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NateDominion

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First game strategies
« on: July 30, 2015, 07:51:36 am »
+1

This is how all first dominion games go when I teach people: They start playing BM pretty early on and win. Then they think BM is the best strategy and play it EVERY GAME. Any good combos/engines for the first game setup that beat BM?
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Awaclus

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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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Burning Skull

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2015, 07:58:25 am »
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Awaclus

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2015, 08:04:49 am »
+5

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/

Yeah, this is quite an old one, but still pretty relevant.

Well, it's not like the first game kingdom has changed a lot since then.
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Burning Skull

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2015, 08:30:16 am »
0

Well, it's not like the first game kingdom has changed a lot since then.

Holy Bible hadn't changed a lot through the centuries (it actually had, but nevermind), though people's attitude and understanding of it always changes from generation to generation ;)

NateDominion

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ancientcampus

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2015, 09:02:12 am »
+2

After that article was written, michealjb made a significantly stronger engine, which was later linked in the article. One of its innovations is to use Mine to improve money-content rather than buying treasure. Cool!

But actually, I *do* want to talk about michaeljb's strategy a bit: I know his Mine added benefit in the simulator, and I know mine's "not all bad", but whenever I was running that engine I found Gold to be better in most situations. Whenever I started 4/3, I quickly found myself able to draw my whole deck by the time I had a market and was ready to pick up a mine. When you can draw your whole deck and play every action, mine adds +$1 cumulatively every turn, while Gold adds a flat +$3 to every turn. It takes mine 5 turns to pass Gold in total money provided (without even considering the cost of an action), and the game was always finished by that point. I was able to handle the extra bloat from gold via careful use of Cellar to discard VP and copper, taking care to avoid a turn with VP and copper on the top of the deck.

(It's possible I had unusual luck the three times I ran it. I rarely got $5 hands - it was mostly $4 hands until it exploded and I drew the deck.)

Thoughts? Taking michaeljb's results into account, what do people think about the value of Mine here?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 12:38:48 pm by ancientcampus »
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Awaclus

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2015, 01:02:03 pm »
0

After that article was written, michealjb made a significantly stronger engine, which was later linked in the article. One of its innovations is to use Mine to improve money-content rather than buying treasure. Cool!

But actually, I *do* want to talk about michaeljb's strategy a bit: I know his Mine added benefit in the simulator, and I know mine's "not all bad", but whenever I was running that engine I found Gold to be better in most situations. Whenever I started 4/3, I quickly found myself able to draw my whole deck by the time I had a market and was ready to pick up a mine. When you can draw your whole deck and play every action, mine adds +$1 cumulatively every turn, while Gold adds a flat +$3 to every turn. It takes mine 5 turns to pass Gold in total money provided (without even considering the cost of an action), and the game was always finished by that point. I was able to handle the extra bloat from gold via careful use of Cellar to discard VP and copper, taking care to avoid a turn with VP and copper on the top of the deck.

(It's possible I had unusual luck the three times I ran it. I rarely got $5 hands - it was mostly $4 hands until it exploded and I drew the deck.)

Thoughts? Taking michaeljb's results into account, what do people think about the value of Mine here?

I think Mine is good here.
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DG

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2015, 01:25:20 pm »
0

Remember that the simulation covers two player games. Multiplayer games have extra considerations.
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Titandrake

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2015, 01:47:57 pm »
0

Also note that Mine lets you have fun Remodel shenanigans on this board. Mine + Remodel + Copper in hand lets you turn a Copper into a $5 cost. Mine + Remodel + Silver lets you turn Silver into Province. It is less money, but I believe you can get Mine early enough to make it worth it. At some point Gold will become better, it all depends on what your deck is like.
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ancientcampus

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2015, 01:37:04 pm »
+2

Remember that the simulation covers two player games. Multiplayer games have extra considerations.
You are, of course, correct. Also, the simulation is optimized against BM variants, not other engines.

Quote
Also note that Mine lets you have fun Remodel shenanigans on this board. Mine + Remodel + Copper in hand lets you turn a Copper into a $5 cost. Mine + Remodel + Silver lets you turn Silver into Province. It is less money, but I believe you can get Mine early enough to make it worth it. At some point Gold will become better, it all depends on what your deck is like.
True. But I'd prefer to remodel gold --> province rather than mine & remodel a copper to a market or duchy. But you're right, the remodel--> draw what you just gained shenanigans are fun on this board.

If you predict there are 5 or more turns left in the game, I agree that Mine is best. I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, but is there reason to buy mine over gold here after turn 10?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 01:41:29 pm by ancientcampus »
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jomini

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2015, 08:31:14 pm »
0

Remember that the simulation covers two player games. Multiplayer games have extra considerations.
You are, of course, correct. Also, the simulation is optimized against BM variants, not other engines.

Quote
Also note that Mine lets you have fun Remodel shenanigans on this board. Mine + Remodel + Copper in hand lets you turn a Copper into a $5 cost. Mine + Remodel + Silver lets you turn Silver into Province. It is less money, but I believe you can get Mine early enough to make it worth it. At some point Gold will become better, it all depends on what your deck is like.
True. But I'd prefer to remodel gold --> province rather than mine & remodel a copper to a market or duchy. But you're right, the remodel--> draw what you just gained shenanigans are fun on this board.

If you predict there are 5 or more turns left in the game, I agree that Mine is best. I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, but is there reason to buy mine over gold here after turn 10?

Mine + Remodel -> +$5 in value per turn. Gold + Remodel is a province exactly once. Additionally, Mine adds its value without increasing your draw burden unlike Gold where okay, you have a spare $3, you buy a silver, now you need another card worth of draw to utilize it. Lastly, Mine can become a Duchy late game for a loss of $1 (at most) of buying power. Downgrading a Gold to a Duchy (say you cannot Remodel to the last province), costs you $3.

Mine/Remodel is extremely good if you have the draw and actions to support it.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2015, 12:28:51 am »
0

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/

Yeah, this is quite an old one, but still pretty relevant.

I just read this article and the comment on it and my big question is, what are the "four pillars" one guy mentioned in the comments? I don't think I've ever heard of that.

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2015, 12:35:27 am »
0

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/

Yeah, this is quite an old one, but still pretty relevant.

I just read this article and the comment on it and my big question is, what are the "four pillars" one guy mentioned in the comments? I don't think I've ever heard of that.

At one point Donald described Chapel, Gardens, Thief, and Witch as the "four pillars" of base-game strategy, since their presence in a kingdom can fundamentally change what kinds of decks it's possible or desirable to build.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2015, 01:02:35 am »
0

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/

I just read this article and the comment on it and my big question is, what are the "four pillars" one guy mentioned in the comments? I don't think I've ever heard of that.

At one point Donald described Chapel, Gardens, Thief, and Witch as the "four pillars" of base-game strategy, since their presence in a kingdom can fundamentally change what kinds of decks it's possible or desirable to build.

Thief?? and not village? weird.

Donald X.

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2015, 01:57:06 am »
+1

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/

I just read this article and the comment on it and my big question is, what are the "four pillars" one guy mentioned in the comments? I don't think I've ever heard of that.

At one point Donald described Chapel, Gardens, Thief, and Witch as the "four pillars" of base-game strategy, since their presence in a kingdom can fundamentally change what kinds of decks it's possible or desirable to build.

Thief?? and not village? weird.
They go together. Chapel makes your deck smaller, Thief makes your deck bigger and their deck smaller, Witch makes their deck bigger, and Gardens cares about deck size.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2015, 02:28:50 am »
0

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/

I just read this article and the comment on it and my big question is, what are the "four pillars" one guy mentioned in the comments? I don't think I've ever heard of that.

At one point Donald described Chapel, Gardens, Thief, and Witch as the "four pillars" of base-game strategy, since their presence in a kingdom can fundamentally change what kinds of decks it's possible or desirable to build.

Thief?? and not village? weird.
They go together. Chapel makes your deck smaller, Thief makes your deck bigger and their deck smaller, Witch makes their deck bigger, and Gardens cares about deck size.

O-kay. So I guess it's not really about what kinds of decks it's possible or desirable to build?
'cause it seems to me that the availability of a village changes what kind of deck you should build a lot more than thief does...

Donald X.

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2015, 02:49:36 am »
+3

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/

I just read this article and the comment on it and my big question is, what are the "four pillars" one guy mentioned in the comments? I don't think I've ever heard of that.

At one point Donald described Chapel, Gardens, Thief, and Witch as the "four pillars" of base-game strategy, since their presence in a kingdom can fundamentally change what kinds of decks it's possible or desirable to build.

Thief?? and not village? weird.
They go together. Chapel makes your deck smaller, Thief makes your deck bigger and their deck smaller, Witch makes their deck bigger, and Gardens cares about deck size.

O-kay. So I guess it's not really about what kinds of decks it's possible or desirable to build?
'cause it seems to me that the availability of a village changes what kind of deck you should build a lot more than thief does...
- The idea wasn't to pick a set of things tersely described that would maximally satisfy LibraryAdventurer. So it's no surprise that it has failed to do that.
- It's not going to change, so it's going to continue to fail to satisfy you, unless you change, I can't rule that out.
- If you are asking, you are not mistaken that +2 Actions shakes up the game a lot. You could make a categorization system for cards around that if you wanted. The usual thing I say is, you can play with Villages to play extra actions, or with actions you can just play multiples of i.e. cantrips, or Remodels/Vaults which make use of otherwise dead actions, or go for Gardens and who cares if you have dead cards, or just play a few actions and expect not to draw them together too much. However so many cards fit those categories that you don't end up with a tidy short list of things that all relate.
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michaeljb

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2015, 10:02:47 am »
0

If you predict there are 5 or more turns left in the game, I agree that Mine is best. I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, but is there reason to buy mine over gold here after turn 10?

I'm pretty sure that's the kind of thing that can be easily configured in the simulator, and I don't think my bot has any turn checking on the Mine rule. You can always play with the simulator and share your results :)

Also, your other post mentioned "careful use of Cellar", which sadly I believe is beyond the scope of Geronimoo's simulator, but I could see that improving win percentage a little more.
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ancientcampus

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Re: First game strategies
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2015, 12:37:49 pm »
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If you predict there are 5 or more turns left in the game, I agree that Mine is best. I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, but is there reason to buy mine over gold here after turn 10?
Also, your other post mentioned "careful use of Cellar", which sadly I believe is beyond the scope of Geronimoo's simulator, but I could see that improving win percentage a little more.

Most certainly. If it wasn't clear from my post, I was somewhat in awe at how much improvement you managed to cram into your simulation. I'm definitely not critiquing the simulation, just trying to see what changes to make when applying it to human play.

The competition also made me realize how "simulator battles" are fun in their own right.
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