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Author Topic: Games without a defined priority/turn order  (Read 3595 times)

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GendoIkari

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Games without a defined priority/turn order
« on: September 02, 2015, 05:23:39 pm »
+4

These games annoy me. I don't mean real-time or dexterity games like Space Cadets Dice Duel. In those games, it's just everyone playing simultaneously, which is just the type of game it is. I mean games where it's normally a turn-ordered type thing, but there's no actual rule about when a person can do something out of turn.

A lot of beginners seem to think that Magic: The Gathering works this way. They figure that when you cast a creature, your opponent has a second or two to play a counterspell, or that if you move on to your next action fast enough, your opponent has lost the chance to counter. But when you actually learn the real, full rules, you see that there is never a time when it's not clearly defined which ONE player can act at any given moment (exception: any player may resign the game at any time).

Anyway, I recently played Coup, which is a good game in some ways. But it has this issue... when one player declares that they are playing an action, there's no defined rule about who has the chance to challenge the action. All other players can just speak up at any time, and the player whose turn it is just waits a few seconds to see if anyone will challenge. The problem is, it's always disadvantageous to challenge (compared to a different player challenging instead). So all players sit there waiting and hoping that another player will challenge, without any rule about when you have now waited too long. And then if 2 players do both decide to challenge, it's just whoever speaks up first, which might be practically simultaneously. Same with blocking an action.

If I remember right, Munchkin works this way also. When there's a battle, any player can just go and play a card at any time, no rule about whose turn it is. And again you'd rather your opponent play a card before you do.

Anyway, does this type of mechanic annoy anyone else?

(Note that it's different if a game sometimes is this way in practice, like how in Dominion multiple opponents might reveal a Moat at the same time. Or in MTG how players will assume that there was no counterspell after a couple seconds, without specifically stating that they're now passing priority. Or Macao, when people choose which AC they want at the same time. In all these situations, the rules still define an actual order, even if it almost never matters).
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liopoil

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2015, 06:26:57 pm »
0

I agree that's annoying. It would be very easy to make a house rule that you just have to make the choice in clockwise order from the player whose turn it is, and this fixes everything. Dominion has this rule in it, and IMO every game where it can be relevant should have it or a variation of it.
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Donald X.

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2015, 07:36:59 pm »
0

A lot of beginners seem to think that Magic: The Gathering works this way.
Magic did work that way originally. Then they churned through various fixes until the 6E rules.

It's an example of how Magic is there on the border; it was the game that got people to figure out how to handle interacting rules on cards. The games that came up against this barrier previously just had endless lists of rulings and rules arguments.
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Grujah

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2015, 08:23:37 pm »
0

I agree with liopoil.

MTG actually has it in rules that you can "take shortcuts" with passing priorities, cuz that's how it actually plays out.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2015, 10:48:24 pm »
0

I agree that's annoying. It would be very easy to make a house rule that you just have to make the choice in clockwise order from the player whose turn it is, and this fixes everything. Dominion has this rule in it, and IMO every game where it can be relevant should have it or a variation of it.

I suggested that rule when playing Coup actually; after some thought and discussion, I was overruled.
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AdamH

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2015, 06:47:18 am »
+2

I agree that's annoying. It would be very easy to make a house rule that you just have to make the choice in clockwise order from the player whose turn it is, and this fixes everything. Dominion has this rule in it, and IMO every game where it can be relevant should have it or a variation of it.

I suggested that rule when playing Coup actually; after some thought and discussion, I was overruled.

I've found in Coup that there are very few circumstances where this matters. If someone claims Duke or Ambassador, then these are things that anyone at the table may challenge but people rarely actually do. In the case of Duke, it's very easy to undo the action, so if someone says "Duke take three" the next person just waits a few seconds for any challenges to happen. We've never had an issue with this.

In the case of Ambassador, when someone claims Ambassador, we make it so that before they look at the cards, they'll say something like "anyone want to challenge me? Going once, going twice..." This way, if they're challenged they don't get to look at the cards. Once again we've never had a problem with multiple people challenging here.

As for other challenge-able things, it's usually on one person to actually challenge: the guy who's getting assassinated or stolen from. And they have something to react to because those actions are all blockable. So usually there's a pause while they decide if they want to challenge, block, or maybe both (if the challenge doesn't work out for them). While it's technically allowed for someone else to challenge here, it never actually happens unless the victim decides not to challenge, in which case other people have had plenty of time to think about it and know they're going to challenge if the victim doesn't.

I'm reminded of this thread, it's about a different game but there's a process that's become bogged down. I don't know if this is happening for you but a suggestion there was just to only play with people that keep things moving. I have a reputation in my group for playing games that normally take an hour (Ra, for example) and getting them done in 30 minutes by eliminating downtime from stuff like this. I like short games :P
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popsofctown

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2015, 09:44:41 am »
+2

My suggestion: Don't play Space Cadets Duel Dice, Munchkin, or Coup.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2015, 09:51:03 am »
+5

My suggestion: Don't play Space Cadets Duel Dice, Munchkin, or Coup.

But I said I wasn't talking about Space Cadets Dice Duel; I like that game. And I like Coup as well. But yeah, not playing Munchkin is just good advice to give anyone, ever.
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popsofctown

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2015, 10:14:52 am »
+1

That is true.  Hopefully my nonparticipation highlights that "people who like coup" and "people who are particularly irritated when there's no defined priority" might largely be disjoint groups, though.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2015, 10:40:29 am »
0

That is true.  Hopefully my nonparticipation highlights that "people who like coup" and "people who are particularly irritated when there's no defined priority" might largely be disjoint groups, though.

Nothing worse than being someone whose in 2 different groups that are largely disjoint! To take it even further, I also don't particularly like bluffing games. I also don't particularly like games where you have to choose a specific opponent to attack. But I like Coup.
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AdamH

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2015, 10:43:27 am »
0

That is true.  Hopefully my nonparticipation highlights that "people who like coup" and "people who are particularly irritated when there's no defined priority" might largely be disjoint groups, though.

Nothing worse than being someone whose in 2 different groups that are largely disjoint! To take it even further, I also don't particularly like bluffing games. I also don't particularly like games where you have to choose a specific opponent to attack. But I like Coup.

There's a lot I can forgive in a game if it only takes 5 minutes to play. Not much at all I can forgive if it takes 2 hours or more.

So many things about One Night Ultimate Werewolf are just really bad (Drunk, anyone?), but I love that game. TTA is a really really solid game, but one card exists (Uncertain Borders) and I will just refuse to play TTA unless that card can be removed (which sadly means I don't play online anymore :( )
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2015, 10:48:07 am »
+1

Uncertain Borders? That's where you draw the line? Not Napoleon or Classic Army or Rats?

No hostility intended. Just curious.
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AdamH

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2015, 10:57:46 am »
0

Most games I play are 2P (due to length, I just stop having fun once a game hits the 2-hour mark) and Uncertain Borders will usually just decide the game. You can't even play around it unless you draw it, so if you don't draw the card, you're forced to go heavy into Age 1 military for potentially no reason, and you can never play events if you're behind on military. You're at a huge disadvantage and you can't really say ymyosl because there are very few viable ways to draw extra military cards in Age I.

As for Rats, I've never been wrecked by Rats ever. I've actually never heard any hate before related to that card. What is so bad about Rats?

And Nappy/Classic Army? I've had people play that on me before and and I've been able to get through it. Sure, you might have to prioritize taking Nappy if he shows up early in Age 2 and you haven't seen Classic Army, but it doesn't seem unbeatable to me.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2015, 10:58:30 am »
0

That is true.  Hopefully my nonparticipation highlights that "people who like coup" and "people who are particularly irritated when there's no defined priority" might largely be disjoint groups, though.

Nothing worse than being someone whose in 2 different groups that are largely disjoint! To take it even further, I also don't particularly like bluffing games. I also don't particularly like games where you have to choose a specific opponent to attack. But I like Coup.

There's a lot I can forgive in a game if it only takes 5 minutes to play. Not much at all I can forgive if it takes 2 hours or more.

So many things about One Night Ultimate Werewolf are just really bad (Drunk, anyone?), but I love that game. TTA is a really really solid game, but one card exists (Uncertain Borders) and I will just refuse to play TTA unless that card can be removed (which sadly means I don't play online anymore :( )

Exactly. I also love One Night; we played it immediately after Coup the other night.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Games without a defined priority/turn order
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2015, 11:09:14 am »
0

As for Rats, I've never been wrecked by Rats ever. I've actually never heard any hate before related to that card. What is so bad about Rats?

And Nappy/Classic Army? I've had people play that on me before and and I've been able to get through it. Sure, you might have to prioritize taking Nappy if he shows up early in Age 2 and you haven't seen Classic Army, but it doesn't seem unbeatable to me.

Rats was really just a throw-in for the sake of making there be three other things; two felt wrong. But it was the first third thing I could think of that always makes people groan at my table.

And I get what you're saying abotu Uncertain Borders, to a point, but I've played a decent amount of 2p also, and I feel like you basically always have to be ahead in military in 2p, regardless of any specific event. I agree that you shouldn't be playing events when you're behind in military in 2p, unless you've seeded basically all the previous events. Too often I've seen Napoleon/Classic Army/both basically decide a 2p game that was otherwise close, though.
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