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Author Topic: key cards in Dominion: a report card.  (Read 51874 times)

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markusin

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2015, 03:42:32 pm »
+3

Different decks have different optimal balances between trashing and gaining. Steward and Amulet are at slightly different places on the spectrum, but are not too far off. Chapel would be at one extreme in the spectrum and Moneylender on the other.

Steward trashing makes the quality of the gains you get early lower compared to Amulet when it trashes. If you can make up for that lost time with great multi-gain potential and/or consistency, go for the Steward. You'll be rewarded with the +2 cards option and +2 coins every turn if you draw your deck as opposed to +1 coin with Amulet. If card gaining potential is more limited, you need to start getting those key cards sooner, and Amulet helps you do that.

I can't imagine these two cards being very far off in lower level or relevance. I'd expect them to have the same letter grade or only off by half a + or -.

If you stubbornly look at each card in super-engine vision, you'll see Steward as being significantly stronger. Contrary to what people will have you believe sometimes a Big-Money-ish deck aiming to buy 1 Province a turn that gets just enough fancy stuff to balance out the green is the winning strategy. Amulet helps towards that kind of deck more than Steward. You have to recognize if such a deck is possible when you analyze a board, because Amulet will boost it's power considerably.

I'd put Amulet and Steward at A- because they are key components to making certain decks viable. B+ is also a reasonable grade.

I will admit that in the increasingly engine-driven environment we seem to be headed in Steward looks like the stronger card on average. That still doesn't mean Amulet isn't a card to carefully consider when seeing it on the board.
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LastFootnote

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #76 on: September 10, 2015, 05:02:32 pm »
+4

Amulet is a wonderful slog enabler, it's much better for Big Money than Steward is. But Amulet is not very good at trashing cards because it's super slow.
Trade Route is super slow. Anything that can trash 2 cards per play (which Amulet can) is strong trashing. Yes it misses more shuffles. I think the ability to trash one card from each of two hands rather than two cards from one hand makes up for that.

I agree with SCSN: C+ is a ridiculously low score for Amulet by any measure.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2015, 05:07:02 pm »
+3

Amulet rules
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SCSN

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #78 on: September 10, 2015, 05:10:54 pm »
+4

Amulet is not very good at trashing cards because it's super slow.

I disagree with each pixel of every letter you wrote but most strongly with this.

Cards that trash faster than Amulet: Count, Chapel, Steward, Forge, sometimes Doctor and, depending on the board, Remake and Ambassador. Slower: all the others, including elite trashers like Forager, Masq, JD and Upgrade. That doesn't qualify as "super slow" by any reasonable metric.
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gkrieg13

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2015, 06:45:00 pm »
+2

I feel like wine merchant is pretty low as well.  You can often play multiple of them on a turn and it is a great alternative to gold as a payload because it is an action.  It works well with scrying pool and herald, and the more you can play, the better it becomes.  ok maybe it isn't that great but I think it should be a C+ or B-
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AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #80 on: September 10, 2015, 07:13:56 pm »
+5

Amulet is not very good at trashing cards because it's super slow.

I disagree with each pixel of every letter you wrote but most strongly with this.

I disagree with each molecule of every cell in your keyboard. And with your face. I disagree with your face.

Amulet can trash at most one card per turn, and you're extremely lucky if you get that. The fact that it's terminal means you have a much more difficult time loading up on them to compensate for that, and this weakness is compounded when it misses shuffles, which is very likely to happen. I am not persuaded by you, and the number of +1s on your post will not change my mind either.

And I don't think I'm going to persuade you right now; I'd be a little scared if I did since we're both just talking out of our hindquarters here anyways. So I'm going to bookmark this moment in my mind and in a year when we've all played several hundred Amulet games online (lol) we'll come back and revisit this and we'll all see how right I am and how correct I am to disagree with all of your keyboard and face molecules. I mean really, how can you disagree with my punctuation in that sentence? It was objectively flawless. You've hurt that apostrophe's feelings!
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SCSN

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #81 on: September 10, 2015, 07:34:20 pm »
+7

Judging Amulet by it trashing at most one card per turn is misleading. It's like saying that because Wharf draws at most 2 cards per turn it's on par with Moat, though I'm sure it's the buy that makes it worth $5.

The proper metric is, of course, how much it does for you per play, and that is trash 2 cards, just like Steward. That it misses early shuffles a bit more often than Steward is what makes it a slightly weaker trasher overall, but in the end it's just a minor disadvantage shared by all duration cards and certainly not something that makes its expected speed "really slow".
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 07:37:08 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Asper

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #82 on: September 10, 2015, 08:26:49 pm »
0

Generally, i have the feeling Amulets (dis)advantage is that instead of doing one thing fully and another thing another time, it mixes things up. That doesn't only go for the bonuses, but also for the fact that after using it to trash you usually will still be able to buy something, even though it's unlikely to be a strong card you buy. Stewart on the other hand trashes more cards at once, having a few dead turns, and gets to a tight deck faster.

Now we all know that a weak and a strong turn are better than two mediocre turns. But are there situations where this doesn't hold? Maybe there are boards where you actually want to mix up things, that is, clean up your deck and pick up cards at the same time, instead of cleaning up first and getting (stronger?) cards after that. I don't really know, but if i was to make up such a board, i would probably give it a lack of relevant $5 cards and an abundance of good $4s and $3s. Or possibly a lack of +Buy where you can only pick up one part a turn and are grateful for being able to do both things at once. Obviously this still leaves out important things like trashing timing and Silver vs cards, so maybe these will turn my speculations around.
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LastFootnote

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #83 on: September 10, 2015, 10:23:04 pm »
+2

Now we all know that a weak and a strong turn are better than two mediocre turns. But are there situations where this doesn't hold?

Not only are there situations where it doesn't hold, but there are so many such situations that I don't think this "maxim" even deserves that status. Early on, would you rather have a $2 hand and an $8 hand, or two $5 hands? It's really all dependent on the board and how far along the game is.

Tactician costing $5 is held up as evidence of this rule, but really Tactician is pretty awful without support. It's just that Tactician support is often available. Any time you can do things before playing Tactician (e.g. Minion) or benefit from a very large hand (e.g. Coppersmith), Tactician is good. And of course double-Tactician can be great. But Tactician in Big Money is pretty poor.
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AJD

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2015, 01:09:22 am »
+1

Amulet can trash at most one card per turn, and you're extremely lucky if you get that. The fact that it's terminal means you have a much more difficult time loading up on them to compensate for that, and this weakness is compounded when it misses shuffles, which is very likely to happen.

...Wait, how does missing shuffles compound that weakness? I think it mitigates it—the reason terminality is a problem is because if two of them collide one is dead, but the fact that it's a Duration card means that if you have two copies they're less likely to collide.
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Awaclus

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #85 on: September 11, 2015, 03:48:40 am »
+1

...Wait, how does missing shuffles compound that weakness? I think it mitigates it—the reason terminality is a problem is because if two of them collide one is dead, but the fact that it's a Duration card means that if you have two copies they're less likely to collide.

Missing shuffles doesn't mitigate getting a ton of copies of a terminal Action. Getting a ton of copies of a terminal Action mitigates missing shuffles.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #86 on: September 11, 2015, 08:57:40 am »
+2

Thanks Adam for posting a list polarizing enough to actually inspire the conversation we've hoped for :)

Besides Amulet, which has been discussed enough in my opinion, I have a few other cards that I'd like to adress:

Royal Carriage is an A-? It seems to me that is a bit more convenient and planable than throne room and therefore more expensive. I've not considered a star of a board so far.

Borrow an A? It doesnt seem that good at all to me. Maybe nice for hitting 5 once early or so, but besides that?

Pilgrimage. Is is really that bad? I get that spending 4 and a buy one turn without getting anything is pretty bad, but on the second turn you can gain three cards, which can be easily 15-16 worth in coins. It seems like a decent investment. You probably need a good engine board for it to be worthwhile and it might be completely ignorable on some boards, but putting it on a level of Thief really surprises me.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #87 on: September 11, 2015, 09:10:26 am »
+1

Thanks Adam for posting a list polarizing enough to actually inspire the conversation we've hoped for :)

Besides Amulet, which has been discussed enough in my opinion, I have a few other cards that I'd like to adress:

Royal Carriage is an A-? It seems to me that is a bit more convenient and planable than throne room and therefore more expensive. I've not considered a star of a board so far.

Borrow an A? It doesnt seem that good at all to me. Maybe nice for hitting 5 once early or so, but besides that?

Pilgrimage. Is is really that bad? I get that spending 4 and a buy one turn without getting anything is pretty bad, but on the second turn you can gain three cards, which can be easily 15-16 worth in coins. It seems like a decent investment. You probably need a good engine board for it to be worthwhile and it might be completely ignorable on some boards, but putting it on a level of Thief really surprises me.

I think Borrow is a an A. I'm not Adam though, and have not played anywhere near as many Adventures games as him,  but having that extra coin available always helps. It's presence completely changes the game.


However, I am curious about Pilgrimage at C+. I have played just a couple of games with it. But, one game was an insane engine that was made insane by Pilgrimage. Sure, it costs $4 and then $4, but is that really that bad? I don't think so. And, so what if it takes two turns to kick off, you are gaining three cards at once, likely one or two of them are at least $5 costs, and probably a good $4 cost like a Herald or something. I mean, sure, it might not be good for some engines, but I think most engines benefit when Pilgrimage is present, and seeing how the game has turned very engine friendly, I think this Event is good in well, most games. Then again, I could be wrong, and maybe the kingdoms I played with it were anomalies, but I doubt that.

I would also rank Peasant and Page the same. Sure, Champion is crazy insane. But, Peasant is very powerful too. On just about any board where an engine is possible, I would still take Teacher despite its slowness. I mean, that's like saying Urchin is bad because Chapel exists and is the superior trasher. Both are great cards. And, on full random, the odds of having the option of both Page and Peasant come up on the same board are pretty slim. Don't get me wrong. Champion is better than Teacher, but both are power cards.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 09:14:59 am by Beyond Awesome »
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werothegreat

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #88 on: September 11, 2015, 10:52:01 am »
+2

Also bear in mind the ease of getting to each Traveller end.  Treasure Hunter, Warrior and Hero all make it harder to get to Champion, while Fugitive and Disciple make it easier to get to Teacher.
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AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #89 on: September 11, 2015, 01:37:42 pm »
+2

Thanks Adam for posting a list polarizing enough to actually inspire the conversation we've hoped for :)

Wild speculation is fun!

Royal Carriage is an A-? It seems to me that is a bit more convenient and planable than throne room and therefore more expensive. I've not considered a star of a board so far.

Royal Carriage is actually a much better card than Throne Room, even on top of the fact that you "can never draw it dead" (the quotes meaning I'm talking about drawing it with no actions, and even then that can be edge-cased). Calling multiple Royal Carriages on the same action is really, really, really stinkin' good. It's a little bit arbitrary but I'd give Throne Room a B+ and King's Court an A, so I'd put Royal Carriage in between.

Borrow an A? It doesnt seem that good at all to me. Maybe nice for hitting 5 once early or so, but besides that?

This goes for Save and Borrow: the way I interpret this list, particularly

A = almost always a key card.

I think these are solid As, you should use them several times in any game you see them if you're playing optimally. Their effects may not be super-duper-amazing every time, but ignoring them means you're playing worse over 99% of the time, so that to me falls under A. Maybe the spirit of this list is slightly different? I dunno.

Pilgrimage. Is is really that bad?

...

Putting it on a level of Thief really surprises me.

Yeah, it really is that bad. At least Thief is an attack so it's likely to be relevant more often. It's so rare that this is actually better than nothing, especially because of that once-per-turn thing. I guess you can make an argument for it not being a C-, but I'm quite sure it doesn't deserve a C+. Sometimes Thief is game-breaking too.


I would also rank Peasant and Page the same. Sure, Champion is crazy insane. But, Peasant is very powerful too. On just about any board where an engine is possible, I would still take Teacher despite its slowness. I mean, that's like saying Urchin is bad because Chapel exists and is the superior trasher. Both are great cards. And, on full random, the odds of having the option of both Page and Peasant come up on the same board are pretty slim. Don't get me wrong. Champion is better than Teacher, but both are power cards.

I gave Peasant a B+ I think, right? Hmm, only a B? Keep in mind I haven't thought about these very much and I'm pulling most of them out of my you-know-where (just like we all are). I can see an argument being made for B+, sure. But I wouldn't called Teacher a "power card" like I would call Champion. Like, Prince is a "power card" because its effect is huge, but it's very slow so we gave it, what? Uhh, wait, nobody has actually rated Prince. Ahem,

ALLOW ME TO BE THE FIRST IN THE WORLD TO RATE PRINCE ON THIS SCALE!!!!!!!! (I'm such a trend setter!)

Prince: B

That was fun. Teacher is a bit less of an investment, kinda-sorta, OK it's apples and oranges here. Umm, I dunno, uhh, I give Peasant either a B or a B+. OK. That feels about right.

I mean, Peasant went through a LOT of changes during the testing process. Like, huge, significant changes. This card as it is now is a good card to print, but I actually haven't played many games with the final version, not nearly as many as I have with the other cards in the set.
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LastFootnote

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2015, 01:11:05 am »
0

Pilgrimage isn't really that bad.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2015, 01:23:45 am »
+2

Man I disagree with so much, but it's hard to prove how good or bad some of this stuff is without logs and hundreds of games with a better variety of players. I will say I think Adam is not giving Pilgrimage or Amulet nearly enough credit.
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terminalCopper

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2015, 06:22:58 am »
0

 Let me try my hand here ...

I guess, a year from now, I will laugh about the stupid things I am saying at this highly unexperienced stage about Adventure cards, but meh, the community would be pretty boring if no one posted wrong statements. Only exception: I did not dare to rate these travellers. It's still overwhelming complicated for me.

I also compared my list to weros and Adams, and added where we differ. Most notable exception: Giant gets all three grades. Where will it be in two years?

Coin of the Realm (B+)
Similar to fishing village: less economy, more reliability. Nice price.

Ratcatcher (B+)
Cantrip trashing with the ups and downs of a reserve card. Can’t compete with upgrade, junk dealer, but at $2, it doesn’t have to.

 Raze (B)
Nonterminal trashers can’t be that bad, but both for estates and coppers, there are better trashers.
Nice self-destruction, though.

Amulet (A-) (Adam: C+)
Because of the duration effect it roughly trashes one and a half card per shuffle, which is fine. Great in slogs, nice with feodum.

Caravan Guard C (wero:B-)
Sure it’s a nice-to-have, but opportunity cost makes it a second best choice almost every time. I’d take one for free, but that’s not what key card means.

Dungeon (B+)
Warehousy. Probably better in huge decks, and this is where warehouses shine.


 Gear (B+) (Adam: A)
Great BM enabler. Close to „play moat, play two havens“, which can help engines get off the ground as well.


 Guide (B)
Counters discard attacks, most notably ghost ship. Rarely a dominant card, but always a worthy buy, when you risk to start with a bad hand.

Duplicate (B+) Adam:B-
This is what talisman should have been: Slightly slower, but so much better at gaining those important nonterminal fives, golds, nobles, Alt-VP’s …


Magpie (A)
Either a lab or a cantrip gainer. A-mazing.

Messenger (B-)
Usually, a weak card. But, sometimes you need that woodcutter. Sometimes, a chancellor is worth it. And sometimes, gaining effects can be fancy. Due to these exceptions, not that weak.

Miser (C+) (wero:B)
We all know those jack/Hermit-games where we desperately need a copper trasher. But, not this one. Unless the board doesn’t offer faster strategys, it’s just ts;db (too slow, don’t buy).

 Port (B+) Adam:B (wero:B)
Two villages at 4$, without need of extra buy. That’s a key option in most engines, and so, on most boards.

 Ranger (B+)
Two of them draw a card less than two smithies, but to compensate, every other play is good to bring synergic cards together (Spoils/Counterfeit …). With a +buy to boot.
 
Transmogrify (A-) Adam:B (wero:B-)
It’s not really good at trashing coppers or curses. But due to the „into your hand“-clause it’s the best way to handle estates early on; same holds later for outdated cards, e.g. sea hags after the curse war. This is very strong at $4.
 

Artificer C+ (wero:B)
Seems rather situational to me. Either you have bad cards and want cheap ones, or you have some draw-to-X, or … yeah, sometimes you have 5 and just want a peddler. But at 5$,that’s not impressive.

Bridge Troll A-
Dare I say that the community mostly underestimates cards that do four little favors? Jack, Junk Dealer, Forager, Counterfeit … I guess it’s the same with bridge troll.


Distant Lands B+
Get four VP chips at the price of 5$ plus one play. That’s a good price, compared to e.g. monument, which is a decent card.

Giant B+ Adam:C (wero:A)
+3$ on average, with a strong attack every other play. That’s nice payload.

 Haunted Woods (B+)
The attack forces both players to delay greening, and three cards at the begin of the turn is terrific. On the other hand, it misses a lot of shuffles, and 5$-smithies face a tough benchmark (margrave, torturer …)

 Lost City (A) (Adam:B+) (wero:B+)
If I had to rate the strength of a card, I’d put Lost City on B or B+, as the opponents draw is huge. However, this thread is about key cards, meaning that a card changes the board. Lost City totally does.

Relic (B)
The first one is excellent, the next you play is a silver.

 Royal Carriage (B) Adam:A-
Reliable Throne Room. Reliability is more than sufficient compensation for the duration, but facing the prominent 4$-5$-gap, this is what I expect.

Storyteller (A-) Adam:B- (wero:B-)
A cantrip that turns silvers into labs, Coppers into cantrips and platinum into … 4 labs. Here it is, the BM engine. 

Swamp Hag (A-) Adam:B
It’s not far from an overpowered „+3$, each opponent gains a curse“. Sure, there’s the delay, and the self-cursing isn’t mandatory. That’s why it’s not a clear A.

 Treasure Trove (B+)
Very strong at BM, and in slogs. Still, in those enginey days it looks a little old fashioned. Would have been graded A in the base set.

Wine Merchant (C-) (wero:B-)
A woodcutter that offers you a 2$ credit. Imho, too expensive at $5.

Hireling (A-) Adam:B
Once you draw your deck, it’s just a lab. But it’s much more helpful to get to that stage, lucky is who gets it early. And in a long game, it’s irresistable.




Alms (A) Adam:B
Often terrific: E.g., with 5/2, Stables/Milita outperforms Stables/Nothing by far. Also, alms boosts moneyless engines, and it’s game-changing in slogs.

Borrow (B) Adam:A
In almost every game, there will be a situation you’re glad to use it. But does that fit the definition of a key card? I might be wrong, but I look at boards almost the same way, whether borrow is there or not.

Quest (C+)
Sometimes, even in 2015, you’re happy to grab a gold. But usually, with an attack, or a 6card-hand, that’s not a big deal. Discard two curses is way better, but who wants to have two curses?

Save (B-) Adam:A
I don’t like Haven. And Save can be even worse in the presence of down-to-x-attacks. Sure, it gets bought when cards collide, but I won’t buy much more terminals because of this option.

Scouting Party (C+)
There’s two situations you want this: You tracked your deck, and expect a bad hand, or you have two coins left. Both do occur in most games, and so, Scouting Party is frequently used. But it’s never game changing.

Travelling Fair (B)
Great combo with Counting House. Decent when engines lack +Buy.
 
Bonfire (B)
Burns those coppers at a fair, but not sensational price.

Expedition (C+) Adam:B
Rarely a big deal. And I don’t see how it changes the board. Best when you hit three but don’t want a card at that price.

Pilgrimage (B-) Adam:C
Pay 4$ twice for 3 cards can be a great deal, but it only really works late in the game, when the most work is already done.


,Ferry B+ Adam:A (wero:A)
This is a must-buy if there is a 5$ of which you want to get multiple copies, and also if you want to get multiples of a 4$, and have some source of +buy. Otherwise, it’s skippable.

Plan A- Adam:B (wero:B-)
Trash-on-buy is a very powerful speed-up if you want multiples of a specific card.

Mission B+
Depends on what you can do aside buying: Attacking? Trashing? Remodeling? The more of this stuff you can do, the more it becomes ridiculous to pay only 4$ for a turn.

Ball (C+) Adam:B
Pay 6$ for two 4$-cards? Border Village looks better. However, spammable fours make this deal quite nice. Not more.

 Raid (C) Adam:B-
Weak version of masterpiece, with an attack to compensate. The thing is, silver spamming is rarely the big deal.

Seaway (B-)
Get that +buy on all cards at the price of $5 instead of $4? Quite ok - if you need it.
Like many +buy cards, they work at their best if there is no other + buy available.

Trade (C) Adam:B (wero:B-)
One-Shot-Trading-Post, kind of. The problem is, at the stage where you have both 5$ and two cards you want to trash, you rarely want that many silvers.

Lost Arts (A) (wero:B)
Enables weird engines with terminal draw. But even with nonterminal draw like e.g. Stables, it allows tons of payload without the need of villages.

Training (B)
At the price of $6, add X peddlers to your deck, if you have X copies of the chosen card. Yeah, that can be pretty nice.

Inheritance (A-) (wero:B)
Trash three estates, gain three VP chips, gain three copies of a 4$; and for the rest of the game, you can buy at $2 a VP-chip and the 4$ card you’ve chosen. Sounds powerful? It is: If there’s a useful $4, try to get to 7$ ASAP.

Pathfinding (B+)
With X copies of a card, Pathfinding gets you X labs. That can be bonkers, but 8$ is a challenging price point.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2015, 07:22:03 am »
0

Well, since everyone else is giving grades to Adventures, I guess I will as well. I won't grade every card, just the cards I feel I have a reasonable grasp of the power level. Some cards also aren't graded if I only played one or two games with them or were never bought in a game I played.

Ratcacther A-
Trashing at $2 is really good and like Raze, it gets ride of itself and is also non-terminal, as well. And, as AdamH pointed out earlier, trashing is really, really good.

Raze A-
See Ratcatcher

Amulet A-

Caravan Guard B-

Dungeon B+

Guide A-
I think a lot of people are underestimating the ability of this card.

Magpie A
Card is crazy good.

Haunted Woods A-

Storyteller A-
You can draw lots of cards with this, lots of cards.

Swamp Hag B+

Wine Merchant C

Hireling B+

Page A
The presence of Champion changes the game completely. Last night, I played a game with Steward, Goons, Inheritance and no villages, and let me say Champion is crazy insane.

Peasant A
Teacher is really good. Yes, Teacher takes time to set up, but man, the card costs $2, plus it gives you what you need. If you lack draw, boom, problem solved. No +buy? No worry. Need some economy? Yah, it can take care of that, as well. Like Champion the presence of this card changes the game.

Alms B+

Borrow A-

Quest C+
Often, I want something other than gold in my engine. In non-engines, the card is sometimes handy.

Scouting Party B
I think like Guide, people are underestimating the sifting ability of this card.

Pilgrimage A-
On most boards with good drawing, I think this is a good two-turn investment.

Plan C+
Usually, there is better trashing available.

Ferry A-
When this is on the board, for me, planning out my strategy is actually more difficult than usual.

Mission B+

Ball B+
Works amazing if there are good fours you want like Ironmonger.

Seaway B

Lost Arts A
Card is crazy powerful.

Trade B-

Training B+

Inheritance B

Most of my grades are based on playing a few games with these cards and seeing these cards make a splashy impact the majority of the time. I'm no expert with Adventures cards by any means.
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LastFootnote

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2015, 10:37:11 pm »
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I think a lot of folks are underestimating Wine Merchant. Maybe I've played too many games where it's nonterminal (due to Lost Arts, Champion, or Teacher), but 4 or 5 Wine Merchants is a pretty sweet payload for an engine. And in a sloggier game they're nice too.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2015, 02:59:22 pm »
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Haunted Woods (B+)
The attack forces both players to delay greening, and three cards at the begin of the turn is terrific. On the other hand, it misses a lot of shuffles, and 5$-smithies face a tough benchmark (margrave, torturer …)

Haunted Woods is not a $5 Smithy variant like Margrave or Torturer. It is a Wharf variant with an attack.

Starting with an 8-card hand is HUGE. It is the best way to kickstart an engine and can keep it going from there. I still feel Haunted Woods deserves an A.
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Chris is me

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2015, 05:49:08 pm »
+2

I think a lot of folks are underestimating Wine Merchant. Maybe I've played too many games where it's nonterminal (due to Lost Arts, Champion, or Teacher), but 4 or 5 Wine Merchants is a pretty sweet payload for an engine. And in a sloggier game they're nice too.

I think a lot of people think of Wine Merchant as a card that "costs $2 to get rid of", not realizing that you only need $2 to get rid of all of your Wine Merchants. An engine that hasn't gotten off the ground is likely to underspend to pick up a component at some point without much effort, and once the engine is off the ground, you should be able to produce $2 more Coins consistently enough. It's a neat card. Somewhere in the B range.

Also agreed on Haunted Woods - though the lack of doing anything the turn you play it kinda hurts, the 8 card hand next turn more than makes up for it. It has a big influence on the kingdom when it's present, which is the definition of an A. Maybe an A- if you really wanna be conservative about it.

Also, all of y'all giving Gear less than an A- have no idea how clutch that card is. It's a top ten $3 cost for sure. Almost any kind of deck can benefit from one or two, and I really think it's stronger than Courtyard overall.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 05:50:34 pm by Chris is me »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2015, 07:24:51 pm »
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I'm not sure about Gear. Maybe it's better than Courtyard, but at $3 Oracle exists, and I would not say it is better than Oracle, and I am pretty sure I don't have Oracle in my top 10. I have played some games with Gear, and when I did buy it, I did not feel it was anything special. Maybe I am playing it wrong.

As for Wine Merchant, most players will be playing full random, so it will be a terminal most of the time. I think really trim engines can run a few of these, but most engines can't, so overall, it is a pretty weak card. At least so far from what I have seen. I mean, sometimes it's a decent payload card, but if you already have a source of +Buy, Gold exists. Sure, this produces $1 more than Gold and a +Buy, but how often do you even want to buy Gold for your deck?
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jsh357

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2015, 07:30:45 pm »
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I like Gear but the hyperbole about it is strange to me. It's a solid card but being terminal balances it out a lot, I think. On this scale I'd give it a B at best. I also think Haunted Woods should only be in B but I'll admit my opinion on it is flavored from primarily playing it in Adventures-heavy games, where it's often quite easy to counter.
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LastFootnote

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #99 on: September 14, 2015, 07:37:14 pm »
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I'm not sure about Gear. Maybe it's better than Courtyard, but at $3 Oracle exists, and I would not say it is better than Oracle, and I am pretty sure I don't have Oracle in my top 10. I have played some games with Gear, and when I did buy it, I did not feel it was anything special. Maybe I am playing it wrong.

Gear is so much better than Oracle, you (apparently) have no idea.

As for Wine Merchant, most players will be playing full random, so it will be a terminal most of the time. I think really trim engines can run a few of these, but most engines can't, so overall, it is a pretty weak card. At least so far from what I have seen. I mean, sometimes it's a decent payload card, but if you already have a source of +Buy, Gold exists. Sure, this produces $1 more than Gold and a +Buy, but how often do you even want to buy Gold for your deck?

Sure, if you already have +Buy, it's not as good. That's true of every single +Buy card.
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