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Author Topic: key cards in Dominion: a report card.  (Read 20513 times)

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iguanaiguana

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #125 on: October 01, 2015, 04:08:37 pm »
+1

Luser, the problem with your sims is that you are just comparing an igg rush to a lot of big money variants. Adam is saying that you often iggnore it because you should be building an engine. Since you can't simulate engines well unless you restrict your sim to a single board, simulation isnt very helpful.

SCSN

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #126 on: October 01, 2015, 04:14:54 pm »
+4

I suggest a 20-game IGG cage-match between luser and Mic.
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luser

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #127 on: October 01, 2015, 04:58:50 pm »
0

Luser, the problem with your sims is that you are just comparing an igg rush to a lot of big money variants. Adam is saying that you often iggnore it because you should be building an engine. Since you can't simulate engines well unless you restrict your sim to a single board, simulation isnt very helpful.

No, he also claimed that strong bm will beat igg.
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JW

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #128 on: October 01, 2015, 05:23:23 pm »
+2

Luser, the problem with your sims is that you are just comparing an igg rush to a lot of big money variants. Adam is saying that you often ignore it because you should be building an engine. Since you can't simulate engines well unless you restrict your sim to a single board, simulation isnt very helpful.

No, he also claimed that strong bm will beat igg.

Let's say my opponent is going for the Canonical IGG Rush™ -- without some serious help, he's getting one IGG per turn, and then when those are gone, he buys Duchies. Let's say he gets near-perfect draws and can buy an IGG for 10 straight turns, starting at T3, then he can buy a Duchy every single turn after that. So the game is over on T20. That's like forever, and all you have to do is get 5 Provinces and trash most of your Curses and you just win. 20 turns is like an eternity; if there's any decent trashing at all, any respectable engine (or even a good big money strategy) will have no problem with this.

Noted without comment.
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Mole5000

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #129 on: October 12, 2015, 09:12:44 am »
0

IGG is rarely ignorable. as it rapidly depletes 2 piles, something no other card does.

A lot of people think this is true, but it super-isn't true.

Let's say my opponent is going for the Canonical IGG Rush™ -- without some serious help, he's getting one IGG per turn, and then when those are gone, he buys Duchies. Let's say he gets near-perfect draws and can buy an IGG for 10 straight turns, starting at T3, then he can buy a Duchy every single turn after that. So the game is over on T20. That's like forever, and all you have to do is get 5 Provinces and trash most of your Curses and you just win. 20 turns is like an eternity; if there's any decent trashing at all, any respectable engine (or even a good big money strategy) will have no problem with this.

Why is the perfect drawing Canonical IGG Rush™ buying Duchies?  They are going to snag Provinces to make it super hard to overhaul them.
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Awaclus

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #130 on: October 12, 2015, 09:22:04 am »
0

Why is the perfect drawing Canonical IGG Rush™ buying Duchies?

Because it can't buy a Province every turn, buying a Duchy every turn ends the game faster than a Province every other turn, and the IGG rush needs the game to end as fast as possible while it's still ahead.

AdamH

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #131 on: October 12, 2015, 09:48:39 am »
+1

Why is the perfect drawing Canonical IGG Rush™ buying Duchies?  They are going to snag Provinces to make it super hard to overhaul them.

Obviously this depends on a lot of things. Usually getting Provinces while going for IGGs is really good, but this example was meant to show that if IGG is just ending the game as fast as possible, it still takes forever when uncontested. I'm trying to disprove the myth that the IGG rush is fast.
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assemble_me

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #132 on: October 13, 2015, 01:22:45 am »
0

It looks like no one has voted Summon yet, right?
I guess I'd give it an A or A-. Still haven't played with it yet, but it looks like something you'd buy during most games.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #133 on: October 13, 2015, 07:01:24 am »
0

I played a few IRL games with Summon. While I wasn't able to use its full potential that was attributed by the playtesters in Summon post, I can definitely say it's very strong. You have to consider it in evey buy phase, in my opinion, so I would give it a solid A
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ehunt

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #134 on: October 13, 2015, 10:31:22 am »
+4

Why is the perfect drawing Canonical IGG Rush™ buying Duchies?  They are going to snag Provinces to make it super hard to overhaul them.

Obviously this depends on a lot of things. Usually getting Provinces while going for IGGs is really good, but this example was meant to show that if IGG is just ending the game as fast as possible, it still takes forever when uncontested. I'm trying to disprove the myth that the IGG rush is fast.

Agreed. Here's why the myth exists. I think the IGG rush is a classic example of a strategy of the following type:

1) it's pretty good
2) it's easy to execute, and small deviations from the canonical strategy do not significantly affect win percentages
3) if both players go for it, the one who does less well loses

and this combination often leads to groupthink that it's unbeatable (note that (3) is a tautology, but a psychologically relevant phenomenon).

The mono-Minion deck, especially back when there weren't many expansions, was often like this. But IGG-rush has a fourth phenomenon, which the mono-Minion deck doesn't have:

4) if your opponent plays the IGG rush, and so do you, then the IGG rush gets a lot better.

This can REALLY lead to groupthink that IGG causes boring games where the only thing to do is IGG.

All that said, I still think IGG deserves somewhere B+ or above according to these rankings; I'm inclined to put it to A-. (I don't know where it is now).

I should really go back and revise these rankings like I said I would do, both to incorporate yalls feedback and just because I've flat changed my mind in some cases. I'll set myself a reminder for the next time I get some free time.
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popsofctown

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #135 on: October 13, 2015, 01:03:15 pm »
0

Why is the perfect drawing Canonical IGG Rush™ buying Duchies?  They are going to snag Provinces to make it super hard to overhaul them.

Obviously this depends on a lot of things. Usually getting Provinces while going for IGGs is really good, but this example was meant to show that if IGG is just ending the game as fast as possible, it still takes forever when uncontested. I'm trying to disprove the myth that the IGG rush is fast.

2) it's easy to execute, and small deviations from the canonical strategy do not significantly affect win percentages


I don't think that's true, unless you're restricting that to non-IGG kingdom cards.  I think the player that understands IGG rush better can get some really great winrate improvements by timing their switch from IGG over to Duchy better, and I think the temptation to beat the weaker player that way rather than beat the weaker player by pulling off the board's engine contributes to the perception that it's always the only answer.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #136 on: August 23, 2016, 11:00:53 pm »
+1

Reviving this thread for empires.

To me it seems like
A = Always consider
B = Depends on the Board
C = Situational, like specific Combos

Of course it may not be worth putting them on a hierarchy. It's hard to say whether "may as well" cards (like Vagrant and Pearl Diver) are better or worse than situationally strong but often useless cards.
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filovirus

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Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« Reply #137 on: September 13, 2017, 06:43:48 pm »
0

Reviving this thread for empires.

To me it seems like
A = Always consider
B = Depends on the Board
C = Situational, like specific Combos

Of course it may not be worth putting them on a hierarchy. It's hard to say whether "may as well" cards (like Vagrant and Pearl Diver) are better or worse than situationally strong but often useless cards.

I wish the OP put in an "S" tier. Cards that will always be "A" tier no matter what and will never hurt the deck. I am not familiar with all the cards throughout all the expansions, but cards like Chapel or Fishing Village would probably fall into this category.
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