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Author Topic: key cards in Dominion: a report card.  (Read 22055 times)

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jsh357

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2015, 05:55:41 pm »
+3

I agree with all of what Adam said except HP vs Lab. I don't think Lab is usually better, but they are often pretty equal. In cases where HP is a better card, like when you want to skip a bunch of Copper you can't trash quickly, it's WAY better than Lab, and the cases where Lab is better (you have a lot of duplicate cards or something) it's usually just slightly better. I would rank them both at B+
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2015, 06:46:30 am »
+2

I also agree with almost all things AdamH said, but I'm not so sure about Sea Hag. It's not the best curser in the game, but it's still a curser, and it's pretty cheap for one as well. It's still stronger than Young Witch because it topdecks the Curse and doesn't have a Bane card, which imo makes up for the sifting. Also, wasn't it voted the best $4 card in the game once or twice? Would be kind of weird to rank it B then.

Cursers tend to have the game revolve around them in general.
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AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2015, 07:19:47 am »
0

I also agree with almost all things AdamH said, but I'm not so sure about Sea Hag. It's not the best curser in the game, but it's still a curser, and it's pretty cheap for one as well. It's still stronger than Young Witch because it topdecks the Curse and doesn't have a Bane card, which imo makes up for the sifting. Also, wasn't it voted the best $4 card in the game once or twice? Would be kind of weird to rank it B then.

Cursers tend to have the game revolve around them in general.

Sea Hag does absolutely nothing for you except take up an Action. If your opponent can get rid of that Curse, then he's better off doing that instead of getting Sea Hag (unless it's something awful like Trade Route). Young Witch does something for you and that's a big deal.

Sea Hag was voted best $4 card in the game at one point, and I'm of the opinion that that was a giant mistake made by the community (myself included, I remember ranking it high at one point). I've said it before and had people reeling, but I stand behind it: Sea Hag is not a very good card. If I'm challenging your basic intuition about these cards, if I'm saying something that feels really off-base to you, then good. That's exactly what I want to do. The "conventional wisdom" surrounding these two cards is wrong. Maybe I should write an article about it? Hmm...

Sea Hag and IGG are the two more ignoreable Cursers. More so than Familiar and Soothsayer; the fact that they hand out purples and can still be ignored as often as they can speaks to how weak they are.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2015, 07:47:41 am »
+1

I also agree with almost all things AdamH said, but I'm not so sure about Sea Hag. It's not the best curser in the game, but it's still a curser, and it's pretty cheap for one as well. It's still stronger than Young Witch because it topdecks the Curse and doesn't have a Bane card, which imo makes up for the sifting. Also, wasn't it voted the best $4 card in the game once or twice? Would be kind of weird to rank it B then.

Cursers tend to have the game revolve around them in general.

Sea Hag does absolutely nothing for you except take up an Action. If your opponent can get rid of that Curse, then he's better off doing that instead of getting Sea Hag (unless it's something awful like Trade Route). Young Witch does something for you and that's a big deal.

Sea Hag was voted best $4 card in the game at one point, and I'm of the opinion that that was a giant mistake made by the community (myself included, I remember ranking it high at one point). I've said it before and had people reeling, but I stand behind it: Sea Hag is not a very good card. If I'm challenging your basic intuition about these cards, if I'm saying something that feels really off-base to you, then good. That's exactly what I want to do. The "conventional wisdom" surrounding these two cards is wrong. Maybe I should write an article about it? Hmm...

Sea Hag and IGG are the two more ignoreable Cursers. More so than Familiar and Soothsayer; the fact that they hand out purples and can still be ignored as often as they can speaks to how weak they are.

Yes, Sea Hag takes up an action, but your opponent also needs to spend an action trashing the Curse he got. That is assuming he was lucky enough to have the Curse and the trasher collide. Your Sea Hag takes up one card slot, but your opponent needs to spend two - both the Curse and the trasher take up a card slot. And it gets worse with multiple plays of the Sea Hag. Of course, this is moot if there is very strong trashing like Chapel on board, in which case Sea Hag isn't too great... but this is only the case in a small number of games.

I do agree IGG is not too great, because it junks you almost as much as your opponent. The only exception is with TFB cards (Apprentice/Salvager or Remodel family), in which case IGG's $5 cost is an asset instead of a liability.
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markusin

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2015, 08:42:25 am »
+4

I think it should be emphasized that the gradings don't directly relate to strength, but how important they tend to be on a board. If you always have to ask "why don't I want this card?", then that card should probably be given an A grade.

With Sea Hag, Hunting Party, and IGG, the though process is "Okay if I get these, then what? What should be my ultimate goal here? Surely there's got be something better than SH/IGG/HP + X right?". These are cards whose value cannot be approximated on a given board at all without considering the rest of the board, but you're bound to consider them at some point.

What I'm trying to say is that those 3 cards would fit well in the B grade. Maybe IGG and HP can make it to B+ since they do have go-to monolithic strategies that players should be aware of and go for on weak boards. Sea Hag doesn't even have that.

Compare with stuff like Witch and Mountebank, where the thought process is "Hey, do I basically win if I play these a lot and win the curse split? What cards work with and against Witch/Mountebank?". These cards are deserving of the A grade.

Edit: spelling
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 08:49:34 am by markusin »
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AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2015, 08:45:13 am »
+3

Yes, Sea Hag takes up an action, but your opponent also needs to spend an action trashing the Curse he got. That is assuming he was lucky enough to have the Curse and the trasher collide. Your Sea Hag takes up one card slot, but your opponent needs to spend two - both the Curse and the trasher take up a card slot. And it gets worse with multiple plays of the Sea Hag. Of course, this is moot if there is very strong trashing like Chapel on board, in which case Sea Hag isn't too great... but this is only the case in a small number of games.

If the trasher is terminal and provides you no benefit, then yeah, the Sea Hag player is on the better end of the deal. So stuff like Stonemason and Develop are no good there.

But let's take Steward or Remake. If you're playing an action every shuffle to give me a Curse, and I'm playing one every shuffle to remove the Curse and another bad card from my deck, then I'm coming out ahead. Anything that trashes more than one card at a time pwns Sea Hag here, like, even Trading Post comes out clearly on top here.

Even the ones that trash one card at a time, you're still doing OK. Forager and Lookout are both really good (Lookout hard-counters Sea Hag and Forager gives you money) and these don't cost an Action so you can load up on these. This includes Upgrade, Junk Dealer, etc.

As for the bolded statement, I think I just plain disagree. I went through that list above (so no Adventures) and listed all of the cards that would, by themselves, make me just ignore Sea Hag (any card where I have any question at all I left off the list). Here it is:

Chapel
Witch
Masquerade
Steward
Trading Post
Upgrade
Lighthouse
Ambassador
Lookout
Mountebank
Remake
Young Witch
Jack
Trader
Forager
Urchin
Count
Cultist
Junk Dealer
Rebuild
Soothsayer

So you need to pick 9 cards from 205 and miss all 21 of these for Sea Hag to have a chance at being worth buying. The odds of that are (if I didn't screw up the math):

Code: [Select]
184*183*182*181*180*179*178*177*176
-----------------------------------
205*204*203*202*201*200*199*198*197

198175675938824263680
--------------------- = 37%
535108662793138896000

This is a conservative estimate, and it implies that 63% of the time you see Sea Hag, you're best off not buying her. This doesn't include the maybes either like Forge, Watchtower, Doctor and those guys who just need a little bit of support and they're in the same ballpark.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 08:48:54 am by AdamH »
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drsteelhammer

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2015, 09:14:12 am »
+2

Keep in my mind that this rating wasn't supposed to rate the strength, but the possibility of being a "key card". So we don't average out the strength of the card considering all possible boards, but look at the strongest ones.

So IGG is definitely an A or A- for me. If it is on the board, you'll have to consider your possibilities how to avoid losing to an IGG rush and if you can't, you need to contest them. This is what fits the criteria ehunt used here almot completely. Of course it is bad on lots of boards, but you have to spend a second thinking about that card when you look at the board everytime.

I don't think Hunting Party and Sea Hag fit that criteria, as they don't alter your strategy that much as IGG, a B or B+ seem fitting.

That said, we badly need a new rating of the strongest cards aswell  :)

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assemble_me

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2015, 09:17:51 am »
+1

Not so sure about these on your list, Adam:

Trading Post
Young Witch
Trader
Rebuild
Soothsayer

Trading Post: TP feels like the slowest trasher of all. I've never thought about skipping Sea Hag only because of it. With support from Hunting Party that's super good to trash curses. But otherwise... would you get 2 TP here if your opponent goes Sea Hag and you've got no support to play TP more often?

Young Witch: I think this depends heavily on the board the bane card. I guess sometimes you want Sea Hag instead of YW, sometimes both.

Trader: Ugh. I don't know. I think I'd get Sea Hag and Trader.

Rebuild: I'm not sure you don't want Sea Hag at all. You probably don't want to open with it. But maybe you want it over your fourth or fifth Silver.

Soothsayer: This is a tough call for me. I think Soothsayer is "strange", I often can't evaluate its strength well, so I'm not sure about this one. Again, I guess you might want both.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 09:22:10 am by assemble_me »
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2015, 09:39:24 am »
+1

I don't know much about Sea Hag, but the fact that IGG rushes are a strategy you must always consider as soon as IGG is on the board to me means that it's an A. It might be that IGG isn't viable sometimes, but the fact that you can't afford to not think about it speaks for itself. I think it changes how you think about the board, and that makes it a key card in my opinion. But maybe i'm thinking about this other than intended.

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2015, 09:53:07 am »
+6

While it's a bad sad to see these silly myths recurring, it's sort of nice that I can just quote my old refutations:

You give me a curse with Sea Hag, I trash it with Forager.

It only ever works that way in your head. In real life it often looks more like this (sorry RTT, it's just such a poignant example).

I actually think strong trashing makes Cursers stronger, because you can play them much more often from a trim deck so that their impact is more devastating and can't be easily countered because the Curses come with such staggering consistency while your own deck only needs to miss one beat to start drowning.

A mistake often made even by strong players is trashing down to a reasonably strong deck and then going all green, completely ignoring the Curser in the kingdom, thus opening themselves up to receive all ten Cursers over the course of a few turns from their more perceptive opponent. Two educational examples:

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130828/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1377729785165.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140127/log.507e1b8f0cf28ed55d9d85d7.1390824281210.txt

And the follow-up: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10549.msg350064#msg350064

I don't think Chapel makes Sea Hag ignorable at all. In fact, on most Chapel+Sea Hag boards I'd open Chapel/Sea Hag and on those I don't I'd be keeping Sea Hag in mind for the rest of the game as either a way to quickly kill of my opponent if I get ahead or as a desperation gamble.

The sort of trashers that make you want to not open Hag are either stuff like Amb and Masq or the expensive ones like Count, JD and Upgrade that are very hard to hit after a Hag open, but that still doesn't mean Hag is ignorable on such boards. There was a nice game between wero and I think assemble_meme last season where the board had Sea Hag, Upgrade, Margrave and King's Court. Opening Sea Hag there is a horrendous blunder because you want a ton of Upgrades asap, but once you have your deck under control and a KC or two, Sea Hag becomes an excellent way to destroy your opponent's dreams in just two turns.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2015, 09:57:49 am »
0

That said, we badly need a new rating of the strongest cards aswell  :)

Yeah! Definitely. I'm looking forward to it, it would be the first time that I get to vote ^^

Would the Adventures cards be included already, or is it still too early? And Prince?
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AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2015, 10:34:37 am »
0

Trading Post: TP feels like the slowest trasher of all. I've never thought about skipping Sea Hag only because of it. With support from Hunting Party that's super good to trash curses. But otherwise... would you get 2 TP here if your opponent goes Sea Hag and you've got no support to play TP more often?

Young Witch: I think this depends heavily on the board the bane card. I guess sometimes you want Sea Hag instead of YW, sometimes both.

Trader: Ugh. I don't know. I think I'd get Sea Hag and Trader.

Rebuild: I'm not sure you don't want Sea Hag at all. You probably don't want to open with it. But maybe you want it over your fourth or fifth Silver.

Soothsayer: This is a tough call for me. I think Soothsayer is "strange", I often can't evaluate its strength well, so I'm not sure about this one. Again, I guess you might want both.

I'll stand behind Trading Post, Trader, and Soothsayer. They're some of the more speculative entries on the list but I still think they belong.

I didn't consider the possibility of Scheme being the bane for YW, maybe that means it's off the list. I didn't put a ton of thought into it, I was just hoping to come up with an approximate number.

Rebuild: hmm, this might be a slight oversimplification. Maybe you usually want both. Hmm.

In any case, if you remove just two things from the list, you're still below 50% for when you want Sea Hag. I'm looking for an approximation here by making a very conservative estimate, I really didn't want people to look too much more into it: obviously optimal play depends very much on the other cards on the board but that isn't what this thread is about, I'm sharing my guts with you and trying to back it up by some quick calculations on a napkin.

I don't know much about Sea Hag, but the fact that IGG rushes are a strategy you must always consider as soon as IGG is on the board to me means that it's an A. It might be that IGG isn't viable sometimes, but the fact that you can't afford to not think about it speaks for itself. I think it changes how you think about the board, and that makes it a key card in my opinion. But maybe i'm thinking about this other than intended.

This is exactly the conventional wisdom I want to challenge. IGG rush is bad enough that I don't think it deserves this kind of consideration. People think it's super-fast and super-unstoppable, but it totally isn't either of those things.


I just want to point something out: I'm the one making simplifications and you're the one putting in more details and thoughtful insight. I'm truly enjoying this moment. <3

You make several good points. If your opponent doesn't go for the trashing that's available (or in any way builds a deck that's vulnerable to Sea Hag) then of course you should pick it up in the midgame once you're thin and you'll be able to wreck them. This goes for almost anything that says "Attack" on it and some things that don't.

On the other hand, for-funsies, since I know you're a fan of this kind of argument (even though it means absolutely nothing), let's try this:

Force Chapel and Sea Hag into a kingdom, randomize the other 8 cards and stuff. Do this, uhh, 55 times. How many of those kingdoms would you say Chapel/Sea Hag is a better opening than Chapel/Silver (or maybe Chapel/some other card) on a 4/3 opening? Without doing this, my guess is that your number is less than 10, and probably less than 5. If I got a Sea Hag, it would be a few turns in, after I'm thin and drawing, AND I see that it's actually going to hurt my opponent more than it hurts me. I'm not any of those things on turn 2.
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assemble_me

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2015, 10:44:24 am »
+4

Force Chapel and Sea Hag into a kingdom, randomize the other 8 cards and stuff. Do this, uhh, 55 times. How many of those kingdoms would you say Chapel/Sea Hag is a better opening than Chapel/Silver (or maybe Chapel/some other card) on a 4/3 opening? Without doing this, my guess is that your number is less than 10, and probably less than 5. If I got a Sea Hag, it would be a few turns in, after I'm thin and drawing, AND I see that it's actually going to hurt my opponent more than it hurts me. I'm not any of those things on turn 2.

When can I watch that stream of the Sea Hag + Chapel cage match ;)?
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SCSN

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2015, 10:56:28 am »
+2

Force Chapel and Sea Hag into a kingdom, randomize the other 8 cards and stuff. Do this, uhh, 55 times. How many of those kingdoms would you say Chapel/Sea Hag is a better opening than Chapel/Silver (or maybe Chapel/some other card) on a 4/3 opening? Without doing this, my guess is that your number is less than 10, and probably less than 5. If I got a Sea Hag, it would be a few turns in, after I'm thin and drawing, AND I see that it's actually going to hurt my opponent more than it hurts me. I'm not any of those things on turn 2.

Assuming Chapel/Silver and Chapel/Sea Hag are the only available or allowed 4/3 opens, I'd open Sea Hag whenever there is no 5 cost that I quickly want, which I'd loosely guess is on about 25-30 out of 55 boards? I certainly wouldn't wait a few turns when there are no immediately better plans because the whole point of getting it early is to do damage before my opponent has the chance to get his deck under control.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 10:57:59 am by SheCantSayNo »
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AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2015, 11:01:58 am »
0

Force Chapel and Sea Hag into a kingdom, randomize the other 8 cards and stuff. Do this, uhh, 55 times. How many of those kingdoms would you say Chapel/Sea Hag is a better opening than Chapel/Silver (or maybe Chapel/some other card) on a 4/3 opening? Without doing this, my guess is that your number is less than 10, and probably less than 5. If I got a Sea Hag, it would be a few turns in, after I'm thin and drawing, AND I see that it's actually going to hurt my opponent more than it hurts me. I'm not any of those things on turn 2.

Assuming Chapel/Silver and Chapel/Sea Hag are the only available or allowed 4/3 opens, I'd open Sea Hag whenever there is no 5 cost that I quickly want, which I'd loosely guess is on about 25-30 out of 55 boards? I certainly wouldn't wait a few turns when there are no immediately better plans because the whole point of getting it early is to do damage before my opponent has the chance to get his deck under control.

Why would we assume you can't open anything else? That seems totally silly. That does nothing but bias things in favor of Sea Hag by creating conditions less like an actual game of Dominion.

But even if you could only open with those two things, I'd estimate 15 instead of 25-30.

I agree with the rest of what you said, though. And I would totally do a Chapel/Sea Hag cage match with you. Not instead of our league match, but for-funsies at some point. We'd have to re-roll until we both got 4/3 openings for fairness, I think.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2015, 11:08:22 am »
+2

I am willing to believe that, with decent Curse-trashing on the board, an Ill-Gotten Gains rush is very seldom the way to go. You might still buy them opportunistically, but probably you're not rushing them.

Without Curse-trashing, getting as many Ill-Gotten Gains as possible is nearly always a priority. The idea that it "junks you almost as much as your opponent" is rubbish (sorry, Aleimon). Copper is worlds better than Curse, and Ill-Gotten Gains is at least slightly better than Copper.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2015, 11:17:58 am »
+1

I am willing to believe that, with decent Curse-trashing on the board, an Ill-Gotten Gains rush is very seldom the way to go. You might still buy them opportunistically, but probably you're not rushing them.

Without Curse-trashing, getting as many Ill-Gotten Gains as possible is nearly always a priority. The idea that it "junks you almost as much as your opponent" is rubbish (sorry, Aleimon). Copper is worlds better than Curse, and Ill-Gotten Gains is at least slightly better than Copper.

I know, I was exaggerating. Still, IGG is not a card you actually want in your deck, you only buy it for the on-buy effect. I guess it would also be good with Watchtower or Trader. Boards where you cannot trash Curses at all are rare, and even bad trashers make IGG not worth it a lot of the time, especially because of the opportunity cost associated with relatively mediocre $5's.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2015, 11:33:57 am »
+2

I know, I was exaggerating. Still, IGG is not a card you actually want in your deck, you only buy it for the on-buy effect. I guess it would also be good with Watchtower or Trader. Boards where you cannot trash Curses at all are rare, and even bad trashers make IGG not worth it a lot of the time, especially because of the opportunity cost associated with relatively mediocre $5's.

IGG is a card you actually want in your deck in IGG games. It helps you hit $8, and it gains Coppers which help you hit $5.
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AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2015, 11:39:40 am »
0

I know, I was exaggerating. Still, IGG is not a card you actually want in your deck, you only buy it for the on-buy effect. I guess it would also be good with Watchtower or Trader. Boards where you cannot trash Curses at all are rare, and even bad trashers make IGG not worth it a lot of the time, especially because of the opportunity cost associated with relatively mediocre $5's.

IGG is a card you actually want in your deck in IGG games. It helps you hit $8, and it gains Coppers which help you hit $5.

It's worse than Silver for hitting $8, and gaining Coppers in IGG games is only ever good with support like Gardens or Coppersmith. Otherwise it's actually bad.
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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2015, 11:41:22 am »
+1

Why would we assume you can't open anything else? That seems totally silly. That does nothing but bias things in favor of Sea Hag by creating conditions less like an actual game of Dominion.

But even if you could only open with those two things, I'd estimate 15 instead of 25-30.

I assumed Silver because that was your main suggestion for comparison and it's easier to answer because other cards complicate stuff a lot to the point where you might not even want to open Chapel at all. But to answer the question for general boards I just checked the data:

gokosalvager.com has 15 pro games where I had 4/3 on a board containing both Chapel and Sea Hag, on 7 of those boards did I open Sea Hag, although combining it once with Steward and once with Silver instead of Chapel, both of which decisions I disagree with in hindsight. There was another one where I opened Chapel/Silver against my opponent's Chapel/Sea Hag and got crushed. So based on this data I'd expect to open Sea Hag on about 7-8 out of 15 Sea Hag-Chapel boards, which translates to 25.7-29.3 out of 55.

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I agree with the rest of what you said, though. And I would totally do a Chapel/Sea Hag cage match with you. Not instead of our league match, but for-funsies at some point. We'd have to re-roll until we both got 4/3 openings for fairness, I think.

I dislike cursers in general and Sea Hag in particular so I'm going to have to disappoint you there, as the whole "for-funsies" aspect would be gone.
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ehunt

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2015, 12:54:32 pm »
+1

of the discussion above, the only one i really disagree with is fishing village. fishing village is the only village that all by itself makes you go, ok, i am not going to worry about terminals colliding at all this game i am not going to buy silver this game; i am building an engine this game as long as there's card draw at least as good as moat and/or trashing at least as good as trade route. it is an order of magnitude above the other villages (and the one that forces you to look at terminals you would normally just ignore);  and almost always a board-warper, and i think a solid A. i probably overrated hamlet as a mini-version of this; wherever i put hamlet, i should put squire too.

i suspect i systematically overvalue junkers, you see, my heart is in 2011, dont cry for me, i dont miss it, it was always getting hung up on politics news
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Awaclus

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2015, 01:17:23 pm »
0

It's worse than Silver for hitting $8, and gaining Coppers in IGG games is only ever good with support like Gardens or Coppersmith. Otherwise it's actually bad.

Well, gaining Coppers just because you can isn't very good in the early game, but I think it's pretty good to gain Coppers later.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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LuciferousPeridot

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2015, 01:57:35 pm »
0

If this is an article for beginners why not group by grade rather than set?

A grade = cards you need to seriously consider getting unless there is a good reason not.
C grade = cards you need to have a good reason to get.

Simple help for learners in identifying likely key and ignorable cards at the start of the game when they are struggling with all the possible interactions. Just the A and C groups will probably be small enough to remember also.
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LastFootnote

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2015, 02:01:36 pm »
+2

If this is an article for beginners why not group by grade rather than set?

Maybe because beginners are unlikely to own everything. This way they can look at the sets that are pertinent to them.
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popsofctown

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2015, 10:31:12 am »
+1

Sea Hag A   Like, this is a B at best. With any sort of decent trashing around you can safely ignore this lovely lady.

Dominion is like a child that has mutated and evolved until I can no longer recognize it, yet I somehow must love it.


Similar to the snarky "Don't buy any Mandarins until you hit iso level 35" rule, I'd probably say "Don't skip Sea Hag until you're iso level 20", unless the curses are getting literally reflected by Ambassador.  It just doesn't do that much damage even when you've bought it and it's not optimal, and it leads into a game that is easier for a beginner to play in general.


I want to say the same thing about leaving Treasure Map with an inflated ranking, but that's kinda like telling beginners to skip learning anything relevant about Dominion for 1 game and to instead buy Warehouses and Treasure Maps that will virtually never dominate the board in a i40 vs. i40 game, which is kinda sad in the personal growth sense.  (Slogs are a legit gametype to learn about, on the other hand)
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Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.
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