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JacquesTheBard

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Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« on: August 08, 2015, 02:04:15 pm »
+4

Dominion: Fealty was something of a bust, but I have come up with some great ideas since then. I am aware of inadequacies in the format relative to official cards, and am prepared to accept criticism. Hopefully a few cards survive. My attempt was to go with a sort of "treasure chest expansion" model, which is why you will find smatterings of mechanics from different expansions. I suspect I have a lot of corrections to make.

Here are the cards as they currently stand:

Alloy: $4P Treasure

When you play this card, put a treasure card in your hand on the Tavern mat. Alloy produces $ and P equal to the total output of the treasures on the Tavern mat.

Appraisor: $4 Action-Reaction

+1 buy, +$ equal to half that produced by the player to your right on the previous turn (rounded down)
When another player trashes a card, you may reveal and discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card.

Astronomer: $3P Action
+1 Card, +1 Action. Place your +1 card, +1 action, +1$ or +1 buy token on Astronomer.

Chosen One: $7 Action
Name a card type. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal three of that type. Put them into your hand and discard the rest.

Crop Rotation: $5 Action
Set aside a single copy of each differently named card in your hand. Draw until you have 5 cards in your hand, and return the set aside cards to your hand.

Dwarf: $5 Action
Discard any number of cards from your hand. Draw cards equal to the number you discarded + 3.

Engineers: $4 Action
+2 Actions. Flip your journey token. If your journey token is face-up, gain a card costing up to $5 and put it in your hand

Excommunication: $3 Action-Attack
+1 Action, +1$. Each other player gains a curse. Each other player may trash a card in their hand.
If there are more cards in the trash than in the supply, trash this and gain an Interdict

Interdict: $0* Action-Attack
+1 Action, +2$. Each other player gains a curse from the trash

Heir: $2 Action-Traveler
You may discard an estate. If you do, +$2.
When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a Profligate

Profligate: $3* Action-Traveler
Choose one: +3 cards and take your -$1 token, or +3$ and take your -1 Card token
When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a Debtor

Debtor: $4* Action-Traveler
Put this on your Tavern Mat
If you have $5 unspent at the end of your turn, call this. You may take an additional turn. If you do not, exchange this for an Innovator

Innovator: $5* Action-Traveler
+3 Cards, +1 Action, every other player gains a card costing up to $4
When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a Genius

Genius: $6* Action
Choose a Kingdom card that is not in the Supply. You may treat that card as if it were in the Supply.

Help: $2 Action
+1$, Trash a card from your hand. You may discard a card from your hand to play this again.

Jeweler: $6 Action
+2$, Trash any number of treasures in your hand. Gain up to three treasures with a total $ output equal to that of the trashed treasures.

Salary: $5 Treasure
+1$, +1 Buy. You may forfeit any number of +Buy. +1$ per Buy forfeited.

Surplus: $2 Action
+1 Buy. Name three cards in the supply. The player to your right chooses one. That card costs $3 less this turn.

Tomb: $6+ Victory
You may overpay for this. Take VP tokens equal to half the amount you overpayed, rounded down, and put them on your Tavern mat. This card is worth VP equal to the total VP tokens on your Tavern mat.

Tower: $4 Action-Reaction
Flip your journey token. If face-down, trash a card from your hand. If face-up, +3 cards and trash any number of cards from your hand.
When another player plays an attack, you may flip your journey token
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 02:19:14 pm by JacquesTheBard »
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2015, 02:11:15 pm »
0

As for my current assessment of card quality, here is how I would rate them. I would appreciate fabricate on all, including the ones that I am already proud of. Even great cards can be made better.

Alloy: 3/10
Appraiser: 5/10
Astronomer: 4/10
Chosen One: 6/10
Crop Rotation: 9/10
Dwarf: 7/10
Engineer: 7/10
Excommunication: 6/10
Heir: 8/10
Help: 5/10
Jeweler: 7/10
Salary: 6/10
Surplus: 4/10
Tomb: 8/10
Tower: 6/10

Heir is difficult to break down in terms of balance, but the biggest concerns to me are Debtor, which uses an odd and swingy extra-turn mechanic, and Genius, which has a very fun effect that can nonetheless cause brutal analysis paralysis. Advice on names and theme would be nice as well.
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Asper

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2015, 06:17:17 pm »
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Quick thoughts:
Appraisor should talk about "his" last turn. Otherwise it interacts weirdly with Outpost.

I like the idea behind Crop Rotation, but i think the wording can be improved: "Set aside any number of differently named cards from your hand. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand. Return the set-aside cards to your hand."
About strength, it draws at least two and at most 5 cards when played from a standard five card hand. Probably is a fine price point. It's a shame that it doesn't stack very well (in most decks), but Library has the same problem.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2015, 12:58:45 am »
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I like a lot of the ideas here.  I'm not sure how some of them will play out.

Alloy is a pretty cool idea, but it might end up being terribroken.  $4P is really expensive, so you really have to be committed to go for it.  But the times when you do want it (Platinum or maybe other strong treasures) it might go crazy.  Does something weird happen with Bank?  Or what about other copies of Alloy?  Also it has a weird interaction with Miser.  But it's a pretty cool idea, it'll need testing at least.

I think Appraisor is just way too good when it's good.  If you and your opponent (in a 2P game) both play several Appraisors per turn, the coin you generate grows exponentially.  Actually, it might have the Possession problem of making you want to intentionally hurt yourself to stop your opponent from doing anything.  What I mean by that is, if your opponent plays 3 or more Appraisors per turn consistently, the optimal strategy for you is to not produce any coin (unless you can end the game that turn or very soon with a win).

Astronomer is a pretty cool idea.  I like it a lot except I think it'll be too strong.  I think either you need to reduce the vanilla bonus (maybe just +1 Action), or make the cantrip part an option against the token moving.  Like "Choose one: Move a token to Astronomer, or +1 card, +1 action."

Chosen One doesn't really appeal to me, I think I'm generally not a fan of cards that do stuff with types like that.  It might be okay though.  Something to be aware of is that you can name things like "Reaction", "Knight", "Traveler", "Attack", etc.  I'm not sure if that's intentional or whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, but something to think about at least.

Crop Rotation was from the Cornucopia contest right?  It's clunky but it's a cool unique effect that might be worth it for the clunkiness.

Engineers is cool but I think it's insanely strong.  I think it should cost at least $5, and maybe even $6.  I think all of the existing Journey token cards are terminal, which is why they can get away with being crazy strong on their good turn.  Engineers is spammable, and it even does a pretty nice, useful thing on it's dead turn too, so you don't even feel like there's a big drawback to spamming it.  I understand why it wants to be a village though, which is why I suggest a price increase rather than a nerf to the effect.  Another option might be to make the +2 actions only happen on the token turn, but I think that's still not enough to justify a $4 cost.  It's a really nice idea though, I like the idea of using the journey token to make gaining to hand more reasonable.

Excommunication is probably too strong for $3.  You really have to be careful with both non-terminal cursers, and with $3 cursers, and the trashing might be enough to make up for one of those things, but probably not both.  Swindler replaces Coppers with curses and costs $3, but it's not consistent and it's terminal.  The trashing condition is probably impractical to check in real life, and I think it would also be really rare for that to happen, wouldn't it?  You'd probably need at least 70 cards in the trash?

For the heir line, I'll just comment on Genius, because I think that's the main idea anyway.  It is a really unique effect and it's fun to feel like you have special access to some cards (for some people anyway; Black Market, Tournament, and Knights are often very hated though).  But I think there's too many problems with it to be worth doing.  What if I don't own a particular expansion?  Or what if I do, but I just happen to be "missing" the card you want?  What if you don't know all the cards off the top of your head, so you have to read through every single one to decide which one you want (which is more likely to happen if you're playing with fan cards anyway)?  Even if you do know all the cards, there's just too many options.  I just realized now that Genius isn't a 1-shot, which makes the AP even more problematic.  Also, you would need to be careful with what it means to "treat a card as if it's in the supply".  What if that pile runs out, as the third pile?  The game is over for me, but not for you.  Overall I think there's just too many problems with it for it to really be worth doing.  That being said, I can see the appeal of it for certain kinds of Dominion players, so you may think your group would like it, in which case by all means go for it.

Help is really cool.  Wasn't there a "play this again" card in another thread recently?  Well it's still a cool idea.  I feel like there should be something that breaks it, but I can't think of what.  Tunnel is the only card that reacts to being discarded, so I can't think of how it could be problematic, but it is kind of scary to have +$1 on something that can be played multiple times.

Jeweler again has problems with Bank, and maybe also Potion.

Salary is weird.  I think it might as well be +2 Buys instead of +$1, +1 Buy, because hey maybe that extra buy will come in handy.  But I think it's really weak anyway.

Surplus reminds me of an idea for an event that I posted in another thread that I was really proud of but nobody else liked.  It's a little different, but I really really like it.  It might be too strong for $2.  You'll have to test it on lots of different kinds of boards, because it'll probably play very differently depending on the other cards.

I think the consensus on "overpay for VP" is that it just doesn't work, no matter what formula you use.  Tomb is actually probably even more problematic than most iterations of it, because they grow quadratically.

I like the reaction on Tower.  The top-half is probably fine.  It might not need to do anything when it's face-down.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2015, 11:28:24 am »
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Alloy is just a much, much stronger version of Miser. Of course it costs more so it's not strictly bad. But I think it's probably too similar to Miser and too strong.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2015, 11:36:56 am »
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Did you intend Genius to be "until the end of your turn?" Otherwise, you have to remember all the cards you've geniused throughout the whole game. Plus all the other issues already pointed out. What sort of non-buying interactions were you expecting? Would simply "you may buy a card that's not in the supply" work instead? But even so, it's just an issue of what cards are allowed. If you don't specify, then at the moment I play genius, I can invent a new fan card that costs $0 and gives 1 million VP.
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shmeur

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2015, 01:26:26 pm »
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Dwarf is a cool Cellar/Smithy.  I dig Salary, too, although it should cost $4 or even $3.  Some of the wordings are a bit off (such as Surplus).  Tower's reaction is interesting mechanic as well.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2015, 06:16:58 pm »
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I dig Salary, too, although it should cost $4 or even $3.

The problem with Salary is that it's a Silver+, so it has to cost at least $4 and really should cost at least $5.  So I'd suggest trying to buff the effect rather than lowering the price.
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shmeur

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2015, 07:43:50 pm »
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I dig Salary, too, although it should cost $4 or even $3.

The problem with Salary is that it's a Silver+, so it has to cost at least $4 and really should cost at least $5.  So I'd suggest trying to buff the effect rather than lowering the price.
So is Chancellor though.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2015, 07:58:01 pm »
+2

I dig Salary, too, although it should cost $4 or even $3.

The problem with Salary is that it's a Silver+, so it has to cost at least $4 and really should cost at least $5.  So I'd suggest trying to buff the effect rather than lowering the price.
So is Chancellor though.

No, Chancellor (and woodcutter, swindler, and lots of other card said) are terminal actions that give $2. A Silver+ needs to be a treasure card, otherwise being terminal (and an action) makes it weaker than Silver without the other abilities.
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shmeur

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2015, 08:00:55 pm »
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I dig Salary, too, although it should cost $4 or even $3.

The problem with Salary is that it's a Silver+, so it has to cost at least $4 and really should cost at least $5.  So I'd suggest trying to buff the effect rather than lowering the price.
So is Chancellor though.

No, Chancellor (and woodcutter, swindler, and lots of other card said) are terminal actions that give $2. A Silver+ needs to be a treasure card, otherwise being terminal (and an action) makes it weaker than Silver without the other abilities.
I'm just saying Salary being a terminal silver doesn't mean it should cost 4 or 5
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2015, 08:02:52 pm »
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I dig Salary, too, although it should cost $4 or even $3.

The problem with Salary is that it's a Silver+, so it has to cost at least $4 and really should cost at least $5.  So I'd suggest trying to buff the effect rather than lowering the price.
So is Chancellor though.

No, Chancellor (and woodcutter, swindler, and lots of other card said) are terminal actions that give $2. A Silver+ needs to be a treasure card, otherwise being terminal (and an action) makes it weaker than Silver without the other abilities.
I'm just saying Salary being a terminal silver doesn't mean it should cost 4 or 5

Salary is a treasure, so it's strictly better than Silver.  There's a general consensus that Silver+ cards shouldn't cost $4, because they'll be too similar to Silver (which is always available anyway).
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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2015, 08:03:32 pm »
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I dig Salary, too, although it should cost $4 or even $3.

The problem with Salary is that it's a Silver+, so it has to cost at least $4 and really should cost at least $5.  So I'd suggest trying to buff the effect rather than lowering the price.
So is Chancellor though.

No, Chancellor (and woodcutter, swindler, and lots of other card said) are terminal actions that give $2. A Silver+ needs to be a treasure card, otherwise being terminal (and an action) makes it weaker than Silver without the other abilities.
I'm just saying Salary being a terminal silver doesn't mean it should cost 4 or 5

Salary is a treasure, so it's strictly better than Silver.  There's a general consensus that Silver+ cards shouldn't cost $4, because they'll be too similar to Silver (which is always available anyway).
Oh I thought it was an Action.  I misread it.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2015, 06:52:59 pm »
+2

I've done more work on the cards I already posted, and brainstormed a few more. Here they are, with a little commentary from me.

Quote
Reworked cards:

Alloy: $4P Treasure.
Worth $3P.

Somewhat dull, and shares almost nothing with other version, but I enjoy having cards other than Potion that give P.

Quote
Engineers: $2P Action.
+2 Actions, flip your journey token. If it is face-up, gain a card costing up to $5 and put it in your hand.
My first game with Engineer showed it to be very overpowered. One particularly brutal problem was that once a player reached a tipping point, they could use Engineers to gain more Engineers and play them, snatching up most of the pile in one turn. A Potion cost prevents that, and should make them harder to spam. Engineer now costs as much as University, which sounds about right. It doesn’t gain components as quickly, but more than makes up for that by letting you use them immediately.

Quote
Excommunication: $4 Action-Attack.
+1 Action, +1$. Each other player gains a curse. Each other player may trash a card in their hand.
If there are more cards in the trash than in the supply, trash this and gain an Interdict

Interdict: $0* Action-Attack
+1 Action, +2$. Each other player gains a curse from the trash
The only real change here was the price. I might consider moving the cost back to $3 and taking away the action, depending on which version is more fun.

Quote
Help: $2+ Action
+1$. Trash a card from your hand
You may overpay for this. If you do, when you draw your next hand, trash a number of cards equal to the amount you overpayed.

It turns out that the original version of Help, although interesting, had a potential infinite loop problem with a +1 Card token and Fortress. Although I have kept the “card that replays itself” mechanic below, I don’t think Help is the right card for that. I gave it a handsize-reducing but more accurate and affordable version of Doctor’s effect, which should allow it to play a useful role in openings. I don’t know how different it really is from the Doctor effect, though.

New Cards:
Quote
Abbey: $4 Action
+1 Card, +2 Actions
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand

Village with a built-in trashing token. Sounds all right to me! Note that the trashing is mandatory, which could be a problem if you thin quickly and need Abbey as your main village for an engine.

Quote
Apparition: $5 Action-Attack-Duration
+1 Card, +1 Action. Each other player may discard a card costing $0. If they don’t, they gain a Ruins.
On your next turn, all Attack cards cost 2 less
Apparition is a variation on the Cultist/Torturer model of a super-stackable effect. Although an optional Cutpurse certainly isn’t the worst attack on the market, it gets quite vicious when stacked. Note that Ruins themselves can be discard fodder for an Apparition, and that only playing one every other turn should slow it down. However, the discount on the 2nd turn means that picking up more Apparitions is quite doable, and other attacks are always welcome…

Quote
Aquaduct: $5 Action
+2 Cards, +1 Action, +$2. Discard two cards
Originally, this only gave +1$, and was intended to be a sort of Peddler variant. I think the $5 price point deserves something a little nicer. Most vanilla card in the set.

Quote
Highwayman: $5 Action-Attack
+1 Buy. Every other player gains their -1$ token.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a spoils.

It has less in common with Highway than I’d hoped. However, I thought the name went particularly well with the mass Spoils collection. I am still unsure of this card’s overall efficacy. On one hand, high money density means that that extra +buy can pick up better cards. On the other hand, too many spoils could slow your deck to a crawl.

Quote
Indentured Village: $3 Action
+1 Card, +2 Actions. If there are 3 Indentured Villages in play, return them to the Supply and gain 3 Silvers.
Village + cards are typically priced at $4 or higher, and defective Villages are priced at $2. Indentured Village is very nicely on the line between those. Although gaining three Silvers can be very good, the simultaneous loss of three villages will utterly implode any engine that relies too heavily on Indentured Villages. Note that the Villages are returned to the supply, and not simply trashed. This gives you the option of gaining them back. A very strong engine might be able to use the Indentured Village effect to its advantage, gaining large quantities of payload at exactly the right moment. I suspect this will be a high-skill card.

Quote
King in Exile: $3 Action
+1 Card, +1 Action. Gain a Ruin and play it 3 times.

Incredibly swingy, but it seemed like interesting Ruin interaction.

Quote
Laborer: $3 Action
Gain a Silver. You may discard two Coppers. If you do, play this again.

Discarding two cards instead of one does a good deal to prevent the infinite loop from +1 Card tokens. Laborer is a straightforward Silver Flooder, converting copper into still more Silver. I am curious about how it will compare to Masterpiece, but it doesn’t seem to be either obviously better or obviously weaker. I think the replay mechanic works better here than on Help, especially given the fact that many decks don’t want so much Silver.
Quote
Pariah: $4 Action-Reaction
Trash this. Play it as if it were an Action in the Supply costing up to $5.
When a player (including you) trashes a card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card.

I’d been very attached to this reaction after Appraiser kicked the bucket. Pariah is something of a reverse Band of Misfits combined with Feast, which makes it reasonably useful in its own right. The added reaction gives it a flexibility and versatility that should make it appealing on a high number of boards. Note that the trashing comes before the copying, in order to prevent Fortress shenanigans.

Quote
Patron: $4 Action-Duration
Now and at the start of your next turn, choose one: gain a Spoils, take a coin token, or take a VP token.
Straightforward merger of elements from several expansions.

Quote
Plantation: $5 Action
Discard any number of cards from your hand. For each Action you discard, +$2. For each Treasure, take a coin token. For each Victory card, +1 buy.

Not a lot to say about this one. I hope you like it.

Quote
Revolutionary: $3 Action-Reserve
+1 Card, +1 Action. Put this on your Tavern Mat.
When you play a Revolutionary, you may call this from your Tavern Mat. If you do, +1$, and each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card.

“Do you hear the people sing, singing the song of angry men?” I care a good bit about theme when I make these cards, and Revolutionary does a great job in that regard. The Revolutionaries are sent to prison one by one, until they finally escape and seize control of the city. I created this card to round out a few perceived gaps in the set (Reserves, cantrips, $3 costs) and I think it turned out pretty well. I especially like that it’s a Reserve card called by other copies of the same card!

With that, I have some requests on further tinkering. I received feedback on Dominion: Fealty that my cards didn't feel like a cohesive set, which was honestly pretty spot-on. Are there any blind spots in my existing cards? Not enough attacks, not enough $3 costs? If it's meant to be a "treasure trove" expansion of previous mechanics, do I need to fit more in there? What are some design spaces that could use further exploration?

And what do I do with Genius?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 10:45:31 pm by JacquesTheBard »
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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2015, 07:17:59 pm »
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Some remark on Aquaduct: Interestingly, i have a card i have been working on for a while, called Aqueduct (actually i never saw it written Aquaduct), which was a lot worse than yours and still overly good for :

Quote
Aqueduct, Action,
+1 Action
+
Discard a card. If you do: +1 Card

Note that my version discards before drawing and does so with only one card. It still is a buy-less Grand Market early in the game, a card that's so strong that you have to pay without the use of Copper. Your's is just so, so much stronger, and it looks stronger than Grand Market for many applications. You really need to cut this short or cost it at , or probably . Sadly, and like my card, it suffers from being not very interesting, too.

Also, i don't want to be rude, but it would be a lot easier to read your posts if you used some formatting, like this:

(Quote following)



I've done more work on the cards I already posted, and brainstormed a few more. Here they are, with a little commentary from me.

Reworked cards:

Quote
Alloy: $4P Treasure.
Worth $3P.

Somewhat dull, and shares almost nothing with other version, but I enjoy having cards other than Potion that give P.



Quote
Engineers: $2P Action.
+2 Actions, flip your journey token. If it is face-up, gain a card costing up to $5 and put it in your hand.

My first game with Engineer showed it to be very overpowered. One particularly brutal problem was that once a player reached a tipping point, they could use Engineers to gain more Engineers and play them, snatching up most of the pile in one turn. A Potion cost prevents that, and should make them harder to spam. Engineer now costs as much as University, which sounds about right. It doesn’t gain components as quickly, but more than makes up for that by letting you use them immediately.
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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2015, 09:52:25 pm »
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Indentured Village: $3 Action
+1 Card, +2 Actions. If there are 3 Indentured Villages in play, return them to the Supply and gain 3 Silvers.

I think I really like this idea, but I don't think I'd ever buy it over Village.  You mentioned that you might be able to trade them all for Silvers and gain them back all in one go, but almost any time you can do that, you could instead just gain 3 Silvers without doing that.  I think either it needs a bigger vanilla effect (which I get the impression you don't want), a $2 price (which I don't think fixes much), or gain more than 3 Silvers (I think this is the best option).  5 is probably good.  It is pretty interesting with Feodum, as it gets you lots of Silvers, but only if you can manage to set things up right first.


I think Plantation is crazy weak.  Most actions do something better than +$2 (or +$2, +1 action; is that the more appropriate comparison?), so you'd rather not discard them if you have actions leftover.  While it can help in the case of terminal collision, you probably shouldn't be buying another terminal to help dig you out of terminal collision problems.  Discarding treasures is basically like Plaza's option, but paired with other weaker stuff.  I guess it is unlimited, which is kind of nice.  Discarding victory cards is usually automatic but +buy doesn't do that much for you.  Really I think it should give at least +2 cards, and/or maybe cost less.  As it is you might not mind having one in your deck, but I certainly don't think you'd pay $5 for it (and very often I think you'd rather just not have it in your deck).
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: Return of Jacques's Fan Cards
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2015, 10:52:40 pm »
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Asper, thank you for showing me how to format better. Scott, I'm considering giving Plantation a terminal silver effect on top of everything else. +2$, discard everything. It might not be very interesting as a big pile of cash, though, so I might just replace it altogether.

By the way, Salary has been converted into an event, and Appraiser is dead. The concept really grew out of control with 3+ copies, and it was really weak in the opening. In the end, not worth keeping.

I've been thinking about Genius. Would the effect work better if you chose the kingdom cards in advance? Say, each player chooses three Kingdom cards not in the supply, and when they play Genius they add one of those cards to the supply?

If that effect isn't possible, I have some other ideas to play with. Teacher and Champion are a tough act to follow; Genius needs to be outlandishly powerful while still leaving interesting player decisions.
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