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Author Topic: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel  (Read 3644 times)

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yuma

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Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« on: January 09, 2012, 09:34:16 pm »
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I just played a game that I forgot to copy the log in which Fool's Gold appeared to be the optimal strategy because of the presence of a trashers with both remodel and remake present. In the game I chose remake out of a gut instinct but later wished I had opted for Remodel. I won't tell the final outcome of the game to be consistent with the rules of this board.

Which trasher would be better--I realize other cards may make one more advantageous than the other, but what cards would those be?  I have the Remodel/Remake argument with myself pretty consistently and can normally find a quick decision given the situation. But in this situation I am not too sure, even the council room logs are split with Remodel being the ninth best card to pair with Fool's Gold--the best $4 cost card in fact--while Remake is the twelfth best.

Any thoughts?
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Elyv

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2012, 09:52:48 pm »
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So normally I hate remodel, but being able to remodel estates or coppers into FGs instead of remaking them into nothing or silvers seems better for remodel.

Were there any 3 or 4 costing cards(other than remodel/remake) worth noting?
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jonts26

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2012, 09:54:01 pm »
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I'd definitely take remodel over remake here. Remodel will let you get double fool's gold turns which is crucial in a mirror match. Remake certainly helps you thin your deck faster but it's less important here.
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ftl

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2012, 09:57:21 pm »
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A simple simulation comparing FG-remake to FG-remodel seems to confirm that FG-remodel wins more often, winning the FG split.
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DG

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2012, 10:03:54 pm »
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This recent match from the tournament shows some good fool's gold and remodel play. The fool's gold supply is empty by about turn 5. The players exchanged quite a few fool's gold for gold near the game end as this offered the chance to remodel gold to provinces at the death (with the right draws).  http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/08/game-20120108-190943-0a55a884.html
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yuma

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 09:14:45 am »
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Were there any 3 or 4 costing cards(other than remodel/remake) worth noting?

There was both bridge and workshop. Both seemed like possible strategies for getting to Fool's Golds, but obviously neither were able to eliminate junk at the same time. My opponent went for the Bridge strat. I won the FG battle 7-3 with the remake. I imagine it could have been higher had I used Remodel. Shanty Town was also present which in the end benefited me because I was able to Remake my Estates into them instead of into Silvers. I didn't want Silvers because they would have collided with my FGs that I was trying to triple up on, as well as Shanty Town helping in drawing two cards in a hand that lacked action cards...

But in retrospect it appears Remodel was the best choice, Remake was just good enough.
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Anon79

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 10:27:25 am »
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My opponent went for the Bridge strat. I won the FG battle 7-3 with the remake.
Eh what? Any turn he draws the Bridge gets him 2 FG's... so if he opens Bridge/FG, I really don't see him ending up only at 3 FG's when you opened Remake.
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Epoch

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 12:17:49 pm »
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So, it occurs to me that in a pure two-person FG rush, the FG pile runs out VERY quickly, right?  It's impossible to draw less than $2 if all you buy is FGs, so you can put a hard limit of turn 5 to finishing the FG pile if that's high enough priority -- each player could just buy FG every turn from turn 1 to turn 5, and that kills the pile.

Thus, if you're talking about something to "win the FG rush," you need to be talking about buying something that gets you two FGs before turn 5 (one to replace the lost FG buying opportunity where you bought your "enabling" card, and one more to actually get back up above parity).

I don't think that there exists a card in the game which, with one play, gets you two FGs.  So you need to be talking about a card that you play twice before turn 5.  Obviously, this needs to be bought on turn 1/2, then played once in turn 3/4, and then again on turn 5.

If you're the second player, this is hopeless -- there's only one FG in the pile come your turn 5.  Only the first player can hope to do this.  And he needs a substantial amount of luck.

Probably more realistically, you could hope to get a card that lets you retain 5 FG parity (particularly if you're player 1), and will be useful to you later in the game.  So, Workshop strikes me as a bad FG "enabler" -- you're unlikely to get more than 1 FG with it, and it probably won't be particularly useful in the late game.  Remodel, on the other hand, probably lets you retain parity and you can then turn FGs->Gold and Gold->Province, so that's cool.  Bridge or Salvager also seem promising.  Remake seems impossibly bad -- won't even let you retain parity.

All of this changes if your opponent is not monomanically focused on buying FGs.  So that implies that if you see your opponent open Remake or Workshop, you can punish him by buying FG every turn.

This is also a case where first person advantage is quite strong.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 12:23:12 pm »
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Not sure whether Bridge or Remodel is more favourable here.

Epoch

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 12:29:19 pm »
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Not sure whether Bridge or Remodel is more favourable here.

Well, Remodel has at least the possibility of an only-one-FG turn (Remodel, Copper (or FG), Estate x3), while Bridge is inevitably a two-FG turn.  But, on the other hand, Remodel offers the opportunity to slim down your deck to have more FG collisions.  But Bridge gives you the opportunity to use the overkill money that some FG hands may give you.

Remodel probably looks better if you're player 1, when even if you get a 1 FG turn you will probably still get 5 FGs (so, you buy your enabler and 1 FG during turns 1/2, as does your opponent, you buy two FGs during turns 3/4, your opponent buys 3, your turn 5 you probably buy 1, so does your opponent, your turn 6 there's one left in the supply so you can buy it).  Bridge might be better for player 2 with their inherent disadvantage.  Certainly, if I were player 2 and my opponent opened FG/Bridge, I'd want to get Bridge as well, to minimize the chances of a 6/4 split.

It's an interesting analysis since the opportunity for action is so restricted.  Though, could Nomad Camp be the game-breaker for a FG rush?  It offers a greater possibility of two plays before the FG pile is depleted.
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Voltgloss

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2012, 01:31:21 pm »
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If you're the second player, this is hopeless -- there's only one FG in the pile come your turn 5.  Only the first player can hope to do this.  And he needs a substantial amount of luck.

Actually, I think there is a way that the second player could win the FG split against an opponent who simply buys FG every turn from the get-go.  But it requires perfect shuffle luck and the right board.  Hardly practical, but an interesting puzzle.  So I think I'll post about this on the puzzle board!
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yuma

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2012, 04:42:37 pm »
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My opponent went for the Bridge strat. I won the FG battle 7-3 with the remake.
Eh what? Any turn he draws the Bridge gets him 2 FG's... so if he opens Bridge/FG, I really don't see him ending up only at 3 FG's when you opened Remake.

I should clarify that he bought the Bridge on his third turn, without buying Fool's Gold either of the previous two turns. That obviously led to me having an advantage. Sorry for leaving that info out.
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tlloyd

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2012, 05:12:39 pm »
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Not sure whether Bridge or Remodel is more favourable here.

Well, Remodel has at least the possibility of an only-one-FG turn (Remodel, Copper (or FG), Estate x3), while Bridge is inevitably a two-FG turn.  But, on the other hand, Remodel offers the opportunity to slim down your deck to have more FG collisions.  But Bridge gives you the opportunity to use the overkill money that some FG hands may give you.

Remodel probably looks better if you're player 1, when even if you get a 1 FG turn you will probably still get 5 FGs (so, you buy your enabler and 1 FG during turns 1/2, as does your opponent, you buy two FGs during turns 3/4, your opponent buys 3, your turn 5 you probably buy 1, so does your opponent, your turn 6 there's one left in the supply so you can buy it).  Bridge might be better for player 2 with their inherent disadvantage.  Certainly, if I were player 2 and my opponent opened FG/Bridge, I'd want to get Bridge as well, to minimize the chances of a 6/4 split.

It's an interesting analysis since the opportunity for action is so restricted.  Though, could Nomad Camp be the game-breaker for a FG rush?  It offers a greater possibility of two plays before the FG pile is depleted.

Re Nomad Camp: the first thing I thought when Fool's Gold was revealed was "so THAT'S what Nomad Camp is for!"
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Fool's Gold/Remake or Remodel
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2012, 05:59:18 pm »
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^I had exactly the same impression. An 4/5 opening sounds cute, but is not likely enough to occur. But a 4/2/2 just needs a sufficiently good 2, and one day later we got one.
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