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[DavidTheDavid]

For me, the animations aren't an issue , though as my Alchemy campaign battles stacked up with curses, cards to trash the curses, Golems to bypass the curses, cards to draw cards, and so on and so forth, I can see how someone who is happy to scan the log for results might like play sans animations and just nigh instant results, so in the vein of keeping the game appealing to all players and that some players (most likely expert players, I'd wager) dislike the animations, what solutions might there be? I mean, beyond the obvious "turn off animations." Keep in mind that the goal right now, as Jeff explained in our announcements section, is feature parity with 1.0, so any new features such as we might generate are down the road. He really has kept the door open to future ideas and features fwiw.

Good God, man! Remove the delay between the animations! REMOVE THE DELAY BETWEEN THE ANIMATIONS! I guarantee that it would solve all these problems. If you'd just REMOVE THE DELAY BETWEEN THE ANIMATIONS, the fastest setting will be fast enough for experts. The delay between animations isn't helping new players, either! Removing them will make the experience better for everybody!

The 1.0 version doesn't have delays between animations. If you're priority is feature parity with 1.0, YOU NEED TO REMOVE THE DELAY BETWEEN ANIMATIONS!

I'm not sure I understand. 

I can ask them to look at that. Perhaps it's a limitation of Unity, or perhaps not. Don't really know, but sure, I'll raise the topic.

[LastFootnote]

For me, the animations aren't an issue , though as my Alchemy campaign battles stacked up with curses, cards to trash the curses, Golems to bypass the curses, cards to draw cards, and so on and so forth, I can see how someone who is happy to scan the log for results might like play sans animations and just nigh instant results, so in the vein of keeping the game appealing to all players and that some players (most likely expert players, I'd wager) dislike the animations, what solutions might there be? I mean, beyond the obvious "turn off animations." Keep in mind that the goal right now, as Jeff explained in our announcements section, is feature parity with 1.0, so any new features such as we might generate are down the road. He really has kept the door open to future ideas and features fwiw.

Good God, man! Remove the delay between the animations! REMOVE THE DELAY BETWEEN THE ANIMATIONS! I guarantee that it would solve all these problems. If you'd just REMOVE THE DELAY BETWEEN THE ANIMATIONS, the fastest setting will be fast enough for experts. The delay between animations isn't helping new players, either! Removing them will make the experience better for everybody!

The 1.0 version doesn't have delays between animations. If you're priority is feature parity with 1.0, YOU NEED TO REMOVE THE DELAY BETWEEN ANIMATIONS!

I'm not sure I understand. 

I can ask them to look at that. Perhaps it's a limitation of Unity, or perhaps not. Don't really know, but sure, I'll raise the topic.

I appreciate it!

[liopoil]

For me, the animations aren't an issue , though as my Alchemy campaign battles stacked up with curses, cards to trash the curses, Golems to bypass the curses, cards to draw cards, and so on and so forth, I can see how someone who is happy to scan the log for results might like play sans animations and just nigh instant results, so in the vein of keeping the game appealing to all players and that some players (most likely expert players, I'd wager) dislike the animations, what solutions might there be? I mean, beyond the obvious "turn off animations." Keep in mind that the goal right now, as Jeff explained in our announcements section, is feature parity with 1.0, so any new features such as we might generate are down the road. He really has kept the door open to future ideas and features fwiw.

Good God, man! Remove the delay between the animations! REMOVE THE DELAY BETWEEN THE ANIMATIONS! I guarantee that it would solve all these problems. If you'd just REMOVE THE DELAY BETWEEN THE ANIMATIONS, the fastest setting will be fast enough for experts. The delay between animations isn't helping new players, either! Removing them will make the experience better for everybody!

The 1.0 version doesn't have delays between animations. If you're priority is feature parity with 1.0, YOU NEED TO REMOVE THE DELAY BETWEEN ANIMATIONS!

I'm not sure I understand. 

I can ask them to look at that. Perhaps it's a limitation of Unity, or perhaps not. Don't really know, but sure, I'll raise the topic.

What. No. No no no. This has nothing to do with Unity. I don't... what. When you play a card. There's an animation. Then there's another animation. There is time between those animations. Why.

No need for an 'expert' mode or anything like that. Most people won't want ALL those things. Just options! How hard can it possibly be to put in a button to turn off animations? Or if the delay is somebody's only problem, a button to turn off that! I can't imagine even people just starting out want delay between animations, so you could just remove that entirely too. Reactions, stacking, harder AI, those are all nice things, but none come even close to the importance of fixing the animations, and they are much harder to implement too. IMO, this should be the #1 priority now, since improves the experience tremendously for many people with not much work put into it, though I could be wrong on the last point.

We're not attacking you; nobody is, we understand you didn't make it the way it is. We just can't tell that our point is getting through to you and then through to the people who did make it. You keep bringing up how the animations can be nice. I'm sure they are for you, and nobody is threatening that. We don't want to remove the animations for everyone. This is the only post you really need to read:

We've played this product for a long time and it's clear that an extremely significant portion of your customers do not like the animations. We are not asking anyone else to change how they play the game, or even for you to get rid of animations for everybody. Just a button in the settings which turns the animations off entirely.

We are not asking anyone else to change how they play the game, or even for you to get rid of animations for everybody. Just a button in the settings which turns the animations off entirely.

Just a button in the settings which turns the animations off entirely.

Just a button in the settings which turns the animations off entirely.

LastFootnote points out that the delay is the real problem. Maybe it is. But I can also see that maybe getting rid of the delay is harder than an option to remove the animation.

[SCSN]

I want to play without animations entirely, not just without delays.

But for sure introduce various options if people like to customize their experience. As long as there's the option to turn everything off completely I'd be very happy, and couldn't care less about what the other options are.

[Donald X.]

So what would an "Expert Mode" entail? Just brainstorming here:

• animations are off, cards just layer out in sequence
• all reactions are manual (because of oddball circumstances such as Donald X. mentions in this post).
• Or discriminate certain reactions? Or have a first time option to determine all subsequent reactions of a type
• stack multiples always on?
• more difficult campaign builds and/or AI opponents - relevant to just those matches of course

I dunno, what else?

I don't think there's much point to an "expert mode." Certainly it would be a low enough priority to never happen. Stack multiples is already an option, don't mess with that; we don't need more difficult campaigns and if we ever have user-made campaigns then probably someone will make a hard one there you go.

There's no problem having Moat be automatic (via a setting) - it just shouldn't be that Moat is skipped due to logic such as "are the Curses empty." It can be automatic due to logic like "I just always Moat okay." A fine feature for down the road, and I already have a post on the MF forums somewhere discussing that and similar cases where you want card-specific options.

Anyway, "animations are off, cards just layer out in sequence," that's the one to do. I am not really sure what "cards just layer out in sequence" means to you but I am going to guess it means "no watching Hunting Party cards get turned over and similar stuff." A lot of that is "digging" but not all of it, e.g. seeing what the bot picks for Scheme (I do not want to wait to see each Scheme bob up to show me that the bot is Scheming it).

[drsteelhammer]

Choose your own adventure!
1) Reply, "No, you just don't get it!" Proceed to page 134 [I die in a black pit, alone].
2) Reply, "You obviously didn't read what I wrote!" Proceed to page 134 [I die in a black pit, alone].
3) Quote my quoted quotes Inception style. Proceed to page 67, turn to page 178, then 67, repeat. [We make horrible, communal text gif].
4) Forego internet gotcha. [read below]

Sorry, couldn't resist.     

Still forgoing internet gotcha games, I've been thinking about (part of) this thread as I've been working through the Alchemy campaign.

For me, the animations aren't an issue , though as my Alchemy campaign battles stacked up with curses, cards to trash the curses, Golems to bypass the curses, cards to draw cards, and so on and so forth, I can see how someone who is happy to scan the log for results might like play sans animations and just nigh instant results, so in the vein of keeping the game appealing to all players and that some players (most likely expert players, I'd wager) dislike the animations, what solutions might there be? I mean, beyond the obvious "turn off animations." Keep in mind that the goal right now, as Jeff explained in our announcements section, is feature parity with 1.0, so any new features such as we might generate are down the road. He really has kept the door open to future ideas and features fwiw.

So what would an "Expert Mode" entail? Just brainstorming here:

• animations are off, cards just layer out in sequence
• all reactions are manual (because of oddball circumstances such as Donald X. mentions in this post).
• Or discriminate certain reactions? Or have a first time option to determine all subsequent reactions of a type
• stack multiples always on?
• more difficult campaign builds and/or AI opponents - relevant to just those matches of course

I dunno, what else?

I remember when Memoir '44 came out online. I haven't played it in a long time, but expert mode was "computer handles nothing, players do it all." That seems extreme and neglects the benefit of the server avoiding human errors. But there's an idea fwiw.

Please don't focus on a good AI for the "experts". I think I can speak for most people who are quite dedicated to the game that we rather play some proper pvp games. I don't really see the need to waste rescources on that project that can be very well used differently.

Animations and card stacking are useful, but I think toggling them seperately works good enough. Personally I would be fine with very fast animations aswell instead of none, but having options here should definitely be the top priority.

Considering reactions, it is really important that I can play them manually against attacks like minion for example. An option to "always reveal moat" might be neat in some games, but I rather have lots of other stuff before that.

[DavidTheDavid]

By better AI, I just mean using something like Warlord Bot instead of Serf Bot.

So I think three things concerning animations, yes?
First, by animations, we agree that this includes treasure, actions, buys, and curses? Any sfx other than glowing borders?

Then:
1. remove/reduce delay between animations
2. option to disable animations
3. remove animations that don't communicate information, which Donald X. has commented on elsewhere a few times

Is that accurate?

[Awaclus]

For 1, I think any artificial delay just needs to be removed entirely. If there's some delay because the client is sending or receiving data from the server, then obviously that can't be removed.

Other than that, that looks pretty accurate.

[microman]

That sounds great!  But why is it that it has taken this long for David the David to understand what We all want for a better Dominion experience?  I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but this just seems like it has taken a little longer(a lot) than its needed to.  Can we please get something close to what we are asking so we can get the Adventures expansion soon?  Thank you

[Chris is me]

That sounds great!  But why is it that it has taken this long for David the David to understand what We all want for a better Dominion experience?  I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but this just seems like it has taken a little longer(a lot) than its needed to.  Can we please get something close to what we are asking so we can get the Adventures expansion soon?  Thank you

Because two dozen different people are shouting slightly different variants of the same thing at him at once, and MF has made him responsible for juggling all of these nuanced complaints and communicating them to the developers with enough of a sense of urgency that the issues get addressed. You have to admit it's not an easy job.

David: Would it be helpful if people compiled video clips, etc. showing the delay in question? Highlighting the pauses that shouldn't be there? I figure if people need time between animations to digest things, they'll just make the animations longer.

[DavidTheDavid]

That sounds great!  But why is it that it has taken this long for David the David to understand what We all want for a better Dominion experience?  I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but this just seems like it has taken a little longer(a lot) than its needed to.  Can we please get something close to what we are asking so we can get the Adventures expansion soon?  Thank you

Because two dozen different people are shouting slightly different variants of the same thing at him at once, and MF has made him responsible for juggling all of these nuanced complaints and communicating them to the developers with enough of a sense of urgency that the issues get addressed. You have to admit it's not an easy job.

David: Would it be helpful if people compiled video clips, etc. showing the delay in question? Highlighting the pauses that shouldn't be there? I figure if people need time between animations to digest things, they'll just make the animations longer.

It certainly wouldn't hurt. Probably brief clips to demonstrate it would be the most digestible. I wouldn't ask anyone to spend time splicing and editing, but maybe a 1 or 2 minute clip with "See animations starting at :20 and 1:15 and 1:47" that kind of thing? Would that work and be simple for people?

[yed]

Video with comparison of Hunting Party on fastest speed on 1.0 and 2.0 would also be nice. If some of you guys have a lot of time...

That would demonstrate where is the problem quite well.

[-Stef-]

Video with comparison of Hunting Party on fastest speed on 1.0 and 2.0 would also be nice. If some of you guys have a lot of time...

That would demonstrate where is the problem quite well.

Some advice: don't put too much time in it. If someone isn't smart enough to figure out the problem with hunting party in 2.0 all by himself, rest assured that person won't be able to code the fix either.

[sudgy]

Another thing that you could show is buying a bunch of coppers.  In the old version I could just spamclick the button, but here it messes up because of the animations.

[werothegreat]

Another thing that you could show is buying a bunch of coppers.  In the old version I could just spamclick the button, but here it messes up because of the animations.

In general:

An animation resolving should not prevent me from doing something else.

[LastFootnote]

Another thing that you could show is buying a bunch of coppers.  In the old version I could just spamclick the button, but here it messes up because of the animations.

In general:

An animation resolving should not prevent me from doing something else.

I disagree. Any card-moving animation should keep you from doing things until it's done. For instance, Mine gains a card into your hand. Any reasonable implementation is going to make you wait until that finishes before letting you interact with your hand.

Sparkly, glowing balls that fly to the Action, Buy, etc. counters and the piles don't need to block input, but card movement absolutely does.

[Seprix]

Another thing that you could show is buying a bunch of coppers.  In the old version I could just spamclick the button, but here it messes up because of the animations.

In general:

An animation resolving should not prevent me from doing something else.

Nah. As LF said, you should wait. It should be quick though.

[AdamH]

You know I was actually halfway through making the video that people wanted to see here when I saw a bunch of big text again. This conversation has basically lost any sense of being constructive. As a community, we've done a really, really awful job of explaining what we want and it's doing more harm than good. Like, David is the only one here who is trying to get something out of this anymore and we aren't helping.

That said, MF decided to push this into public beta when this exact complaint was on the table and they didn't understand what it was. I suppose this is what they should have expected. In spite of that, if I was MF I wouldn't want to listen to us because even though we're actually right about this being an issue, we're doing such a bad job of explaining it, despite the fact that this is how MF-me had decided I wanted to receive feedback. We aren't doing a good job of talking and they aren't doing a good job of listening. No wonder we can't communicate!

It's really frustrating that I was making a video that would try and be constructive and show exactly what the animation delay is so they know what to fix, but honestly I'm feeling really self-conscious about posting it. I feel like I can accurately describe what's happening, but I'm going to get corrected and edge-cased by a bunch of people on here who want slightly different things than me or think that they can say it in a slightly different way that picks up on some nuance that I missed; and since their text is larger than my video thumbnail, what I'm putting work into is going to be drowned out by people yelling at the top of their lungs. That's something children do, and people don't listen to children when they do that.

Realistically, I'll wake up tomorrow morning and finish the editing/voice over I was going to make because I've already captured everything I want to show and I don't want to say I wasted my time, but right now I'm going to bed because I'm frustrated enough that my voice over might come across as flippant instead of constructive, which is the opposite of what I want to happen.

If it was up to me, this thread would be locked and this thing would still be in closed beta. Also, I would be asleep. Hey, I can actually do something about that last one!

[SCSN]

Had the soft-spoken voice of constructive politeness been in any way effective over the course of the last 4-5 months, people would never have felt the need to start shouting.

It remains to be seen whether anything is actually going to change, but this thread as a whole is the single most promising thing thus far when it comes to conveying the widely-felt urgency of the issue and motivating MF to action.

As much as I'd love to always play a marvelously smooth engine that neatly works out, sometimes you just have to hold your nose and dive into the stinking ugliness of IGG and Swindler.* If you want to win, that is.

*This sentence was designed to maximally rile up Mic: he loves those cards and loathes analogies.

Realistically, I'll wake up tomorrow morning and finish the editing/voice over I was going to make because I've already captured everything I want to show and I don't want to say I wasted my time, but right now I'm going to bed because I'm frustrated enough that my voice over might come across as flippant instead of constructive, which is the opposite of what I want to happen.

Just post the video. Things can't possibly get worse and you might even assist in making them better!

[-Stef-]

Had the soft-spoken voice of constructive politeness been in any way effective over the course of the last 4-5 months, people would never have felt the need to start shouting.

This.

I really tried to give them another chance. I was their most active tester in their so called private beta, describing all the bugs I could find, making the screenshots, whatevs. But I'm not going to remain gekke Henkie.

Personally I don't like to shout, but I do get rather silent and/or sad about this whole new version that desperately tries to copy the previous one.

[Donald X.]

Realistically, I'll wake up tomorrow morning and finish the editing/voice over I was going to make because I've already captured everything I want to show and I don't want to say I wasted my time, but right now I'm going to bed because I'm frustrated enough that my voice over might come across as flippant instead of constructive, which is the opposite of what I want to happen.

Obv. you can send it directly to them, or send it to me and I can send it to them.

[AdamH]

Had the soft-spoken voice of constructive politeness been in any way effective over the course of the last 4-5 months, people would never have felt the need to start shouting.

This.

But I don't understand why mature adults would think that yelling will work when other things haven't. Yelling will only make him want to listen less. I'm really frustrated too but increasing the font size never entered my list of things that would help.

Anyways, I'm rested and I feel much better now. I'll finish the video, but I don't really see much of a reason to post it here. I'll PM both David and DXV with links to it when I'm done.

Maybe I could be convinced to post a link to it here but I was never going to keep it up any longer than I had to anyways, and I was never going to make the video public on my channel.

[AdamH]

Anyways, I've finished the video, the PM went through to DXV but David has PMs disabled. I'll see if I can find him on the MF forums, but if there's some other way to get the link there that I need to do, please let me know.

[yed]

Anyways, I've finished the video, the PM went through to DXV but David has PMs disabled. I'll see if I can find him on the MF forums, but if there's some other way to get the link there that I need to do, please let me know.

PM David on MF forum.

[AdamH]

Anyways, I've finished the video, the PM went through to DXV but David has PMs disabled. I'll see if I can find him on the MF forums, but if there's some other way to get the link there that I need to do, please let me know.

PM David on MF forum.

Yes, I've done this.