coins thinking it would be the path to the end. I also think hammer bros. are the worst type of enemy. As far as I could tell, the intended path to the end was to hit the P switch, do some zig-zag to get to the part with the vines and cannons, and then go through the thwomp area. But the vine/cannon and thwomp areas seemed nearly impossible to get everything to line up in such a way that you could get through safely, so the only way I was able to do it was by getting the fire flower in the claw, damage boosting through the vine/cannon section, and then damage boosting through the thwomp/hammer bro/podobo/cannon area. I'm not sure if there was an intended way that would have been easier, but sometimes things that seem obvious to the level creator are not obvious to the player.

I don't usually play many exploration-type levels, but I do think you did a very good job with that and the level looked very nice aesthetically, but I think that type of level needs to be easier in order to keep the player's interest. Once I found the path to the end I gave up on the red coins because I knew I wouldn't be able to get them all anyway and getting to the end seemed hard enough already.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #285 on: April 19, 2020, 11:51:23 am »
0

I made a few attempts to do a run getting all the coins, but it got boring because of the snake block coin.
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #286 on: April 20, 2020, 10:59:00 pm »
+2

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #287 on: April 22, 2020, 11:28:56 pm »
+3

My first level!

It is relatively easy to clear, but more difficult to get the red coins. Red coins are optional

NJ5-GJF-JLF

I'm a person who enjoys traditional levels, so I think I might be the target audience for your course? I agree with almost everything Gendo said, though. (The one point I disagree on is that I think Hammer Bros are fine when used carefully. More on using enemies carefully in a bit.)

I'm not terrible at Mario and neither am I an expert speedrunner. I would not call this level easy to clear. I finally got to the final Thwomp/Lava Bubble/cannon area and died (again) there. So I'm giving up for now. (EDIT: I followed scott_pilgrim's advice and got the Fire Flower and was able to beat it with invincibility frames. Not ideal, but at least I've cleared it. I'd ignored the Fire Flower before because it didn't seem worth the risk, but it wasn't actually that hard to get once I tried.)

I'm not entirely sure who your target audience is, but I'm going forward with the assumption that it's people who like traditional levels. So I'll give some specific feedback based on that assumption. And I'm mostly just going to address the path to the goal, not the red coin paths, since I only tried a few of those and didn't make it to the end of any of them.

First, you use two or three enemies in places where one would do. This is basically ubiquitous throughout the level. Like the very first Koopas, you only need the top red one. The other ones are just clutter. Every block that has two Spike Tops probably only needs one. That spot near the end has two Dry Bones, which is great for keeping players on their toes while trying to figure out when to approach the Hammer Bro, but one would do the job. And maybe just one giant Lava Bubble at the end between the Thwomps.

The level lacks a feeling of cohesion. There are lots of types on enemies, most of which you only see once. It makes the level feel thrown together, even though it's obvious you put some work into it. Since a lot of the enemies in this level just serve to be general obstacles, you could replace many of them with one type. Dry Bones, perhaps. The Koopas and Goombas could all by Dry Bones and the level would play similarly. That would be one possible step toward giving the level a theme of sorts.

I would avoid challenges that require you to be small Mario. (Again I'm assuming you're trying to make a challenging traditional level.) There's a spot in the snake block room where you can't get through the spikes as Super Mario, for instance.

I would either only point arrows toward the goal or only toward red coins. Right now they seem to be a weird mix of both, making for inconsistent leading. And on a tangent, I would include more regular coins just for getting. Nice to have some coins in a level.

Still on the topic of coins, I recommend against putting 10-coin blocks in levels unless they fill a specific purpose. When placed randomly into a level, they're boring time-wasters that some players will nevertheless feel compelled to collect. I mean if they're playing Endless Challenge mode or whatever, they may need those coins. So they'll jump up to where the giant Spike is, probably take it out, and then spend several seconds collecting 30 coins from those three blocks. And then they'll die and have to do it again. If I'm putting a 10-coin block in my level, it's for one of three reasons. First, it can be fun if it's a challenge to actually collect all ten coins. This means either there's a persistent hazard, some tricky platforming, or auto-scroll. Your giant Spike maybe works that way once, but on subsequent attempts it's obvious they should take it out first. Second, I may place a 10-coin block if there's an unavoidable lull in gameplay (usually in an auto-scroll level, but maybe due to moving platforms or something) and I want to give the player something to do while they wait. Third, they can be useful if I want to make the player stay in one spot for a couple seconds. If it's an auto-scroll level, I might want to keep the player from hugging the right side of the screen and getting killed by an enemy that spawns there. I also have one at the start of the third part of my Chomp Cavern level in hopes that the player will look at what's in front of them before rushing in, but I think I may take that one out. Anyway this wall of text is just my personal guidelines for 10-coin blocks, and not hard-and-fast rules. I'll still include the occasional 10-coins in a regular brick block just as a cool surprise for curious players, though even then I want some threats nearby to keep them on their toes.

I guess this sort of turned into a 10-coin block treatise. Anyway, I really highly recommend going through all the Yamamura's Dojo tutorial things if you do want to make some traditional levels. I consider myself a reasonably good course designer, but I still learned a lot from them. One standout thing I learned was making your power-ups matter in order to make them more fun. In my first version of Piranha Pirates on the Wii U Mario Maker, I had Super Leaves instead of Fire Flowers because I thought the Fire Flowers would make taking out the Piranha Plants too easy. But after watching the video, I changed them because (1) fireballing Piranha Plants is fun and (2) the level is challenging enough even with that power-up. If you want something more engaging, you could watch some YouTube videos on the subject of Mario Maker course design.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 09:00:06 am by LastFootnote »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #288 on: April 23, 2020, 02:23:59 am »
+1

Made a level with the new stuff; specifically SMB2.

S65-9JH-76G

A 20 second speed run. Probably not very hard, but then again I did play it a lot while building it.  Only took me a couple hours total; so not as much care as I put into my other levels; though it’s also a much shorter level.

Also spent a while building a boss battle involving the laser mechakoopas. Now I need to build the rest of the level.
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #289 on: April 23, 2020, 07:02:50 am »
+2

Thanks for all the feedback, I will definitely incorporate it into future levels
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #290 on: April 23, 2020, 03:19:45 pm »
0

Made a level with the new stuff; specifically SMB2.

S65-9JH-76G

A 20 second speed run. Probably not very hard, but then again I did play it a lot while building it.  Only took me a couple hours total; so not as much care as I put into my other levels; though it’s also a much shorter level.

I don't know anything about SMB2 (this is the first level I've played with it) but I can't figure out what to do with the pow block. It looks like I'm supposed to set it down on the cloud to get enough height to reach the platform or something, but it doesn't seem to be possible to set it down without throwing.

I'm also definitely not doing the first part right, but I don't know yet if it's cheese because it's probably slower than the intended way and I don't know how tight the timer is. I don't know how to kill the piranha plant, so I've just been carrying the turtle with me on the cannonball (instead of throwing at the throw indicator) until I'm close enough to jump into it with the turtle above me, killing it with the turtle. But maybe the level would make more sense to me if I knew anything about what you can do with the SMB2 power-up, like I said all I know about it is from experimenting while playing your level. Seems like a fun level otherwise.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #291 on: April 23, 2020, 04:19:44 pm »
+1

Made a level with the new stuff; specifically SMB2.

S65-9JH-76G

A 20 second speed run. Probably not very hard, but then again I did play it a lot while building it.  Only took me a couple hours total; so not as much care as I put into my other levels; though it’s also a much shorter level.

I don't know anything about SMB2 (this is the first level I've played with it) but I can't figure out what to do with the pow block. It looks like I'm supposed to set it down on the cloud to get enough height to reach the platform or something, but it doesn't seem to be possible to set it down without throwing.

I'm also definitely not doing the first part right, but I don't know yet if it's cheese because it's probably slower than the intended way and I don't know how tight the timer is. I don't know how to kill the piranha plant, so I've just been carrying the turtle with me on the cannonball (instead of throwing at the throw indicator) until I'm close enough to jump into it with the turtle above me, killing it with the turtle. But maybe the level would make more sense to me if I knew anything about what you can do with the SMB2 power-up, like I said all I know about it is from experimenting while playing your level. Seems like a fun level otherwise.

You must not know about super jumps! In the original SMB2, as well as in Mario Maker with the powerup, if you duck for about a full second; you will start to flash. If you then jump, you will jump higher than normal. The down arrow is supposed to be an indicator for that, but no real way you could ever know that unless you just know that it's a move in your move set. Eventually the community will come up with a standard "super-jump" indicator. I can see extra confusion since you would be holding an item, and could indeed think that the down arrow means to set it down.

For the beginning you should be killing the piranha plant by holding the canonball in your hands after jumping off the turtle shell. It's the same basic way of killing it, but indeed riding the canonball all the way across the spikes will be too slow for the timer. Immediately after the "throw left" indicator is a "grab" indicator, you need to pick up the canonball while riding on it, falling down onto the shell. Almost immediately after throwing the shell.

Originally the idea was to have to throw the canonball into the piranha plant to kill it; I then discovered by accident that even if you don't throw it, just running into it kills it. I guess that makes sense; it's the same as holding a shell or galoomba in Mario 3 or World and running into another enemy.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 04:21:01 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #292 on: April 23, 2020, 06:04:55 pm »
+1

Indeed, I was not aware of super jumps. I also had not figured out that the p block indicator was telling me to grab something, which is why I couldn't figure out the first part. That part is pretty cool when done correctly! And the timer is pretty tight; I once timed it between pulling the last cloud and actually touching the flagpole. My only complaint is that the piranha plant seems a little low, I found it slightly awkward to do a small enough jump to be able to kill it without taking damage. Overall good level though! Thanks for the tips!
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #293 on: April 23, 2020, 07:21:05 pm »
0

The closest I got while still timing out was just after pulling the first cloud. My goal was to make something that would take around 19.5 seconds if done well.

The momentum jumping off of the moving shell definitely made it hard to know where to put the piranha. I’ve seen some videos of other SMB 2 levels that show some really weird momentum stuff due to riding on enemies.
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #294 on: April 27, 2020, 01:53:15 am »
0

Another new level!

RYM-263-YNF

This one featuring the new mechakoopas. You have to carry one through the whole level, then deal with a boss battle based somewhat on Cuphead’s Devil battle.
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #295 on: May 08, 2020, 04:12:49 pm »
0

OK, a new level: 713-KHH-CQF

This one is meant to be pretty difficult, so I'd appreciate any feedback. You have to beat any 4 of the 7 bosses to complete it. If there's feedback I want to implement, I'll re-upload it and post the new code. I've already done that once after a friend of mine ran through it.
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #296 on: May 09, 2020, 12:38:24 am »
+1

OK, a new level: 713-KHH-CQF

This one is meant to be pretty difficult, so I'd appreciate any feedback. You have to beat any 4 of the 7 bosses to complete it. If there's feedback I want to implement, I'll re-upload it and post the new code. I've already done that once after a friend of mine ran through it.

I enjoyed the aesthetics and the concept. I also liked the way defeating one boss unlocked a new powerup you could use for the next boss.

But I wasn't a big fan of the boss fights themselves. I tried each one; a couple of them more than once. They all sort of felt a little spammy in terms of randomness and things to avoid. That's not automatically a bad thing, but it's not the type of challenge I enjoy. I only managed to actually beat a boss once or twice, though I didn't spend a long time trying to grind it out. Part of that also comes from me not knowing New SMB as well; not being as good at those move sets.

It would have been nice to be able to have a checkpoint in there, or even a pink coin challenge that saves after each boss. But probably not possible to combine that with the core concept of having to defeat some but not all bosses.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #297 on: May 09, 2020, 10:33:57 pm »
0

I enjoyed the aesthetics and the concept. I also liked the way defeating one boss unlocked a new powerup you could use for the next boss.

But I wasn't a big fan of the boss fights themselves. I tried each one; a couple of them more than once. They all sort of felt a little spammy in terms of randomness and things to avoid. That's not automatically a bad thing, but it's not the type of challenge I enjoy. I only managed to actually beat a boss once or twice, though I didn't spend a long time trying to grind it out. Part of that also comes from me not knowing New SMB as well; not being as good at those move sets.

It would have been nice to be able to have a checkpoint in there, or even a pink coin challenge that saves after each boss. But probably not possible to combine that with the core concept of having to defeat some but not all bosses.

To be fair, the idea of beating some but not all was more born of convenience, since I didn't know how to set up a coin challenge with reusable checkpoints, especially with 7 challenges. Though I do think it's nice you don't have to beat all 7, and maybe I should reduce it from 4 to 3. The "concept" is actually that this is an optional challenge level near the end of a Super World that has more challenging versions of the boss fights in the rest of the game. I doubt I'll ever actually create enough levels to make that game, though.

Though I appreciate the honest feedback, I do bristle at the suggestion that the boss fights are "spammy". My understanding of spam is that you're filling the screen with lots of enemies haphazardly. I think these fights do need something to keep you occupied because otherwise beating Koopalings is trivial. Bop them as soon as they come out of their shell.

But also it just makes me a bit sad that the f.DS community is almost exclusively interested in making and playing Kaizo levels. Kaizo levels suck! Input this combination of buttons exactly if you want to win the level; we'll give you on-screen hints to tell you exactly what to do. There's no creativity in playing a Kaizo level, no exploration, no discovery. You either press the buttons in the exact right way and win, or you don't and lose.

This is not to say that my latest level is any good. I'm coming around to the fact that it's way too hard, even for an optional challenge level. But since we were on the subject of enjoying different kinds of levels, I thought I'd complain some. Also you make a good point about needing to be good at SMBU mechanics. I do a lot of mid-air spins and wall-jumps when I play this level (and all SMBU levels). It would be even harder without those.
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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #298 on: June 28, 2020, 04:08:26 pm »
+2

I've been working on a super-world entirely of puzzle levels; so far I've made about 10 levels (not uploaded yet) and have loads more partial levels. I don't know if I'll ever actually finish everything I have planned, but here is one level I just uploaded: JS1-KNH-C8G. It's a seanhip-style one-screen puzzle.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mario Maker
« Reply #299 on: June 28, 2020, 08:25:53 pm »
+1

I've been working on a super-world entirely of puzzle levels; so far I've made about 10 levels (not uploaded yet) and have loads more partial levels. I don't know if I'll ever actually finish everything I have planned, but here is one level I just uploaded: JS1-KNH-C8G. It's a seanhip-style one-screen puzzle.

Now I just have to drag my wife away from her new Animal Crossing game so I can play the Switch. :D
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