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Roadrunner7671

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Dominion Kingdoms
« on: August 31, 2015, 09:39:02 pm »
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I have made a fan-made expansion like many others before me. The theme I suppose is expenses, but there many be a sub-theme of player interaction. I would appreciate feedback! In games using cards from this expansion, you would include Platinums and Colonies using the same way you include them with Prosprerity cards (the last card to come up determines it, coin flip, etc).

Lord-Action-$5
+1 Card
+1 Buy
+1 Coin
+1 VP Token

King-Action-$5
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+1 VP Token
Take a coin token
Draw up to 4 cards in your hand

Slave-Action-$4
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Victory Cards cost $1 less this
turn, but no less than $0
Gain a Slave

Orchard-Victory-$4
Worth 1 VP for every $5 worth of
Treasure in your deck

Coat of Arms-Action Reaction-$4
+1 Action
+2 Coins
When one of your cards is trashed, you may
top deck this and gain a card from the
trash

Shepard-Action-$5
Draw a card for every 2 cards in
your hand (rounded down)

Tiara-Trasure-$7
Worth $1 for every 2 Action Cards in
play (rounded down)

Palace-Action-$4
+2 Actions
+2 Coins

Assassin-Action Attack-$5
+1 Card
+1 Coin
Each other player may gain a
Curse or 2 Curses and 2 VP
tokens

Priest- Action Attack-$5
+1 Coin
You may trash a card from
your hand
Each other player gains a Curse
or a Copper and an Estate, their
choice

Religion-Action-$4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose two: trash the top card
of your deck, trash the top card
of your discard pile, trash the top
card of your deck, or +1 Buy (the
choices must be different)

Bribe-Action Attack-$5
Choose one:
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Or each other player gains
a Curse and a card costing up
to $3

Pioneer-Action-$6
+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of
your deck. Put two in your hand
and trash or discard the other one

Plague-Action Attack Victory-$4
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) trashes
a card from their hand or gains a Curse
覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧
Worth 1 VP

Queen-Action-$7
+1 Buy
+1 Coin
Take two Coin Tokens

Gallows-Action Attack-$7
Each player may trash a Treasure
card from their hand costing $3 or
or more, or else they gain a Curse.
You gain all the trashed cards.

Again, thanks for the feedback!

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AJD

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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2015, 11:49:11 pm »
+2

Some comments!

Lord: I don't think this is different enough from Monument to be interesting.

King: Donald X avoided creating cards that give VP tokens and +Action because it makes it too easy to create a deck where you just generate +VP every turn and don't have to buy anything and the game never ends. The fact that this generates coin tokens and +Buy mitigates that somewhat, though, since if you do build the degenerate deck you can just stock up coin tokens until you can buy a bunch of Provinces and end the game, but I don't know if I'm convinced by it. Maybe.

Slave: Seems really weak for $4.

Orchard: Not well-defined. What if your deck has Bank in it?

Coat of Arms: Donald X avoids designing cards that give +$2 and +1 Action and some other bonus and cost $4 because it's too obviously better than Silver. I like the reaction, but could you give it a different on-play effect?

Shepard: Do you mean Shepherd? ...Anyway, I dunno, there's a reason Madman's a hard-to-get one-shot and Bank costs $7. This is terminal, but I stil suspect it's too crazy (excuse me, cwazy) for $5.

Tiara: Maybe this should cost less than $7? Not sure though.

Palace: See my notes on Coat of Arms.

Assassin: I like the attack. (Should probably be worded: "Each other player gains a Curse. He may gain another Curse; if he does, he takes 2 VP tokens.") But make it give either +2 cards or +$2; one of each just feels kind of awkward.

Priest: Interesting.

Religion: Donald X avoids cards that depend on what's on top of your discard pile because it makes people have to pay attention to what's on top of their discard pile and that's annoying to do. I think a card that can make people trash the top card of their deck sight unseen is probably too dangerous for anyone to want to use, too. (Even Lookout gives you a choice.)

Bribe: Seems really weak for $5. And the two options kind of have nothing to do with each other; I don't see why they're on the same card.

Pioneer: Seems strong for $6. Probably would even be strong for $6 if you had to discard and didn't have the option of trashing.

Plague: Compares unfavorably to Bishop, I think. It's not much of an attack unless there's another strong trasher, and if there's another strong trasher why aren't you using that?

Queen: Simple but probably fine.

Gallows: Harsh!

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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2015, 02:28:06 am »
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About most of these, I'll just agree with AJD.
other comments:

Orchard: It's worse than just variable coin like bank. The word 'worth' is ambiguous. You need to make it clear whether it's cost or coin production. I can tell you mean coin production, so maybe you could say "At the end of the game, all your treasure cards produce coin as if you played them except that variable coin treasures always produce $2. Worth 1 VP for every 5 coins produced this way." It would be a bit clunky but it would be clear and possibly worth the clunkiness.
(*This is a little hypocritical of me because I'm fine with putting "worth $X" on my treasure cards, but with a victory card that depends on a treasure's coin production /"worth", you should be clear about it.)

Coat of Arms: Donald X avoids designing cards that give +$2 and +1 Action and some other bonus and cost $4 because it's too obviously better than Silver. I like the reaction, but could you give it a different on-play effect?
Or you could just make it cost $5. This is easily my favorite of these cards.

The attack/interaction parts of Priest, Bribe, Plague, and Gallows seem to be too similar to each other. I think you should pick your favorite one or two of these to work on and drop the others.

Queen looks boring.

Gallows: Harsh!
Actually this card is strictly worse than Witch, which at least gives +2 cards. Gallows just gives out curses. It even provides an alternative to getting a curse, and does very little for the person who played it. And the fact that the attack includes the person who played it makes it very weak.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 02:29:29 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2015, 09:34:10 am »
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King: Donald X avoided creating cards that give VP tokens and +Action because it makes it too easy to create a deck where you just generate +VP every turn and don't have to buy anything and the game never ends. The fact that this generates coin tokens and +Buy mitigates that somewhat, though, since if you do build the degenerate deck you can just stock up coin tokens until you can buy a bunch of Provinces and end the game, but I don't know if I'm convinced by it. Maybe.


I think that giving a coin token and +buy is plenty enough to eliminate the problem of not buying cards and just gaining VP instead. It does way more than Monument does to get you to buy cards. I don't think the problem with VP token cards is being non-terminal; there's still plenty of Kingdoms where you can play a bunch of Monuments every turn.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2015, 10:18:26 am »
+1

King: Donald X avoided creating cards that give VP tokens and +Action because it makes it too easy to create a deck where you just generate +VP every turn and don't have to buy anything and the game never ends. The fact that this generates coin tokens and +Buy mitigates that somewhat, though, since if you do build the degenerate deck you can just stock up coin tokens until you can buy a bunch of Provinces and end the game, but I don't know if I'm convinced by it. Maybe.


I think that giving a coin token and +buy is plenty enough to eliminate the problem of not buying cards and just gaining VP instead. It does way more than Monument does to get you to buy cards. I don't think the problem with VP token cards is being non-terminal; there's still plenty of Kingdoms where you can play a bunch of Monuments every turn.

Giving a Coin token and +1 Buy incentivizes buying more Kings until they're gone, especially because it self-combos with non-terminal draw-to-X. To play multiple Monuments you need villages and card draw. King does it all.
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AJD

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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2015, 10:31:45 am »
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Gallows: Harsh!
Actually this card is strictly worse than Witch, which at least gives +2 cards. Gallows just gives out curses. It even provides an alternative to getting a curse, and does very little for the person who played it. And the fact that the attack includes the person who played it makes it very weak.

Oops, I missed that it let the victim choose. (I assume that including the person who played it is a typo, though.)
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AJD

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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2015, 10:40:52 am »
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Coat of Arms: Donald X avoids designing cards that give +$2 and +1 Action and some other bonus and cost $4 because it's too obviously better than Silver. I like the reaction, but could you give it a different on-play effect?
Or you could just make it cost $5. This is easily my favorite of these cards.

The thing about making it cost $5 as is is that the reaction is pretty situational葉here need to be either trashing attacks or trash-for-benefit for it to do anything meaningful. Those aren't super-rare, but they're not ubiquitous either. And, well, look at the other Reaction cards. On a board with no trashing, you might still pay $3 for cantrip +Buy; on a board with no Attacks, you might still pay $2 for +2 Cards or discard-for-coin or gaining 3 Coppers to hand. But you'd never buy this as is on a board with no trashing.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2015, 11:07:01 am »
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Some comments!

Lord: I don't think this is different enough from Monument to be interesting.

King: Donald X avoided creating cards that give VP tokens and +Action because it makes it too easy to create a deck where you just generate +VP every turn and don't have to buy anything and the game never ends. The fact that this generates coin tokens and +Buy mitigates that somewhat, though, since if you do build the degenerate deck you can just stock up coin tokens until you can buy a bunch of Provinces and end the game, but I don't know if I'm convinced by it. Maybe.

Slave: Seems really weak for $4.

Orchard: Not well-defined. What if your deck has Bank in it?

Coat of Arms: Donald X avoids designing cards that give +$2 and +1 Action and some other bonus and cost $4 because it's too obviously better than Silver. I like the reaction, but could you give it a different on-play effect?

Shepard: Do you mean Shepherd? ...Anyway, I dunno, there's a reason Madman's a hard-to-get one-shot and Bank costs $7. This is terminal, but I stil suspect it's too crazy (excuse me, cwazy) for $5.

Tiara: Maybe this should cost less than $7? Not sure though.

Palace: See my notes on Coat of Arms.

Assassin: I like the attack. (Should probably be worded: "Each other player gains a Curse. He may gain another Curse; if he does, he takes 2 VP tokens.") But make it give either +2 cards or +$2; one of each just feels kind of awkward.

Priest: Interesting.

Religion: Donald X avoids cards that depend on what's on top of your discard pile because it makes people have to pay attention to what's on top of their discard pile and that's annoying to do. I think a card that can make people trash the top card of their deck sight unseen is probably too dangerous for anyone to want to use, too. (Even Lookout gives you a choice.)

Bribe: Seems really weak for $5. And the two options kind of have nothing to do with each other; I don't see why they're on the same card.

Pioneer: Seems strong for $6. Probably would even be strong for $6 if you had to discard and didn't have the option of trashing.

Plague: Compares unfavorably to Bishop, I think. It's not much of an attack unless there's another strong trasher, and if there's another strong trasher why aren't you using that?

Queen: Simple but probably fine.

Gallows: Harsh!
Thank you for pointing that out about Orchard, I will probably either scrap it or majorly change it. The reason Coat of Arms gives +1 Action +2 Coins is so that you have to buy less Silver, making yout opponents treasure stealing attacks hit less. The reason I made Tiara $7 was because I saw someone play a 16 action chain, and I figured that Tiara would always be better than a Gold in an engine. I could knock the +1 Buy off of Shepherd, but that wouldn't make it too much weaker. If there is another strong trasher with Plague, your Plague will turn into a $4 Curser of your opponents go for Chapel!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2015, 11:23:13 am »
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King: Donald X avoided creating cards that give VP tokens and +Action because it makes it too easy to create a deck where you just generate +VP every turn and don't have to buy anything and the game never ends. The fact that this generates coin tokens and +Buy mitigates that somewhat, though, since if you do build the degenerate deck you can just stock up coin tokens until you can buy a bunch of Provinces and end the game, but I don't know if I'm convinced by it. Maybe.


I think that giving a coin token and +buy is plenty enough to eliminate the problem of not buying cards and just gaining VP instead. It does way more than Monument does to get you to buy cards. I don't think the problem with VP token cards is being non-terminal; there's still plenty of Kingdoms where you can play a bunch of Monuments every turn.

Giving a Coin token and +1 Buy incentivizes buying more Kings until they're gone, especially because it self-combos with non-terminal draw-to-X. To play multiple Monuments you need villages and card draw. King does it all.

Right, but even if you build a deck that can play a bunch of Kings per turn, then you'll end the game with a win because you'll have a whole bunch of coin tokens and the buy to use them all at once for the win. While maybe harder to build, a deck that can play a bunch of Monuments per turn is much more likely to never end.

In other words, the risk of VP tokens isn't based on how easy it is to gain a bunch per turn. The risk is based on how likely it is that you'll never want to end the game.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 11:26:21 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2015, 11:44:18 am »
+1

Re: Tiara, it is a bit insane in an engine, why not make it harder to buy in engines?

$5 Tiara,
Worth 1 per 2 actions you have in play (rounded down).
-----------------
In your Buy phase, this costs an additional $1 per action you have in play.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2015, 12:37:31 pm »
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Re: Tiara, it is a bit insane in an engine, why not make it harder to buy in engines?

$5 Tiara,
Worth 1 per 2 actions you have in play (rounded down).
-----------------
In your Buy phase, this costs an additional $1 per action you have in play.
I like that quite a lot! That way if you try to buy it early, it isn't worth much, but if you try to buy it late, it costs a whole lot of coins!
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AJD

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Re: Dominion Kingdoms
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2015, 04:14:27 pm »
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Thank you for pointing that out about Orchard, I will probably either scrap it or majorly change it. The reason Coat of Arms gives +1 Action +2 Coins is so that you have to buy less Silver, making yout opponents treasure stealing attacks hit less.

There's only like three Treasure-stealing attacks, though. You shouldn't design the whole card around such a specific interaction. (And if it makes your opponents' Treasure-stealing attacks hit less, then you're not even going to be using the reaction, which is the fun part of this card.

Quote
If there is another strong trasher with Plague, your Plague will turn into a $4 Curser of your opponents go for Chapel!

But it will Curse you just as much as your opponents! Or if you haven't Chapeled down and they have, they can probably deal with the Curses.
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