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Author Topic: some medieval themed-cards  (Read 6304 times)

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bobanillic

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some medieval themed-cards
« on: August 29, 2015, 07:09:04 am »
+2

Hello guys. My name is Boban, I am new to this board and would like to present my cards with a medieval theme and attack-defense mechanics. I hope to be able to balance them with your help such that they become playable.




A straightforward duration village with attack and defense. For pricing I took Port as a benchmark. First I wanted to put the attack effect in the second turn for thematic reasons (first you sit behind your walls and defend your castle, then you ride out) but realized that this would be incredibly messy as you'd have to remember the defense effects of Moat, Lighthouse and Castle.




This is still in flux. I think that the discard-defense ability of Dark Sorceress might become more valuable if the card was terminal and I am also not sure about whether discarding a Curse should remain in there. I put it in to nerf the card but it somehow feels strange.




This is a Crossroads variant and started out as cantrip but of course it would have been far too strong and most likely an automatic buy during the first two moves in many non-Shelter games. +1 Action wasn't necessary as you only play the card if you are able to use it and thus gain extra actions so I chose +1 card. I still fear that it might be too strong in the beginning as it can serve as a Peddler or Lab (or a supercard with two Estates).
If you guys think that it is too strong there are two ways to nerf it. First, discard the Victory cards to prevent a second Knight from using them, second, draw the card afterwards or third, make it +1$.




Picture and name are inspired by Co0kieL0rd. I wanted two cards that use Ruins and Spoils and first used Castle as a Ruins junker but this was too strong, not to mention that cantrip junkers are problematic issue I wanted to stay away from.
Now it is basically a split up Marauder which gives you the choice of playing constructively or destructively. About the Spoils part, just gaining a Spoils would have been too weak, top-decking it would have been too strong so I came up with shuffling it into your deck. Not totally sure about it as it is the only card I know which uses this mechanic and on a practical level it increases the shuffling frequency which is something not everybody might be comfortable with.




Obviously inspired by Possession but not nearly as interesting and complex. Its effect is far stronger but you can defend against it and you gotta discard your hand. So you might get 1-3 Provinces from the other players but you have to give up buying a card yourself unless you create money via your engine. In Colony games it might be more painful as getting together 11 without Platinum is difficult.
I am not sure about the right price, P 5-7 seems like the appropriate range, I am not sure about the game-delaying effects and I am not sure about whether it is too much of an automatic buy (even if you basically wanna play without them, you might just want one for the defensive ability).
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GeeJo

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 09:35:09 am »
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Some comments:

Castle needs a second dividing line between the what happens this turn and what happens next turn, as they happen at different times.

I've never really been convinced that there's all that much practical difference between P and 1P. But Dark Sorceress seems pretty balanced on the face of it.

$3 Lab seems powerful even when it doesn't always hit, especially since this quickly becomes an absolutely monster stackable super-lab when you have two or more victory cards (which it helps you draw). I'd pick the other half of the cantrip and make it give just +1 action by default, meaning 1 Estate turns it into a Village/Peddler rather than a Lab (though you'd need to add Trusty Steed's rider that the choices must be different, or you end up with the same situation). Or up the cost to $4 and start from there.

Robber Knight needs to specify that it trashes an action card *from their hand*. I like how the attack portion is inherently self-limiting, as sooner or later they'll just be swapping Ruins for other Ruins, especially in multiplayer. I think as a general rule I'd generally prefer to pick up a Marauder, but there are definitely boards where Robber Knight would be better. As a side-note, Inn and Herald kind of do the shuffle-into-deck thing, though as an on-buy rather than on-ply effect, so it's still novel.

Wizard is just too swingy. A single play can win you the entire game in four-player. I can't think of any other single card where that would happen as often as it would with this. It also incentivises games that never end, as if you're behind on provinces you're better off stealing stuff rather than buying things, so no progress is made. I'd drop the price and stop it from taking victory cards. At that point it no longer really needs the reaction part to balance it, though I'm neutral on the idea of dropping it.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 09:54:40 am by GeeJo »
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Awaclus

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 10:23:30 am »
+3

Castle needs a second dividing line between the what happens this turn and what happens next turn, as they happen at different times.

Actually, it shouldn't have it. The "at the start of your next turn:" happens as a part of the card's on-play effect.
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Gubump

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 10:37:47 am »
+3

Some comments:

Castle needs a second dividing line between the what happens this turn and what happens next turn, as they happen at different times.

Um, no it doesn't. Literally none of the official Duration cards do that.
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Asper

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2015, 05:19:52 am »
+1

Some comments:

Castle needs a second dividing line between the what happens this turn and what happens next turn, as they happen at different times.

Um, no it doesn't. Literally none of the official Duration cards do that.

The german localisation added such lines. It was only through this forum that i realized it's different (and more consequent, rules-wise) with the original cards.

Also, i think Robber Knight would be better the more it was like Torturer: Either discard an action or gain a Ruins. Mandatory trashing is crazy. At the latest when Ruins are out it's going to be a pain.

Castle seems ta bit strong to me, but not sure. Probably okay, though i think it does a lot at once.
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bobanillic

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2015, 07:25:52 am »
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$3 Lab seems powerful even when it doesn't always hit, especially since this quickly becomes an absolutely monster stackable super-lab when you have two or more victory cards (which it helps you draw). I'd pick the other half of the cantrip and make it give just +1 action by default, meaning 1 Estate turns it into a Village/Peddler rather than a Lab (though you'd need to add Trusty Steed's rider that the choices must be different, or you end up with the same situation). Or up the cost to $4 and start from there.
I wanted the card to be flexible such that you can pick two identical choices and make it a Village, Peddler, Smithy, Lab, terminal Silver that draws a card or whatever.
Do you think that the card would still be too strong if I changed it into: "Discard any number of Victory cards. For each discarded Victory card, choose two:" ?


Quote
Wizard is just too swingy. A single play can win you the entire game in four-player. I can't think of any other single card where that would happen as often as it would with this. It also incentivises games that never end, as if you're behind on provinces you're better off stealing stuff rather than buying things, so no progress is made. I'd drop the price and stop it from taking victory cards. At that point it no longer really needs the reaction part to balance it, though I'm neutral on the idea of dropping it.
Thanks, I will change it.
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bobanillic

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2015, 07:31:20 am »
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Also, i think Robber Knight would be better the more it was like Torturer: Either discard an action or gain a Ruins. Mandatory trashing is crazy. At the latest when Ruins are out it's going to be a pain.
I thought that in the beginning you'd only trash weak action cards and in the middle game you'd sometimes trash a Ruins and as GeeJo has pointed out, in multiplayer a second attack does nothing as you'd trash a Ruins and gain a new one.

I can see though that a trashing attack can be strong in some decks but I think that "either discard an action or gain a Ruins" would be too weak. How about "discard an Action card, gain a Ruins and put it into your hand"? It makes the attack stronger in some way as you can now get multiple Ruins between two of your moves but it also makes it weaker as you do not have to trash good Action cards.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 07:32:25 am by bobanillic »
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Asper

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 08:33:47 am »
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Also, i think Robber Knight would be better the more it was like Torturer: Either discard an action or gain a Ruins. Mandatory trashing is crazy. At the latest when Ruins are out it's going to be a pain.
I thought that in the beginning you'd only trash weak action cards and in the middle game you'd sometimes trash a Ruins and as GeeJo has pointed out, in multiplayer a second attack does nothing as you'd trash a Ruins and gain a new one.

I can see though that a trashing attack can be strong in some decks but I think that "either discard an action or gain a Ruins" would be too weak. How about "discard an Action card, gain a Ruins and put it into your hand"? It makes the attack stronger in some way as you can now get multiple Ruins between two of your moves but it also makes it weaker as you do not have to trash good Action cards.

Discard an action card is a very brutal attack. Arguably worse than Militia. Giving out Ruins makes that part a teensy bit less harsh, but is a harsh attack in itself. Also, the best defense against this and the original seems to be a money-centered strategy. Like the previous version, this becomes more harsh when Ruins are gone. Playing a few of these a turn will basically lock my opponent out of playing action cards, and force him to play pure Big Money. *shudder*
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Asper

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2015, 08:47:36 am »
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Oh, and i'm surprised nobody critizised how extremely political Wizard is. I mean, worse-than-Catan political.

Edit: Sorry, i feel i'm being a bit overly cyncial in these posts. No harm intended.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 01:02:37 pm by Asper »
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GendoIkari

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 01:51:36 pm »
+2

Oh, and i'm surprised nobody critizised how extremely political Wizard is. I mean, worse-than-Catan political.

Edit: Sorry, i feel i'm being a bit overly cyncial in these posts. No harm intended.

While it's possible to play politically with Wizard, it doesn't force any political decisions, and using the card the best you can shouldn't be political. You'll take the best card you can from each deck. If it made you choose just 1 card total, that would be political. But you're stealing a card from each player. Basically it's just the same as Thief... Thief could be political; if both opponent's reveal Copper-Gold, you could trash Gold from one player and Copper from the other. But you can just trash Gold from both; so no issue.
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Asper

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 02:00:12 pm »
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Oh, and i'm surprised nobody critizised how extremely political Wizard is. I mean, worse-than-Catan political.

Edit: Sorry, i feel i'm being a bit overly cyncial in these posts. No harm intended.

While it's possible to play politically with Wizard, it doesn't force any political decisions, and using the card the best you can shouldn't be political. You'll take the best card you can from each deck. If it made you choose just 1 card total, that would be political. But you're stealing a card from each player. Basically it's just the same as Thief... Thief could be political; if both opponent's reveal Copper-Gold, you could trash Gold from one player and Copper from the other. But you can just trash Gold from both; so no issue.

Oops, i actually thought you could just steal 1 card. Thanks for pointing out that it doesn't. Of course my point is nonsense, then.
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bobanillic

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 03:04:00 pm »
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Also, i think Robber Knight would be better the more it was like Torturer: Either discard an action or gain a Ruins. Mandatory trashing is crazy. At the latest when Ruins are out it's going to be a pain.
I thought that in the beginning you'd only trash weak action cards and in the middle game you'd sometimes trash a Ruins and as GeeJo has pointed out, in multiplayer a second attack does nothing as you'd trash a Ruins and gain a new one.

I can see though that a trashing attack can be strong in some decks but I think that "either discard an action or gain a Ruins" would be too weak. How about "discard an Action card, gain a Ruins and put it into your hand"? It makes the attack stronger in some way as you can now get multiple Ruins between two of your moves but it also makes it weaker as you do not have to trash good Action cards.

Discard an action card is a very brutal attack. Arguably worse than Militia. Giving out Ruins makes that part a teensy bit less harsh, but is a harsh attack in itself. Also, the best defense against this and the original seems to be a money-centered strategy. Like the previous version, this becomes more harsh when Ruins are gone. Playing a few of these a turn will basically lock my opponent out of playing action cards, and force him to play pure Big Money. *shudder*
Sure, once the Ruins run out multiple attacks between two of your moves are not mitigated via trashing/discarding the very Ruins you just got into your hand.
So the attack should be weaker. Is another way to balance the card makeing the constructive part of it stronger? My goal is obviously to give players tricky decisions, not to make them always play the Ruins instead of the Spoils part. But then again I thought that topdecking a Spoils would be too strong.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2015, 08:59:57 pm »
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The way I read Knight of the Shire, I assumed the choices had to be different, even if you had more than one victory card in hand. So at most you would get +2 Cards, +1 Action, +1 Buy, +$1.
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Seprix

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2015, 10:16:21 pm »
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I really like Castle. It's cute. Dark Sorceress is decently good, a solid curser I think, but not worth using in most games where trashing + engine can be incorporated for sure. Knight of the Shire is brokenly overpowered and lets you green earlier without too much consequence. It needs to cost at least $, mainly because it just gives you so many options for play. You can trigger it to get a Lab draw at $?! Ludicrous! You can get +buy, absolutely insane, coin, draw, action, etc. All you need is a Victory Card in hand. Yeah, it needs to cost $5, and then it's fine.

Robber Knight seems like an annoying attack to deal with. Bleah. I think it could be included in though, but I think it might be a tad bit too strong at $4. I think I'd make it produce +$ and cost it at $5. I mean, it can either attack your opponent (combos with discard attacks!!!) or become an essential Chancellor while giving economy. I think the options it brings to the table necessitate a $5 cost.

Wizard should never exist.

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XerxesPraelor

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2015, 08:17:18 pm »
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2 crossroads with 1 victory card is not worth a lost city, as each takes up a card space in your hand, while Lost City only takes up 1 space.

Knight of the Crossroads would probably be fine at 4 though now.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 08:19:23 pm by XerxesPraelor »
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gkrieg13

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2015, 10:34:53 pm »
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Now it is not possible anymore to use a Victory card for several Knights like Crossroads (let's keep in mind that playing two Crossroads on just one Victory card are equivalent to a Lost City).





Not happy yet with Robber Knight as I have a hard time to evaluate the relative strengths of the Ruins and Spoils part.





Wizard might be a bit weak now but I wanna keep the "discard your hand" part to give the player an actual decision. I am also not sure about topdecking the gained cards as I put it initially only in to punish the player for stealing Victory cards but I think it has to stay in to compensate for "discard your hand".

Are you the original poster?
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Asper

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Re: some medieval themed-cards
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2015, 06:44:00 am »
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Oh my... I think i know what's going on here. I'll just claim nothing is.

I think the strength of Robber Knights options depends on your opponent. If he does Big Money, the attack is awfully weak and Robber Knight isn't a star, either. If he doesn't, the attack is rage-quit-inducingly rude. Personally, i wouldn't want to play with it. It's a cheap, reusable pseudo-Pillage that junks. The Spoils option is a choice i'd take only after the first play, when subsequent attacks don't hit as hard anymore. OR i'll just spam it as fast as i can to make sure it becomes just "he discards an action card". The nasty thing is that my Robber Knighg can keep you from playing yours. Long story short, i'll advise once again against "discard an action card" as an unconditioned, mandatory attack effect. It makes the game less fun. Pillage is a one-shot for reasons, you see.
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