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Infthitbox

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2016, 03:49:04 pm »
+1

How many sets of each kingdom card do you have? If you have 3, then you can do something like:

ADG - 1
BEH - 1
CFI - 2

AFH - 3
BDI - 3
CEG - 4

AEI - 5
BFG - 5
CDH - 6

ABC - 7
DEF - 7
GHI - 8

And of course with 4 of each kingdom card, you only need 4 kingdoms. Everyone plays the same kingdom at the same time, across 4 different games.

Edit: Hmm, out-thought myself here. If you have 3 copies of each card, you can have the same kingdom for each game in a round.

EDIT2: So the top structure still ok for having 2 of each kingdom card if the kingdoms being used that round are disjoint.

I guess you want to be able to have the semi-finals kingdoms arranged ahead of time? I think at that point its unnecessarily sacrificing tournament experience to make it a little quicker/easier to manage the event during the event. Of course, you could make it a pre-requisite of the tournament to agree to helping set up the semifinals if you get eliminated before then.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 03:58:52 pm by Infthitbox »
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AdamH

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2016, 04:47:18 pm »
0

It took me a while to figure out what you're suggesting, but now that I get it, I actually hadn't considered the idea of multiple copies of the same kingdom. I'll have to think about this, whether it's easier to have two copies of the same kingdom than two different kingdoms.

I have three copies of all expansions except for Dark Ages, Guilds, and Adventures. I only have two of those. Hmm...
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Elestan

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2016, 05:06:17 pm »
+4

Another suggestion would be to not make the kingdoms ahead of time (or at least the 12 unique SF kingdoms).  Get out the randomizers and deal out 10 cards, maybe an event or two.  Have yourself and another tourney helper veto maybe one or two cards on an initial glance or cherry pick a specific type of card into the mix.

I guess you want to be able to have the semi-finals kingdoms arranged ahead of time? I think at that point its unnecessarily sacrificing tournament experience to make it a little quicker/easier to manage the event during the event. Of course, you could make it a pre-requisite of the tournament to agree to helping set up the semifinals if you get eliminated before then.

I thought about this for my tournament, and quickly concluded that it would not work well.  Remember, each table does not have its own cards and randomizers; they're all sharing a few sets (just 1-2, in my case), so you also need to ensure that you do not over-allocate any component.  Spoils, Ruins, VP tokens, Shelters - all of these constrain your ability to create Kingdoms freely.  And beyond that, random picks tend to generate a lot of slow slogs, which are bad in an IRL tournament, because of time limits on the venue.

Another problem is setup time:  Dealing the randomizers, thinking even briefly about the cards, and getting the various cards and tokens out of storage probably takes at least three minutes - and that's probably rushed.   Multiply by ten tables, and everyone is waiting for half an hour between each round.  Minimizing stand-around time is really my top priority, and there's already more of it than I'd like.  Doing as much as I can ahead of time at least helps.

To create the 14 Kingdoms I use for my tournament, I do an initial design pass for them all, and then identify any overused components and re-design the Kingdoms to accommodate.  I pre-pack every Kingdom separately, ready to be unloaded onto the card trays and moved out to the table...and it still takes me and an assistant about an hour to get everything set up.  Trying to do it on the fly seems likely to end messily.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 05:11:25 pm by Elestan »
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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2016, 10:17:49 pm »
0

Remove 1 prelim game and add it to the semifinals.  Then take a few more players into the semifinal round.  I think this would work best if you could take half of the players and advance them.  So 24 players with 12 making the SFs.

Is the issue here not then that half your entrants only get to play 3 games? That's not much.

You should try driving across state to a double elimination fighting game tournament.  It's the thrillz man!

you're talking to a guy who's driven from ohio to green bay & atlanta for those in the past.  i actually did well in those, at least...a couple evos were a different story though.

Infthitbox

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2016, 08:51:07 am »
0

Another suggestion would be to not make the kingdoms ahead of time (or at least the 12 unique SF kingdoms).  Get out the randomizers and deal out 10 cards, maybe an event or two.  Have yourself and another tourney helper veto maybe one or two cards on an initial glance or cherry pick a specific type of card into the mix.

I guess you want to be able to have the semi-finals kingdoms arranged ahead of time? I think at that point its unnecessarily sacrificing tournament experience to make it a little quicker/easier to manage the event during the event. Of course, you could make it a pre-requisite of the tournament to agree to helping set up the semifinals if you get eliminated before then.

Another problem is setup time:  Dealing the randomizers, thinking even briefly about the cards, and getting the various cards and tokens out of storage probably takes at least three minutes - and that's probably rushed.   Multiply by ten tables, and everyone is waiting for half an hour between each round.  Minimizing stand-around time is really my top priority, and there's already more of it than I'd like.  Doing as much as I can ahead of time at least helps.

To create the 14 Kingdoms I use for my tournament, I do an initial design pass for them all, and then identify any overused components and re-design the Kingdoms to accommodate.  I pre-pack every Kingdom separately, ready to be unloaded onto the card trays and moved out to the table...and it still takes me and an assistant about an hour to get everything set up.  Trying to do it on the fly seems likely to end messily.

Having some intermission time between the first round and the semifinals (although if its the last set of games to be played, as has been suggested, semifinals becomes a misnomer) isn't the worst thing in the world. Perhaps it is just from my experience with larger Magic tournaments, but I found myself wishing there was even just a couple more minutes between rounds at Adam's tournament. I guess it doesn't help that I think my game was the last to finish in at least 5 of the 7 rounds I played.

I understand wanting to have the trays with the kingdoms all set up ahead of time. But for the second round, if you give a 15 minute break or something along those lines, players can relax/pump themselves up, and you can finish allocating cards/components to finish up the second round kingdoms, which could possibly be partially set up ahead of time.

I don't mean to be dismissive of tournament organizer concerns, I haven't done it (yet). Its just that I feel like there are some improvements that could go a long way for tournament player experience and not add too much more cost to organizers.
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Elestan

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2016, 09:41:53 am »
+3

Having some intermission time between the first round and the semifinals (although if its the last set of games to be played, as has been suggested, semifinals becomes a misnomer) isn't the worst thing in the world. Perhaps it is just from my experience with larger Magic tournaments, but I found myself wishing there was even just a couple more minutes between rounds at Adam's tournament. I guess it doesn't help that I think my game was the last to finish in at least 5 of the 7 rounds I played.

I understand wanting to have the trays with the kingdoms all set up ahead of time. But for the second round, if you give a 15 minute break or something along those lines, players can relax/pump themselves up, and you can finish allocating cards/components to finish up the second round kingdoms, which could possibly be partially set up ahead of time.
In my last tournament, we already didn't conclude until after midnight (We had to do two tiebreaker rounds in addition to the eight planned ones), and people were burning out.  I don't think going until 2am would be popular.
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AdamH

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2016, 09:43:07 am »
0

I don't mean to be dismissive of tournament organizer concerns, I haven't done it (yet). Its just that I feel like there are some improvements that could go a long way for tournament player experience and not add too much more cost to organizers.

I'm glad you're saying what you want as a player -- when I play in Elestan's tournaments the only thing I care about at all is winning the darn thing; my mind is focused so hard on the gameplay that I don't really remember much else about the experience. I've never competed in other IRL tournaments before either, so having this perspective offers ways for me to improve the way things go (and theoretically more people will show up to tournaments if they are happier with them).

Your ideas are things I've never thought of, so of course they're only helpful. Maybe not all of them will work but I don't see you getting butthurt at that possibility. If anything, just make sure I'm not being too dismissive of your ideas :)

Having some intermission time between the first round and the semifinals (although if its the last set of games to be played, as has been suggested, semifinals becomes a misnomer) isn't the worst thing in the world. Perhaps it is just from my experience with larger Magic tournaments, but I found myself wishing there was even just a couple more minutes between rounds at Adam's tournament. I guess it doesn't help that I think my game was the last to finish in at least 5 of the 7 rounds I played.

We actually did have an intermission at this point, it went from 5 to 6PM, where the first half of that time was spent playing a tiebreaker match. Throughout the tournament I knew we were going to cut it close to a 9PM finish with the pace of the games so I was trying to hurry it along a little bit.

The intent of the timed rounds is to make sure we have enough time to have winners selected before they close the registers at 9PM, that way people can spend their prize money that day. I sort of assume about 10 minutes in between each round, but my current time budget could maybe use some work. It would be good to have time for 8 games, and intermission, and some margin for tiebreaker games if we need them.

I understand wanting to have the trays with the kingdoms all set up ahead of time. But for the second round, if you give a 15 minute break or something along those lines, players can relax/pump themselves up, and you can finish allocating cards/components to finish up the second round kingdoms, which could possibly be partially set up ahead of time.

There may be a way to use only my own Dominion set for the semi/finals games, and only the other sets that I borrow for the other games. Now that I'm removing Mayday sleeves from my life this might be easier, but it could still be a challenge -- I need to give this some more thought and maybe play around with my script a bit to see if I feel like the quality of kingdoms would suffer from some of my ideas. Let me tell you some of the things I do to prepare and some of the things I want to minimize:

- I want the kingdoms to feel as close to full-random as possible, but with some filtering to take out uninteresting or high-luck kingdoms, and I'm especially cautious in 3P junking games because things can just get out of hand.
- I don't want to "tweak" kingdoms to "remove duds" or "make one strategy stronger/competitive" -- I don't feel like I'm good at that, and part of Dominion skill that I want to test is knowing which cards can be ignored safely (or knowing when weak cards can shine); or seeing two viable strategies and determining which one is stronger/what to deny.
- I borrow entire Dominion sets from two other people for the tournaments. I like to make it so I can return their sets to them on the day of the tournament. This doesn't affect kingdom design all that much, but it does imply that...
- I'm not going to re-sleeve entire sets of base cards (basic treasures, basic victory cards, purples) day-of. I'd like to minimize re-sleeving of kingdom cards if possible. I'm hoping this distinction will just mean the difference between sleeved and unsleeved instead of using two different types of sleeves.
- I don't want to re-use the same copy of a card in the prelims and in the semi/finals. I'm not totally opposed to doing this, but I want this to be a last resort (I've tried it before and I think I have enough sets that I shouldn't have to anymore). What are the issues with this?
-- I use extra unplayed kingdoms from the prelims as my tiebreaker sets, so there's a risk of cannibalizing one of those sets and then needing it later for a tiebreaker.
-- Tracking cards becomes more difficult when I have the same card in two different places at once.
-- I like to have all of my stuff in a place where I can keep an eye on it, just to make sure that nobody is peeking at something they aren't supposed to see, and if I go to the bathroom, they'll at least be peeking in front of everybody. Switching out cards is something I'd really like to do away from prying eyes (which is really difficult to do, actually, I have a crowd around me pretty much every minute of these days unless I'm floating around watching games being played -- talking to the people playing is important to me and I like being the center of attention :P ). The solution to this may be as simple as just asking to store my still-covered trays behind the counter of the store. Actually, I bet they would totally let me do that. OK maybe this one isn't an issue after all, I'll ask the store owner about this.
-- None of these are showstoppers, but they are additional things to deal with day-of and I'd really prefer not to deal with them if it's possible.

So the idea I'm kicking around in my head is like this: I have access to seven sets of base cards, five of them must be unsleeved, the other two can be either. Also, I can call on some people who are attending to bring in their sets of base cards just in case I need them -- I haven't yet but I like to be prepared. I also have my own sleeved cards, which has three sets of base cards. If I used sleeved kingdom cards and my three sleeved base cards for the semi/finals, then unsleeved cards for the prelims (with additional backup kingdoms out of my sleeved stuff in case we need it for the prelims) I could make life a lot simpler. My only worry is that the quality of kingdoms might suffer by dividing my kingdom cards in such a way, but maybe that's not an issue.

I need to think about this some more, but I'm optimistic about this. It abandons the multiple-copies-of-the-same-kingdom-in-the-semis idea, but after thinking about for a bit, coming up with two different good kingdoms is roughly the same amount of work as coming up with two copies of the same good kingdom.
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AdamH

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2016, 09:46:18 am »
0

In my last tournament, we already didn't conclude until after midnight (We had to do two tiebreaker rounds in addition to the eight planned ones), and people were burning out.  I don't think going until 2am would be popular.

My time limits are tighter than yours, for sure. I give 45 minutes total for a game, including thinking time. I've also never had to actually call a game on time and I know you've had to do that before. A lot of the local people are pretty quick players and I think that helps a lot.
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AdamH

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2016, 11:58:14 am »
0

Oh yeah, and I've updated the scripts with all of the bug-fixing and feature-adding I've done, plus I tested them all on Python 2 and Python 3 and everything should work nicely.

tourney2 is for 2-player tournaments, tourney3 is for 3-player tournaments. If you're going to use them, I like making a "starter" csv file to enter in all of your peoples' names and adjust the number of tables you want to start with, it's easier than entering them all in manually and when two people arrive together you can just put them on non-adjacent lines so they don't play each other in the first game. Making this file is relatively easy, just enter in some fake names, play one round with random results, and it will spit out a nice little template for you :)

So all you have to do is enter the names at the start, then enter in game results and it will tell you the "ideal" matchups each round. If the match isn't "ideal" then it will tell you why (sometimes people will play the same opponent more than once because they have similar scores, etc.) and let you add tables or just deal with it.

It doesn't understand the concept of "4P OK" kingdoms -- meaning that if I have a 3P tournament but need one or two 4P boards, it will assume any of the boards is OK to make into a 4P game. It would take some significant changes to the algorithm to account for this. Similar for 2P to 3P boards.

kingdoms helps generate random kingdoms with limited components, kingdomcards.txt supports kingdoms, you can change it to specify how many of each expansion/card/component you have, or you can comment out cards to ban them from your tournament (MWAHAHHHAHAHAAHH!!!) It works for both 2P and 3P tournaments.
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Elestan

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2016, 12:32:12 pm »
0

It doesn't understand the concept of "4P OK" kingdoms -- meaning that if I have a 3P tournament but need one or two 4P boards, it will assume any of the boards is OK to make into a 4P game.

The 4P-OK flag is important in my tournament mainly because I try to design kingdoms with a certain balance between the strategies, so I need to exclude cards that change strength/impact significantly based on the number of players (e.g. Junkers, Cutpurse, Jester, Thief...), and kingdoms where a certain card is going to be contested, and might become too scarce with 4P.
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AdamH

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2016, 12:52:04 pm »
0

The 4P-OK flag is important in my tournament mainly because I try to design kingdoms with a certain balance between the strategies, so I need to exclude cards that change strength/impact significantly based on the number of players (e.g. Junkers, Cutpurse, Jester, Thief...), and kingdoms where a certain card is going to be contested, and might become too scarce with 4P.

Yeah, I didn't know how useful this particular thing would be to you anyways -- I would just ban cards like that or no-vote kingdoms where that would be an issue. I haven't had that much trouble coming up with enough "good" kingdoms by doing this. I also happen to know you like to be a little more adventurous in your kingdom design by trying to make cards work that should never be seen in competitive Dominion play ever AHEMAHEMblackmarketAHEM :P

But maybe it can serve as a starting point -- generate some kingdoms until you find one that gives you some ideas, say yes, stop the script, then go into the kingdoms.txt and edit in your changes, then start up the script and import that file (it's pretty easy to do, just press 1) and repeat the process.
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shark_bait

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2016, 04:57:46 pm »
+2


Yeah, I didn't know how useful this particular thing would be to you anyways -- I would just ban cards like that or no-vote kingdoms where that would be an issue. I haven't had that much trouble coming up with enough "good" kingdoms by doing this. I also happen to know you like to be a little more adventurous in your kingdom design by trying to make cards work that should never be seen in competitive Dominion play ever AHEMAHEMblackmarketAHEM :P

But maybe it can serve as a starting point -- generate some kingdoms until you find one that gives you some ideas, say yes, stop the script, then go into the kingdoms.txt and edit in your changes, then start up the script and import that file (it's pretty easy to do, just press 1) and repeat the process.

Don't forget that every card in the BM deck needs to also be specifically chosen to ensure that the kingdom plays exactly as intended.  ;)
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Elestan

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2016, 08:19:08 pm »
+4

Don't forget that every card in the BM deck needs to also be specifically chosen to ensure that the kingdom plays exactly as intended.  ;)

*nod*  Full support for Black Market is, of course, a critical feature.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2016, 08:34:41 am »
+1


Players are A through I, with A being the top seed and I being the bottom seed. I'm not positive this is the best seeding but most of the seedings seem pretty much the same to me TBH. Of note is the fact that three people get to play 6 different opponents and I chose to make those three the bottom seeded people.
 
Round 1:
Table 1 AFG
Table 2 BEH
Table 3 CDI
 
Round 2:
Table 1 CDH
Table 2 AFI
Table 3 BEG
 
Round 3:
Table 4 ADH
Table 5 BFI
Table 6 CEG
 
Round 4:
Table 4 CEI
Table 5 ADG
Table 6 BFH


I'm not sure where you landed with your last post, but I want to go back for a second and note that this format severely punishes player F over players G, H, and I. Imagining a scenario where player A is significantly better than the rest of the field, playing A twice in the semifinals is a pretty big handicap, and would incentivize tanking into one of the bottom three seeds. The problem also exists in this structure for E and D if B and C are also significantly better.

I've been toying with a tournament simulator with win probability based on iso ratings to try to illustrate this point with examples, but it is taking a lot of time to do and I wanted to get this in while the thread wasn't totally stale.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2016, 02:35:14 pm »
+2

Ok, now I have some numbers to illustrate my point. Imagine a hypothetical semifinal field, listed in seeding order:

name, mu, sigma
SheCantSayNo,75.96,10.91
Adam Horton,73.04,14.54
Titandrake,53.46,11.67
Infthitbox,47.54,10.04
Infthitbox,47.54,10.04
Infthitbox,47.54,10.04
Infthitbox,47.54,10.04
Infthitbox,47.54,10.04
Infthitbox,47.54,10.04

I ran them through a simulation where win probability was based on iso ratings. I simulated your structure in reply 17 and the round-robin structure (there are many variations of rr structures) I listed in reply 25. The scores listed are the total score after 1000 iterations: dividing by 1000 gives the average semifinal result.

------------------------
AdamH Reply 17
------------------------
SheCantSayNo: 16605
Adam Horton: 15991
Titandrake: 12948
Infthitbox: 10632
Infthitbox: 10735
Infthitbox: 9727
Infthitbox: 10293
Infthitbox: 10286
Infthitbox: 10675


Notice how poorly the six-seeded Infthitbox does compared to the rest of them: the 6-seed in this format has to play both the 1 and 2 seeds twice. No other player is required to do this.


------------------------
Infthitbox Reply 25
------------------------
SheCantSayNo: 15876
Adam Horton: 15426
Titandrake: 11832
Infthitbox: 10860
Infthitbox: 10843
Infthitbox: 10784
Infthitbox: 10856
Infthitbox: 10734
Infthitbox: 10681


This is more of what you would expect to see; all the Infthitboxes do about the same.


Adam, I can't remember exactly what the format for the actual semifinal was, but whoever the person was that had to follow the 1-seed for all 3 games would see this effect. If you can hit me that format, I'd be interested in running it for this same hypothetical field.
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AdamH

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2016, 03:42:08 pm »
+1

Let me attempt to convert the semifinal round into this format:

Round 1:
Table 1 - AFI
Table 2 - BEH
Table 3 - CDG

Round 2:
Table 1 - CEG
Table 2 - ADI
Table 3 - BFH

Round 3:
Table 1 - BDH
Table 2 - CFG
Table 3 - AEI


Based on what you showed me, it makes perfect sense for me to switch F and I in that format I suggested. I also remain convinced that a perfect round robin like you suggested would be better (you really don't need seeds in that format, actually, unless you wanted to force the top three seeds to play each other in the last round or something goofy) if you had unlimited kingdoms :P
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Infthitbox

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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2016, 06:58:42 pm »
0

Let me attempt to convert the semifinal round into this format:

-----------------------
AdamH January Tournament
-----------------------
SheCantSayNo: 12390
Adam Horton: 12127
Titandrake: 9740
Infthitbox: 7712
Infthitbox: 7878
Infthitbox: 7826
Infthitbox: 8565
Infthitbox: 7489
Infthitbox: 7273

It seems that the 7-seed in this format has a pretty big edge, they do get to follow around the 3-seed rather than the 1- or 2-seed (each of whom they don't play, obviously). Come to think of it, I think I was the 7-seed in the semifinal so I'm not sure why I'm complaining. Admittedly, the distribution of players at the actual tournament was not doctored to accentuate the peculiarities of the structure.


Quote
Based on what you showed me, it makes perfect sense for me to switch F and I in that format I suggested. I also remain convinced that a perfect round robin like you suggested would be better (you really don't need seeds in that format, actually, unless you wanted to force the top three seeds to play each other in the last round or something goofy) if you had unlimited kingdoms :P

Having the top three players be the ones who play everyone seems to me to be the best way to handle that format if you were going to run it.

There are many ways to structure the round robin, and doing so in such a way that makes the three top seeds play a game together is actually pretty brutal.
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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2016, 07:16:49 pm »
0

Yeah the January tournament's semifinals don't allow much wiggle room to get perfect seeding.

It seems like there aren't that many different ways to seed things, really. There are only 9! of them, which isn't that computationally intense. You could just make some heuristic of how good the numbers are once you have them, try them all, and print out the seeding that gives you the best result -- I guess this also depends on the rankings of the players.

I'd be happy to get close to it, TBH. If I get some spare cycles before my next 3P tournament in five months I may do it myself...
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Re: Swiss tournament pairing script
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2016, 09:30:14 am »
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https://www.facebook.com/AdamForSurvivor

This guy got cast on the next season, maybe there is something like this you could do as well?

Edit: He has a cool first name.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:31:17 am by Eevee »
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