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Author Topic: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.  (Read 3803 times)

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werothegreat

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Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« on: September 08, 2015, 09:33:02 am »
+1

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2015, 09:49:58 am »
+1

Isn't that just the expected outcome?
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popsofctown

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2015, 11:20:49 am »
0

It is.
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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2015, 12:42:27 pm »
0

I take that video as evidence that the Hearthstone client was coded rather well. 

I played almost the whole thing the other day.  It's quite soothing.
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Kirian

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2015, 01:13:02 pm »
+1

Saw this at Pocket Tactics.  Still not as ridiculous as the 48-hour Arcane Missiles.

"Breaking" games in this fashion is brilliant.  Anyone remember the Turing machine Magic deck?
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popsofctown

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2015, 01:22:27 pm »
+1

I was more impressed by the video on reddit showing that you can use Mind Control to pull a card out of your opponent's hand.
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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2015, 01:51:13 pm »
+1

"Breaking" games in this fashion is brilliant.  Anyone remember the Turing machine Magic deck?

Link for those to lazy to google it: http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/
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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2015, 02:07:56 pm »
+3

Reminds me of the good times when LSV broke MTGO:

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werothegreat

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2015, 12:03:11 am »
0

So what exactly is going on there?  If I'm understanding it correctly, he exiles the current OR with a new OR, then plays another OR to exile that one, which brings back the first one?
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Awaclus

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2015, 12:32:20 am »
0

So what exactly is going on there?  If I'm understanding it correctly, he exiles the current OR with a new OR, then plays another OR to exile that one, which brings back the first one?

That's probably not what he intended to do, but yes, that's what ended up happening.
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Titandrake

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2015, 01:03:03 am »
+2

So what exactly is going on there?  If I'm understanding it correctly, he exiles the current OR with a new OR, then plays another OR to exile that one, which brings back the first one?

That's probably not what he intended to do, but yes, that's what ended up happening.

If you listen to the video, that's exactly what he intended to do, because he was curious to see how MTGO would handle it.

Explanation for people less familiar with MtG: Oblivion Ring (usually abbreviated O-ring) is a card that says "When this comes into play, exile another nonland permanent. When this leaves play, return the exiled card to play." (In MtG, everything in play is called a permanent.) Right now, there is an O-Ring in play exiling another O-Ring, with no other nonlands. LSV plays a 3rd O-Ring, which causes the O-Ring lock. There's only one legal target for the 3rd O-Ring, so it immediately resolves and exiles the O-Ring in play. Since that O-Ring left play, it triggers its "leaves play" trigger, bringing an exiled O-Ring back into play. That one triggers its "comes into play" trigger, and the only valid target is the other O-Ring in play...

In real life this ends the game in a draw, in MTGO it does something sillier.
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popsofctown

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2015, 02:24:28 am »
0

LSV had a winning board position so it must have been a pretty casual game for his curiousity to win out.
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Titandrake

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2015, 02:46:41 am »
0

LSV had a winning board position so it must have been a pretty casual game for his curiousity to win out.

Actually I don't think that board state is winning for LSV. The way the lock gets set up is

- Opponent's O-Ring is on the stack
- LSV tries to counter it, gets pulled into a counter war
- LSV runs out of counters (he doesn't have mana to Snapcaster-Dissipate.)
- ...but he can use Doom Blade to kill his own creature. He does for curiosity, O-Ring finally resolves, triggers the O-Ring lock.

If he doesn't do this, O-Ring resolves, removes his creature, LSV ends his turn. They're now tied on cards in hand and his opponent gets first untap and can play without worrying about counterspells, so it's definitely not clear cut.
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Awaclus

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2015, 02:49:36 am »
0

If you listen to the video, that's exactly what he intended to do, because he was curious to see how MTGO would handle it.

That's what LSV intended to do, but I don't think his opponent did.
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popsofctown

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2015, 03:00:08 am »
0

If you listen to the video, that's exactly what he intended to do, because he was curious to see how MTGO would handle it.

That's what LSV intended to do, but I don't think his opponent did.
It wasn't up to LSV's opponent, it was up to LSV.  Casting an O-ring to remove a creature from the board is a rather pedestrian play.  The situation only becomes exceptional when LSV kills his own creature in response.  As soon as LSV kills his own creature in response, there's nothing the player owning the O-rings can do, O-ring's effect is not optional. 

Saying "it's not what the O-ring player meant to do" here is like watching someone get pinned by the Possession + Forge pin and whispering in the controlled player's ear each time all his cards get stuck in set-aside instead of his deck, "That's not what you meant to do, huh".  All the guy did was buy a Forge.
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Awaclus

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2015, 03:06:14 am »
0

If you listen to the video, that's exactly what he intended to do, because he was curious to see how MTGO would handle it.

That's what LSV intended to do, but I don't think his opponent did.
It wasn't up to LSV's opponent, it was up to LSV.  Casting an O-ring to remove a creature from the board is a rather pedestrian play.  The situation only becomes exceptional when LSV kills his own creature in response.  As soon as LSV kills his own creature in response, there's nothing the player owning the O-rings can do, O-ring's effect is not optional. 

Saying "it's not what the O-ring player meant to do" here is like watching someone get pinned by the Possession + Forge pin and whispering in the controlled player's ear each time all his cards get stuck in set-aside instead of his deck, "That's not what you meant to do, huh".  All the guy did was buy a Forge.

Indeed.
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Kirian

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2015, 03:45:06 pm »
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I had no idea that you could force a draw in MTG.  Did they have to add a rule specifically for infinite loops?  Are there other infinite loops?

Also, this sounds like a troll deck.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2015, 04:24:34 pm »
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I had no idea that you could force a draw in MTG.  Did they have to add a rule specifically for infinite loops?  Are there other infinite loops?

Also, this sounds like a troll deck.

It's possible to force a draw in MTG, and has been for a while, by forcing an unending loop of triggered abilities. As long as none of the abilities are optional, and no player chooses to end it in another way, the game is a draw. In this example, if there was another legal target for Oblivion Ring, one of the players would have eventually had to break the loop by targeting that target instead. However, if one of the players had a way to destroy an enchantment in their hand, they wouldn't be obligated to play it to break the loop.

From the Comprehensive Rules:

Quote
104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.

Quote
716.5. No player can be forced to perform an action that would end a loop other than actions called for by objects involved in the loop.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 04:26:08 pm by Drab Emordnilap »
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popsofctown

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2015, 04:49:20 pm »
0

I had no idea that you could force a draw in MTG.  Did they have to add a rule specifically for infinite loops?  Are there other infinite loops?

Also, this sounds like a troll deck.

You can also cause a draw by using a damage effect that kills both players at the same time (as with Hellfire in Hearthstone if you play that).


They did have to add a rule specifically to clarify infinite loops.  Basically these situations are "everybody starves" situations, which for Donald is fine but for a Magic tournament where a match slip needs to be turned in and say "win, lose, or draw" on it, they need to clarify (well, actually I guess the time-out rules would cover it eventually but that's not desirable).

The most famous other infinite draw loop I can think of Animate Dead: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159249 plus Worldgorger Dragon http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383154.  There used to be a Legacy combo deck based on those two cards.  If you play Animate Dead targeting a Worldgorger Dragon in your graveyard, you resurrect the Worldgorger Dragon, which banishes the animate dead, which kills the Worldgorger Dragon, which unbanishes Animate dead, which resurrects the Worldgorger Dragon, and then it loops.  Like 90% of the time you could kill your opponent using the other permanents that keep jumping in and out of existence, because they untap and refresh each time they come back so if they can do any thing to kill your opponent, they will have infinite opportunities to do so. (even a modest card like http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270806, I don't know which card the deck actually used.)

However, if you don't have a way to use the loop to kill your opponent, and there are no other creatures that Animate Dead can resurrect after you resurrect the Dragon a few times, the loop goes infinite and draws the game whether the Worldgorger Dragon user likes it or not.

Worldgorger dragon has since been banned from Legacy even though the rather powerful Animate Dead is still allowed.  The ability to easily get kills plus the backup plan of drawing the game if you're in a tough spot is pretty strong.

Neither card is restricted in Vintage so you can still do that combo there.  It might actually be decent, I don't know if it sees play.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2015, 04:56:00 pm »
+2

Worldgorger dragon has since been banned from Legacy even though the rather powerful Animate Dead is still allowed.  The ability to easily get kills plus the backup plan of drawing the game if you're in a tough spot is pretty strong.

Neither card is restricted in Vintage so you can still do that combo there.  It might actually be decent, I don't know if it sees play.

If I remember correctly, the Worldgorger Dragon combo won by generating infinite mana by tapping its lands every time they went in and out from the loop, and using that mana to cast Stroke of Genius (and any tutors/card draw necessary to find Stroke of Genius along the way), to make the opponent draw an arbitrary number of cards.

Also, Worldgorger Dragon was unbanned from Legacy earlier this year, for what it's worth.
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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2015, 12:06:09 pm »
+2

I'm getting tired of checking this thread for Hearthstone content and finding none.
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qmech

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2015, 12:58:23 pm »
0

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2015, 02:55:54 am »
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I was worried the stacking bug was back, for a while.
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popsofctown

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Re: Someone figured out how to break Hearthstone.
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2015, 11:21:21 am »
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I still have stacking issues with Patron Warrior. 
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