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Author Topic: key cards in Dominion: a report card.  (Read 47204 times)

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Chris is me

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #100 on: September 15, 2015, 08:24:02 am »
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I'm not sure about Gear. Maybe it's better than Courtyard, but at $3 Oracle exists, and I would not say it is better than Oracle, and I am pretty sure I don't have Oracle in my top 10. I have played some games with Gear, and when I did buy it, I did not feel it was anything special. Maybe I am playing it wrong.

No way, not even close. I would take a Gear over Oracle in almost any situation. It's hard to explain without playing it with you or showing you logs but it's phenomenal.

Here's just a few basic situations when Gear comes in handy. The most obvious utility is in a BM deck, but it's useful just about anywhere. In BM you can afford to overload on terminals even slightly more than with Courtyard - you just set aside what you collided. Hit $4? Put aside a Copper for next turn. About to shuffle? Just set aside all of your Victory cards (actually, there's very little reason not to always set aside Victory cards if you aren't setting aside something else). Already had a decent hand? Set aside some of your good cards for an awesome $7 turn. Got a hand that's like Village / Smithy / Gear / 3 crap cards? Play Gear, set aside the Village / Smithy, start your next turn with 7 cards and have your engine ready to fire.

Quote
I like Gear but the hyperbole about it is strange to me. It's a solid card but being terminal balances it out a lot, I think. On this scale I'd give it a B at best.

The fact that Gear is a terminal is a bit misleading, because it's more like a card that's either a Wharf, Caravan, or Courtyard depending on what's most convenient for you. The utility is in both what it can do and what options it gives you. It's really quite useful.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 08:25:29 am by Chris is me »
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #101 on: September 15, 2015, 08:45:28 am »
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Okay, I can see Gear being better than Oracle in BM games, but I am still pretty sure that Oracle is much better in engines where you can sift through your deck to your key cards and also prevent your opponent from drawing their key cards. And, nowadays, BM games are becoming more and more rare.

Although, like I said, maybe I am just playing the card wrong. Fwiw, I have not had any BM games come up with Gear in it yet.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 08:46:31 am by Beyond Awesome »
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Chris is me

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #102 on: September 15, 2015, 01:23:27 pm »
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Okay, I can see Gear being better than Oracle in BM games, but I am still pretty sure that Oracle is much better in engines where you can sift through your deck to your key cards and also prevent your opponent from drawing their key cards. And, nowadays, BM games are becoming more and more rare.

Although, like I said, maybe I am just playing the card wrong. Fwiw, I have not had any BM games come up with Gear in it yet.

It's not just BM - I just had an easier time coming up with examples (by the way, Adventures has several cards increasing the viability of BM, such as Relic, Treasure Trove, COTR (really), etc). In engines, it either increases your hand size by 1, increases your hand size next turn by 1, or -1 this turn +2 next turn, and you get to choose which cards those are. Fun tricks include setting aside Cellar with all of your Victory cards, setting aside a Village you don't need now to guarantee one next turn, setting aside a pair of +actions / + cards to be safe for next turn, setting aside a trashing card with junk if this turn is productive, setting aside your good cards if this turn isn't going to be productive (say you have village, gear, and remake). Once it's online it should be a lot more clear since we can share logs.

In engines, you get to play several Gear, leading to ridiculous scenarios where you start your hand with half your deck in it. But since setting aside cards is optional, it's a draw card at worst.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 01:25:39 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2015, 02:29:11 pm »
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Why weren't there any a+s?
]

Chapel and KC are both A+ cards.  Neither can be ignored and both are the key cards to build/execute any engine based strategy.

I kind of think moneylender should be an A- too.  Early TFB helps building any stategy and thinning a deck helps all but quirky weird strategies that involve coppers or estates (ie crossroads).

Overall great list though.


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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2015, 02:34:53 pm »
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Yes, Counting House is never great. Just an empty space on the board, always.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140515/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1400207171957.txt

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yeah all it takes is mountabank, scheme , festival and plaza and it's great...  ;)
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2015, 02:39:32 pm »
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Nice article, I like the idea.
Only changes I would make are:

Counting house: C- > C or maybe C+
Doesn't happen often, but when it is good it can be the centerpiece of your strategy.

Talisman : B > B- or C+
I very rarely find this to be a key card.

Explorer: C+ > B
Can be a strong card in slogs, especially with alt VP.
Talisman can be a key card if there are any 3/4 cost cards people race for (fools gold/menagerie/single villages where other + actions arent available). And can be especially good when used in combination with any cost reducers like bridge/quarry, enabling u to grab 4-6 5 or 6 point cards in one turn.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2015, 02:51:44 pm »
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I also agree with almost all things AdamH said, but I'm not so sure about Sea Hag. It's not the best curser in the game, but it's still a curser, and it's pretty cheap for one as well. It's still stronger than Young Witch because it topdecks the Curse and doesn't have a Bane card, which imo makes up for the sifting. Also, wasn't it voted the best $4 card in the game once or twice? Would be kind of weird to rank it B then.

Cursers tend to have the game revolve around them in general.

Sea Hag does absolutely nothing for you except take up an Action. If your opponent can get rid of that Curse, then he's better off doing that instead of getting Sea Hag (unless it's something awful like Trade Route). Young Witch does something for you and that's a big deal.

Sea Hag was voted best $4 card in the game at one point, and I'm of the opinion that that was a giant mistake made by the community (myself included, I remember ranking it high at one point). I've said it before and had people reeling, but I stand behind it: Sea Hag is not a very good card. If I'm challenging your basic intuition about these cards, if I'm saying something that feels really off-base to you, then good. That's exactly what I want to do. The "conventional wisdom" surrounding these two cards is wrong. Maybe I should write an article about it? Hmm...

Sea Hag and IGG are the two more ignoreable Cursers. More so than Familiar and Soothsayer; the fact that they hand out purples and can still be ignored as often as they can speaks to how weak they are.
IGG is rarely ignorable. as it rapidly depletes 2 piles, something no other card does.
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AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2015, 03:09:07 pm »
+4

IGG is rarely ignorable. as it rapidly depletes 2 piles, something no other card does.

A lot of people think this is true, but it super-isn't true.

Let's say my opponent is going for the Canonical IGG Rush™ -- without some serious help, he's getting one IGG per turn, and then when those are gone, he buys Duchies. Let's say he gets near-perfect draws and can buy an IGG for 10 straight turns, starting at T3, then he can buy a Duchy every single turn after that. So the game is over on T20. That's like forever, and all you have to do is get 5 Provinces and trash most of your Curses and you just win. 20 turns is like an eternity; if there's any decent trashing at all, any respectable engine (or even a good big money strategy) will have no problem with this.

Enablers like Remodel or whatever can potentially speed this up by a couple of turns, sure. Let's be super-generous and say you have 16 turns to do your business. Still more than enough time, just don't help them empty the piles.

Of course a good IGG player will see you not mirroring him and go for Provinces after draining the IGGs, or maybe do something else better than emptying Duchies, but at this point, you're still getting more time, which will favor a player without 10 IGGs in his deck.

A lot of what I said about Sea Hag applies with IGG, if there's any good trashing at all (I'd say the Sea Hag list is a pretty good starting point) you can get away with IGG-noring it. At the very least, you certainly aren't going to do an IGG rush where you try and empty piles like what's being suggested, but rather you might do IGGs with something else -- since IGG isn't a totally dead card that eats up your action like Sea Hag is, it's a little more viable.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2015, 03:11:24 pm »
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yeah all it takes is mountabank, scheme , festival and plaza and it's great...  ;)

Nah, it just takes any board with great engine payload but no trashing and no other draw (depending on the payload, you might also need something like Cellar or Warehouse to make it work). They aren't super common, but they are there every now and then.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #109 on: September 17, 2015, 10:45:25 am »
+4

IGG is also hurt by other Cursers.  Once Sea Hag or whatever starts handing out Curses as well, IGG can no longer do its pile-emptying job.  You end up with an empty Curse pile, and a few more Coppers left.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2015, 11:16:35 am »
+4

IGG is also hurt by other Cursers.  Once Sea Hag or whatever starts handing out Curses as well, IGG can no longer do its pile-emptying job.  You end up with an empty Curse pile, and a few more Coppers left.

While your first and last sentence are true; IGG does its pile emptying job as much in a game with Sea Hag as it does in a game without Sea Hag... in both cases, 10 IGGs need to be purchased in order to empty 2 piles. You just are less likely to want to buy an IGG to empty the IGG pile after the Curses are gone.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #111 on: September 18, 2015, 03:50:38 pm »
+1

IGG does its pile emptying job as much in a game with Sea Hag as it does in a game without Sea Hag... in both cases, 10 IGGs need to be purchased in order to empty 2 piles. You just are less likely to want to buy an IGG to empty the IGG pile after the Curses are gone.

Except that since IGG is really a bad card on its own, the implication of gaining one is to distribute curses, and this often has the connotation of the full on IGG-rush that is entirely predicated on the IGG pile and the curse pile running out at the same time.  The very fact that IGGs are left over when curses are gone is a major strike against the myth that IGG is well-used as a rush strategy.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #112 on: September 18, 2015, 04:26:25 pm »
0

IGG is also hurt by other Cursers.  Once Sea Hag or whatever starts handing out Curses as well, IGG can no longer do its pile-emptying job.  You end up with an empty Curse pile, and a few more Coppers left.

While your first and last sentence are true; IGG does its pile emptying job as much in a game with Sea Hag as it does in a game without Sea Hag... in both cases, 10 IGGs need to be purchased in order to empty 2 piles. You just are less likely to want to buy an IGG to empty the IGG pile after the Curses are gone.

Its pile emptying job is emptying the curse pile, plain and simple. It can't do this if sea hag has done the job for it. All three of wero's sentences are correct.
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Chris is me

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #113 on: September 19, 2015, 02:06:41 pm »
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IGG is also hurt by other Cursers.  Once Sea Hag or whatever starts handing out Curses as well, IGG can no longer do its pile-emptying job.  You end up with an empty Curse pile, and a few more Coppers left.

While your first and last sentence are true; IGG does its pile emptying job as much in a game with Sea Hag as it does in a game without Sea Hag... in both cases, 10 IGGs need to be purchased in order to empty 2 piles. You just are less likely to want to buy an IGG to empty the IGG pile after the Curses are gone.

Its pile emptying job is emptying the curse pile, plain and simple. It can't do this if sea hag has done the job for it. All three of wero's sentences are correct.

The second sentence isn't true, though. In either situation, buying ten Ill-Gotten Gains results in two piles being empty, so the job is done at the purchase of the tenth IGG.  The hang-up of "but my last two IGGs don't do anything" is to some extent psychological.

That isn't to say that IGG isn't made worse by the presence of Sea Hag, but it still works. IGG isn't a bad card to have in hand if you're really rushing just Duchy. I could see a game where I go for IGG even though Swindler or Jester gave out one Curse; whatever.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 02:08:22 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #114 on: September 24, 2015, 06:58:09 pm »
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IGG is rarely ignorable. as it rapidly depletes 2 piles, something no other card does.

A lot of people think this is true, but it super-isn't true.
...

It always makes me sad when you hate on the IGG Rush, Adam.  I never understood the card at all till you destroyed me with it when we met IRL.  I learned then, and I still find it to be true, without at least ok trashing you will lose if you IGGnore.  Buying apprentices is not gonna deal with all those purples.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #115 on: September 24, 2015, 08:39:01 pm »
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Buying apprentices is not gonna deal with all those purples.

Plus, IGG combos well with TFB cards like Apprentice, since it's rather useless for a $5 card once it's in your deck. Therefore, Apprentice on the board is an extra reason to pursue IGG.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #116 on: September 24, 2015, 08:48:31 pm »
0

IGG is rarely ignorable. as it rapidly depletes 2 piles, something no other card does.

A lot of people think this is true, but it super-isn't true.
...

It always makes me sad when you hate on the IGG Rush, Adam.  I never understood the card at all till you destroyed me with it when we met IRL.  I learned then, and I still find it to be true, without at least ok trashing you will lose if you IGGnore.  Buying apprentices is not gonna deal with all those purples.

IGG is pretty good, didn't I give it a B+? That's not bad at all! It's just that people around here seem to think it's much stronger than it actually is. <3
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #117 on: October 01, 2015, 12:54:14 pm »
0

I don't think anyone involved thinks it's stronger than it actually is.  It's a non-engine card, and those are the easiest to measure.

I think you're rating it B+ because you're looking at it from the number of exciting, high power level decks it's involved in (like, zero), instead of the proportion of boards where "Oh, I didn't notice we had IGG involved here" is a big mistake (like, 92% or something).

There are people around here, my guess is more than 50% of the people reading this, that think when IGG is on a board, the board is an IGG rush and you just look for the best enabler(s) for it. Like it's on the same level as Rebuild in terms of polarizing. And I'm saying it isn't. I also don't think I've been unclear as to what I've been saying or why, and many people around here don't want to change their opinion on it -- that's OK, many people still disagree with me about Jack but that's fine with me :)

I'm rating it a B+ because I think that's where it belongs. It's a junker, it gives Purples, that's really good, so yeah it's a good grade. But it's below most of the other cards that can do the same thing because it isn't as good at giving Purples and helping you win as other junkers.

IGG is a gainer, and sometimes your high power level decks just need a card that gains other cards: Forager and Spice Merchant say hi. It's rare, it exists, and I don't think that affects the rating I give it here. If I judged it solely on this I'd give it the same grade as Coppersmith or Woodcutter, whatever those are.

But 92% of boards you can't ignore it? I mean, maybe you're saying something different here -- it's tough to win a game where you play like you will be getting zero Purples and your opponent starts giving them to you, so sure you trash a bit more if you see your opponent going for IGGs. Maybe the number were you actually make adjustments to your play because the card is on the table is 92%, but the number of games where I'm playing what I think is the best strategy and I end up gaining an IGG? 55%, give or take like 10-15%. And let's be real, I think the number is really 50% or lower but it was close enough to 55% that I just couldn't resist :P
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #118 on: October 01, 2015, 01:21:57 pm »
0

Salvager likes IGG.  More so for turning them into than dealing with Curses.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #119 on: October 01, 2015, 03:05:56 pm »
0

I don't think anyone involved thinks it's stronger than it actually is.  It's a non-engine card, and those are the easiest to measure.

I think you're rating it B+ because you're looking at it from the number of exciting, high power level decks it's involved in (like, zero), instead of the proportion of boards where "Oh, I didn't notice we had IGG involved here" is a big mistake (like, 92% or something).

There are people around here, my guess is more than 50% of the people reading this, that think when IGG is on a board, the board is an IGG rush and you just look for the best enabler(s) for it. Like it's on the same level as Rebuild in terms of polarizing. And I'm saying it isn't. I also don't think I've been unclear as to what I've been saying or why, and many people around here don't want to change their opinion on it -- that's OK, many people still disagree with me about Jack but that's fine with me :)

I'm rating it a B+ because I think that's where it belongs. It's a junker, it gives Purples, that's really good, so yeah it's a good grade. But it's below most of the other cards that can do the same thing because it isn't as good at giving Purples and helping you win as other junkers.

IGG is a gainer, and sometimes your high power level decks just need a card that gains other cards: Forager and Spice Merchant say hi. It's rare, it exists, and I don't think that affects the rating I give it here. If I judged it solely on this I'd give it the same grade as Coppersmith or Woodcutter, whatever those are.

But 92% of boards you can't ignore it? I mean, maybe you're saying something different here -- it's tough to win a game where you play like you will be getting zero Purples and your opponent starts giving them to you, so sure you trash a bit more if you see your opponent going for IGGs. Maybe the number were you actually make adjustments to your play because the card is on the table is 92%, but the number of games where I'm playing what I think is the best strategy and I end up gaining an IGG? 55%, give or take like 10-15%. And let's be real, I think the number is really 50% or lower but it was close enough to 55% that I just couldn't resist :P

And could you prove it instead giving big talk but nothing to back that up? Here are games that I found with logsearch, could you say why in majority of these games you would never gain igg with optimal strategy?



2015/10/01 09:40
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
LosChikitos    1st    28    18    
Melody Violine    2nd    24    18    
Provinces / Shelters - Copper, Curse, Doctor, Duchy, Estate, Feodum, Gold, Haggler, Hermit, Ill-Gotten Gains, Merchant Ship, Pillage, Pirate Ship, Province, Silver, Village, Pearl Diver
Log Viewer Kingdom

2015/10/01 09:27
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
mnip    2nd    36    24    
mikepcoke    1st    39    24    
Provinces / Estates - Bandit Camp, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Expand, Fairgrounds, Gold, Ill-Gotten Gains, JackOfAllTrades, Journeyman, Moneylender, Province, Remodel, Silver, Witch, Beggar
Log Viewer Kingdom

2015/10/01 09:15
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Qbrick    1st    22    18    
sijurani    2nd    21    18    
Provinces / Estates - Advisor, Baker, Cellar, Copper, Cultist, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Ill-Gotten Gains, Mining Village, Potion, Province, Ruins, Saboteur, Silver, Squire, Wharf, Vineyard
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2015/10/01 09:08
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Trenton Wierenga    1st    38    17    
kiz    2nd    31    18    
Provinces / Estates - Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Governor, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Monument, Navigator, Oasis, Outpost, Province, Remodel, Silver, Stonemason, Lighthouse
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2015/10/01 09:07
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Monsieur X    2nd    37    23    
Hollhis    1st    44    24    
Provinces / Shelters - Bridge, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Ghost Ship, Gold, Hunting Grounds, Ill-Gotten Gains, Ironmonger, Mine, Potion, Province, Silk Road, Silver, Trader, Watchtower, Vineyard
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2015/10/01 09:03
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Signalize    1st    19    18    
honkeyfresh    2nd    6    18    
Colonies, Estates - Armory, Colony, Copper, Counting House, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Feast, Ghost Ship, Gold, Ill-Gotten Gains, Menagerie, Peddler, Platinum, Province, Saboteur, Silver, Trade Route, Cellar
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2015/10/01 08:58
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Death B4 Dishonor    1st    58    27    
lorbrandork    2nd    31    26    
Provinces / Estates - Bureaucrat, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Expand, Gold, Harem, Ill-Gotten Gains, King's Court, Native Village, Pirate Ship, Province, Silver, Trader, Vagrant, Beggar
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2015/10/01 08:55
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Nomad Camps    2nd    34    18    
zeTerror    1st    41    18    
Provinces / Estates - Butcher, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Expand, Gold, Hunting Grounds, Hunting Party, Ill-Gotten Gains, Merchant Guild, Mining Village, Mint, Province, Silver, Smugglers, Hermit
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2015/10/01 08:54
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Daniela Weber    2nd    31    27    
manos    1st    36    28    
Provinces / Estates - Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Graverobber, Hoard, Ill-Gotten Gains, Knights, Province, Remake, Royal Seal, Silver, Tournament, Trading Post, Workshop, Village
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2015/10/01 08:08
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
João Silva    1st    39    20    
Trueblue    2nd    31    21    
Provinces / Estates - Copper, Coppersmith, Curse, Duchy, Embassy, Envoy, Estate, Gardens, Gold, Hunting Party, Ill-Gotten Gains, Mandarin, Province, Silver, Smugglers, Talisman, Embargo
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2015/10/01 08:02
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Brettanomyces    2nd    0    16    
Bobby Madness    1st    30    15    
Provinces / Estates - Bandit Camp, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Hunting Party, Ill-Gotten Gains, King's Court, Library, Nomad Camp, Province, Remake, Silver, Trading Post, Wharf, Cutpurse
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2015/10/01 07:59
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Gretz    2nd    25    15    
Gordon Ng    1st    36    15    
Provinces / Estates - Copper, Coppersmith, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Familiar, Gold, Ill-Gotten Gains, JackOfAllTrades, Junk Dealer, Mine, Mystic, Potion, Province, Silver, Storeroom, Warehouse, Doctor
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2015/10/01 07:45
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
(V)_°,,,°_(V)    2nd    1    10    
Magnus Bjerkeng    1st    0    10    
Colonies, Estates - Armory, Border Village, Colony, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Platinum, Plaza, Province, Quarry, Remodel, Silver, Trade Route, Woodcutter, Chapel
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2015/10/01 07:39
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Andylos    2nd    34    25    
tinkerbettina    1st    38    26    
Provinces / Estates - Contraband, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Haggler, Ill-Gotten Gains, Ironmonger, Jester, Mandarin, Minion, Outpost, Province, Silver, Venture, Bridge
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2015/10/01 07:35
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
ドミニオンは糞ゲー    2nd    9    14    
sopianent    1st    36    14    
Provinces / Shelters - Apothecary, Band of Misfits, Copper, Curse, Cutpurse, Duchy, Estate, Expand, Gold, Harem, Ill-Gotten Gains, Potion, Province, Rogue, Scavenger, Silver, Stash, Cellar
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2015/10/01 07:23
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
dsdfs    2nd    -4    18    
Sayanel    1st    1    18    
Provinces / Estates - Chancellor, Copper, Courtyard, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Feast, Gold, Haggler, Ill-Gotten Gains, Margrave, Province, Secret Chamber, Shanty Town, Silver, Workshop, Chapel
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2015/10/01 07:11
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
Victoria Pei    1st    12    20    
Dan823    2nd    -1    19    
Provinces / Shelters - Bureaucrat, Copper, Cultist, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Ill-Gotten Gains, Ironmonger, Jester, Monument, Province, Ruins, Scout, Silver, Spy, Witch, Poor House
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2015/10/01 07:06
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
ドミニオンは糞ゲー    2nd    9    17    
sopianent    1st    20    17    
Provinces / Estates - Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Expand, Gold, Harvest, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Province, Scout, Sea Hag, Silver, Spy, Taxman, Wharf, Fortune Teller
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2015/10/01 07:00
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
HF    2nd    7    15    
piez    1st    17    15    
Provinces / Shelters - Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Forge, Gold, Horse Traders, Ill-Gotten Gains, Knights, Merchant Ship, Prince, Province, Silver, Storeroom, Tournament, Treasure Map, Menagerie
Log Viewer Kingdom

2015/10/01 06:59
Player:    Rank:    VPs:    Turns:    Quit?
dhammer    1st    38    25    
sopianent    2nd    31    25    
Provinces / Estates - Cache, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Forge, Gold, Great Hall, Ill-Gotten Gains, Knights, Mine, Philosopher's Stone, Potion, Province, Rogue, Shanty Town, Silver, Herbalist
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #120 on: October 01, 2015, 03:40:19 pm »
+6

IGG gain percentages for some people (from http://www.2pih.com/cardAnalyzer.php)

Mic Qsenoch - 38%
Stef - 45.7%
Adam - 50.9%
SCSN - 54.5%
lespeutere - 59.4%
WanderingWinder - 60%
hiroki - 70.4%
Aggregate from top 20 players on isotropish leaderboard from some time ago - 57.09% (link)

Nobody has enough games to get a really representative sample. I think I had the highest winrate with IGG in the kingdom. It's clear to me that the card can be ignored successfully, but also that it can be played with successfully as well. It's definitely a card that you have to consider while reading a board. No way numbers like 90% are reasonable though.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 03:50:57 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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luser

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #121 on: October 01, 2015, 03:55:08 pm »
0

IGG is rarely ignorable. as it rapidly depletes 2 piles, something no other card does.

A lot of people think this is true, but it super-isn't true.

Let's say my opponent is going for the Canonical IGG Rush™ -- without some serious help, he's getting one IGG per turn, and then when those are gone, he buys Duchies. Let's say he gets near-perfect draws and can buy an IGG for 10 straight turns, starting at T3, then he can buy a Duchy every single turn after that. So the game is over on T20. That's like forever, and all you have to do is get 5 Provinces and trash most of your Curses and you just win. 20 turns is like an eternity; if there's any decent trashing at all, any respectable engine (or even a good big money strategy) will have no problem with this.

Enablers like Remodel or whatever can potentially speed this up by a couple of turns, sure. Let's be super-generous and say you have 16 turns to do your business. Still more than enough time, just don't help them empty the piles.

That analysis is nonsense as duchy rush is what happens on mirror where with coppers, five curses and igg you couldn't hope for province. If uncontested it spikes four provinces just fine. Thats quite hard to overcome on simulation following will beat most rspeer's strategies, even double mountebank, double witch, pure rebuild. It could be beaten only with mountebank/witch-chapel, drunk marine students, beggar-gardens, feodum-masterpiece and rebuild+x

{
  name: 'igg bm'
  author: 'luser'
  requires: ["Ill-Gotten Gains"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Ill-Gotten Gains"
    "Gold"
    "Silver"
  ]
}
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AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #122 on: October 01, 2015, 03:59:03 pm »
0

I'm not sure what exactly this is going to accomplish, since I'm backing up my talk with just more talk, but OK I'll do this for a bit. I can think of quite a few boards that I have videos of where IGG is ignorable, but I don't have the means to go digging for that right now.

PPE: As I'm typing this, MQ has posted actual relevant statistics that are much more valid than anything in this post, but I'm mostly done so I'll just finish it anyways.

1. Doctor, Feodum, Haggler, Hermit, Ill-Gotten Gains, Merchant Ship, Pillage, Pirate Ship, Village, Pearl Diver
This one is pretty close, it's kind of sloggy since there's no draw and Hermit+Feodum with Haggler to help out. I could see Province Hands with a Haggler in play where you choose to Haggle IGGs as a points play in the endgame, but man, I want a million Hermits anyways so I've got better things to do than get IGGs here and I don't care about the Purples. It's likely I don't want IGG here.

2. Bandit Camp, Expand, Fairgrounds, Ill-Gotten Gains, JackOfAllTrades, Journeyman, Moneylender, Remodel, Witch, Beggar
What a wonderful kingdom, Jack-in-an-engine-ish. Anyways, IGG is outclassed by Witch here so this one is definitely a no.

3. Advisor, Baker, Cellar, Cultist, Ill-Gotten Gains, Mining Village, Saboteur, Squire, Wharf, Vineyard
There's a lot going on here, you probably want to build for a minute before rushing for Vineyards, I don't expect to have much time for IGGs here as this will quickly turn into a "slush" for Vineyards where the junk matters less.

4. Governor, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Monument, Navigator, Oasis, Outpost, Remodel, Stonemason, Lighthouse
Tough one here, Governor is a monster and so is Stonemason, so IGG definitely isn't the centerpiece of the game, but I think you gain them here because the Purples are really annoying. I'm not positive on that, but we'll just say you get them here to be conservative.

5. Bridge, Ghost Ship, Hunting Grounds, Ill-Gotten Gains, Ironmonger, Mine, Silk Road, Trader, Watchtower, Vineyard
Trader, Watchtower, huge draw. There are a million things going on here so I'm not wasting my time with IGGs. This is actually a really cool board.

6. Armory, Counting House, Feast, Ghost Ship, Ill-Gotten Gains, Menagerie, Peddler, Saboteur, Trade Route, Cellar
No way around it, the trashing is super-bad so you have to go for IGGs, probably some Counting Houses, maybe? That depends a lot on what your opponent is doing.

7. Bureaucrat, Expand, Harem, Ill-Gotten Gains, King's Court, Native Village, Pirate Ship, Silver, Vagrant, Beggar
I like IGGs here at some point. They aren't the focus, I don't think, but gaining them at some point is good.

8. Butcher, Expand, Hunting Grounds, Hunting Party, Ill-Gotten Gains, Merchant Guild, Mining Village, Mint, Smugglers, Hermit
Nopearoo, you have to play around the presence of IGG here but gaining them? I don't think so unless we get really edge-casey. Hermit and Mint are really good for getting thin and keeping the Curses out and this draw and payload is bonkers.

9. Graverobber, Hoard, Ill-Gotten Gains, Knights, Remake, Royal Seal, Tournament, Trading Post, Workshop, Village
I don't know what the best thing here is, but with Remake around and lots of shenanigans, I'm pretty sure you're better off with Knights for quite some time than IGG.

10 . Coppersmith, Embassy, Envoy, Gardens, Hunting Party, Ill-Gotten Gains, Mandarin, Smugglers, Talisman, Embargo
No village, no trashing, two prime IGG enablers (Gardens and Coppersmith). Even with Embargo around, IGG is pretty good here unless Embargoed.

11. Bandit Camp, Hunting Party, Ill-Gotten Gains, King's Court, Library, Nomad Camp, Remake, Trading Post, Wharf, Cutpurse
Remake again, and here's a huge engine with an explosive payload. No IGGs for me, please.

12. Coppersmith, Familiar, Ill-Gotten Gains, JackOfAllTrades, Junk Dealer, Mine, Mystic, Storeroom, Warehouse, Doctor
Jack and Junk Dealer are pretty good here for trashing Curses. It's funny because if Familiar wasn't on this board it would be an easy call for me to IGGnore IGG, but if my opponent goes for Familiar, I can just get a couple of IGGs to even out the Curse split. So that makes it bad to go for Familiar. so that means you don't want IGGs. Isn't Dominion a wonderful game? So the "optimal strategy" to me doesn't involve IGG, but I can easily see where I might end up getting them.

13. Armory, Border Village, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Plaza, Quarry, Remodel, Trade Route, Woodcutter, Chapel
Chapel? Signs are point to no, but I could see some endgame situations where you might get some IGGs if your opponent builds a deck that would be annoyed by them.

14. Contraband, Haggler, Ill-Gotten Gains, Ironmonger, Jester, Mandarin, Minion, Outpost, Venture, Bridge
No trashing. Sadly you have to go for them here.

15. Apothecary, Band of Misfits, Cutpurse, Expand, Harem, Ill-Gotten Gains, Rogue, Scavenger, Stash, Cellar
It's close, but I think you have to go for IGGs here.

16. Chancellor, Courtyard, Feast, Haggler, Ill-Gotten Gains, Margrave, Secret Chamber, Shanty Town, Workshop, Chapel
Chapel and a big engine, I'll pass.

17. Bureaucrat, Cultist, Ill-Gotten Gains, Ironmonger, Jester, Monument, Scout, Spy, Witch, Poor House
Cultist and Witch on the board, so IGG is outclassed (is there anything at all I'd buy other than Cultist?) Hmm, OK maybe if the Duchies are out and you desperately need a point you'd get one? Seems a little strange but let's be generous and give this one a "maybe in some cases"

18. Expand, Harvest, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Scout, Sea Hag, Spy, Taxman, Wharf, Fortune Teller
Ooh, cool board. I'll be getting Sea Hag for my cursing, though. I don't think the Taxman stuff would be best here.

19. Forge, Horse Traders, Ill-Gotten Gains, Knights, Merchant Ship, Prince, Storeroom, Tournament, Treasure Map, Menagerie
Again with Tournament and Knights, I think I'll pass on the IGGs though, because Forge just deals with it and you should be drawing your deck most of the game anyways.

20. Cache, Forge, Great Hall, Ill-Gotten Gains, Knights, Mine, Philosopher's Stone, Rogue, Shanty Town, Herbalist
Ooh, what a cool board (as long as Dame Anna is on the bottom of the pile, as always), looks like Herbalist/Phil Stone might actually be best here. IGG actually supports that, though, so I guess you get them, unless your opponent goes heavy Knights. Maybe you still get them. A lot depends on what your opponent does, but IGGs are good here in some cases.


So let's be super-arbitrary and divide these 20 kingdoms into some categories:

0. Definitely Yes: 5
1. Probably Maybe Yes™: 2
2. Probably Not: 5
3. Defo Nopearoonies™: 8

So on the IGGnoreable scale of 0-3, we have a total of 36 out of a possible 60 points, for 60% IGGnoreable, which is close enough to 55% that I just want to call it 55. I mean, this whole scale was just something I invented that doesn't look immediately awful and gets me close to 55, which is really all I wanted. I should also say that I didn't think about these all that hard, so I may want to revise my opinions on them. Oh well, this was fun. B+ would do again (see what I did there?)
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #123 on: October 01, 2015, 04:03:06 pm »
+4

Thats quite hard to overcome on simulation following will beat most rspeer's strategies, even double mountebank, double witch, pure rebuild. It could be beaten only with mountebank/witch-chapel, drunk marine students, beggar-gardens, feodum-masterpiece and rebuild+x

Fortunately, people playing Dominion who aren't braindead don't have to worry about whatever strategies are included with a simulator because kingdoms have 10 cards.
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AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #124 on: October 01, 2015, 04:07:09 pm »
+1

IGG is rarely ignorable. as it rapidly depletes 2 piles, something no other card does.

A lot of people think this is true, but it super-isn't true.

Let's say my opponent is going for the Canonical IGG Rush™ -- without some serious help, he's getting one IGG per turn, and then when those are gone, he buys Duchies. Let's say he gets near-perfect draws and can buy an IGG for 10 straight turns, starting at T3, then he can buy a Duchy every single turn after that. So the game is over on T20. That's like forever, and all you have to do is get 5 Provinces and trash most of your Curses and you just win. 20 turns is like an eternity; if there's any decent trashing at all, any respectable engine (or even a good big money strategy) will have no problem with this.

Enablers like Remodel or whatever can potentially speed this up by a couple of turns, sure. Let's be super-generous and say you have 16 turns to do your business. Still more than enough time, just don't help them empty the piles.

That analysis is nonsense as duchy rush is what happens on mirror where with coppers, five curses and igg you couldn't hope for province. If uncontested it spikes four provinces just fine. Thats quite hard to overcome on simulation following will beat most rspeer's strategies, even double mountebank, double witch, pure rebuild. It could be beaten only with mountebank/witch-chapel, drunk marine students, beggar-gardens, feodum-masterpiece and rebuild+x

{
  name: 'igg bm'
  author: 'luser'
  requires: ["Ill-Gotten Gains"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Ill-Gotten Gains"
    "Gold"
    "Silver"
  ]
}

There's a lot wrong with this. I'm going to do my best to try and stay constructive here.

First of all, I'm not talking about a mirror. In a mirror, of course the game will speed up, that's what happens when the same piles are being contested by more than one person. The whole point of my analysis is something that you have missed (because you called it nonsense and started talking about mirrors and other things that don't hold water) -- when not mirrored, it's not hard to overcome IGGs with any sort of reasonable trashing.

Second of all, in a mirror, you don't want to gain Coppers unless it helps you hit an important price point OR there's some enabler like Gardens or Coppersmith or something that gives you a reason. The whole reason behind not wanting extra Coppers is so that you have the best chance to hit Province, which is usually decisive in a mirror. It's also usually decisive in non-mirrors and in lots of other circumstances, but that's a lot more complicated and not really important.

Third of all, simulation results don't mean anything here, because the things you're pairing it against aren't optimized to play assuming they're getting Curses from IGGs. Simulators are good at predicting win-rates of non-interactive strategies, mostly money-based strategies. IGG is interactive so of course you have to play differently.

I don't know what "drunk marine students" is but I know none of those other strategies involve any form of Curse-trashing, which is important for fighting an IGG strategy.
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