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UmbrageOfSnow

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Balancing Charge Me Up!
« on: July 24, 2015, 07:11:11 pm »

So the setup Mail-mi originally wanted to use for M66 really intrigued me, but I didn't want to play because of balance concerns, and a lot of other people seemed to feel the same way, and/or dislike the posting restriction.

So I want to come up with a version that we all like that doesn't have a posting restriction and is more likely to be balanced.

I don't particularly want to run this myself when I one day step up to mod a game, but it seemed like a cool concept and I don't want to clog up Mail-mi's thread with talk about this.

Critiques and suggestions from everyone would be super helpful, and when we're collectively happy with this, I think anyone who wants to should run it.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2015, 07:22:50 pm »

Proposed Power Voting Rules

1) 3 Mafia, 12 Town are rolled, Scum have time to chat on Night 0

2) Part-way through Day 1, or before the flip is revealed if a majority is reached before then, each player PMs the mod with
    a) The name of the PR they want.
    b) The name of a player they'd like to charge up (no self-voting.)

2.5 Additional Voting Rules for the Mafia:
  • Mafia must vote for a town player
  • Each Mafia Member submits the name of one target, all votes cast by town for the target will charge up the Mafia member instead.  Any votes cast by the mafia will still charge up the town player they voted for.
  • Players voted for by Mafia members may not be night killed by the Mafia for 2 nights for each mafia member who voted for them.  i.e. if 3 players each receive one charge from one of the mafia, those 3 players are Night Kill-Immune on Night 1 and Night 2.  If 1 player receives votes from all 3 members of the mafia, that player is Night Kill-Immune for Nights 1 through 6.

3) Each player gets one charge (shot) for each Power Vote. The following rules are applied in THIS order:

– If a player gets no Power Votes, they remain Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon (respectively).

– If two or more players chose the same Power Role, the one who gets fewer Power Votes gets the PR and the one who had more Power Votes becomes an X-shot Recharger, with X equal to the number of votes they received.

– If exactly two players have the same Power Role and the same amount of Power Votes, both of them will get the desired role.

– If three or more players have the same Power Role and the same amount of Power Votes, all of them become X-Shot Rechargers with X equal to the number of votes they received.

– If all 3 scum would receive a non-Recharger Power Role, the one who received the lowest number of votes (including stolen votes) becomes an X-shot Recharger with X equal to the number of votes they received.  Other players who chose the same PR are reconsidered as if the depowerd Mafia member did not exist.

– If none of the scumteam would receive a non-Recharger Power Role, the one who received the most votes (including stolen votes) becomes an X-shot power role of the role they chose, with X equal to the number of votes received.  Distribution of power roles among town is not reconsidered in this case.  If scum somehow received no votes at all after stealing, they each become a 1-shot of their chosen PR.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 04:02:25 am by UmbrageOfSnow »
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2015, 07:25:25 pm »

Potential X-Shot Power Roles: Updated for the reduced list.

Scum players cannot perform the night kill on any night on which they use a power.

Rolecop: On X nights of your choice you may target a player. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing their role name.  You do not learn how many charges they have or had.  Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies will both trigger a result of "no power role".

Tracker: On X nights of your choice you may target a player to discover who that player targeted in the same Night. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing the names of all players that were targeted or "Stayed Home".

Watcher: On X nights of your choice you may target a player. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing the names of all players who visited your target that night. You will receive a Message containing "No Visitors" if no one visited your target.

Jailkeeper: On X nights of your choice may target a player to protect them from being killed during that night; your target will be unable to perform any night actions that night. You will not be informed whether you protected the player from a kill or prevented any night actions.  Night actions can still target them, and they still receive charges if recharged.  You may not self-target.

Redirector: On X nights of your choice you may target two players. Every Night Action performed on the first player you choose will be performed on the second player you choose.  No one will be informed that their actions have been redirected, but you appear to visit both targets. If your redirection fails, you will not be informed about it. You do redirect Nightkills.

Midnight Mystic: On X nights of your choice may learn the total number of Night Actions performed that Night, regardless of their success or failure. The number you receive from the Mod includes Nightkills and your own action.  You also learn how many charges are remaining in the game once the night's actions are resolved.  Since you are not targeting any player, Tracker and Watcher do not see you.

One-Night Neighborizer: On X nights of your choice, you may name a player.  A private QT will be set up for you and that player, to be closed at the end of the night.

---------
Special Role, may not be chosen:
Recharger: On X nights of your choice, you may target a player to add an extra shot to their ability. If you target a player who has no special abilities (a Vanilla Townie or a Mafia Goon), your shot is lost. If you target a player who has used all their shots, they still get an extra shot.  If you are roleblocked (i.e. by the Jailkeeper) your shot is not consumed and you are notified by PM at the end of the night.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 06:56:39 pm by UmbrageOfSnow »
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2015, 07:52:43 pm »

So some of this is kind of good for scum, but it's in town's best interest to force a vote-claim on the first day.

Which means it's in scum's best interest to vote for townies rather than themselves, or vote for themselves and claim they voted for townies who were robbed.

Is it scumsided now?  Is it still too random?

Keep in mind that town can poach "scum" PRs as they are quite likely to get fewer votes.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 07:55:33 pm by UmbrageOfSnow »
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ashersky

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2015, 08:37:59 pm »

So basically...everyone confirms as "got my PM, I want to be Roleblocker, Charge up Voltaire."

The mod soft-assigns each chosen role to each player, adds up the charges.

If you have zero charges -- Vanilla.
If you have less charges than another player who has the same role -- Vanilla.
If you have exactly the same charges as other players with the same role -- Chosen PR.
If you have more charges than another player who has the same role -- Chosen PR.

Scum select a townie and steals all their charges.

Is that right?
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ashersky

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2015, 08:38:30 pm »

Can't all that be done on N0, so no posting is allowed anyway?  What's the posting restriction thing?

I think you have to allow claiming of the voting and all that on D1, that's a major part of theory discussion.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2015, 09:02:12 pm »

Can't all that be done on N0, so no posting is allowed anyway?  What's the posting restriction thing?

I think you have to allow claiming of the voting and all that on D1, that's a major part of theory discussion.

There is no posting restriction, but in Mail-mi's original suggestion (taken from a mafiascum design contest thing) there was.  Everyone hated the posting restriction, so I'm trying to figure out a version without one.  It was there to prevent a vote-claim from solving the setup.

And yeah, this is all N0 at this point.

Discussion of votes after-the-fact is probably critical for town here.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2015, 09:05:16 pm »


If you have less charges than another player who has the same role -- Vanilla.
If you have more charges than another player who has the same role -- Chosen PR.

You're reading it right except this part is backwards: if you have more charges than another player and the same PR, you become vanilla and the player with fewer charges becomes the PR.

This prevents everyone piling on one player, although with the addition of vote stealing, the way you originally read it could work now.  Maybe that's better?
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ashersky

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2015, 12:38:49 am »

Like, make it simpler for argument's sake.

9 town players, only cop/doc/rb to chose.

A - cop
B - cop
C - cop
D - doc
E - doc
F - doc
G - rb
H - rb
I - rb
J - scum
K - scum
H - scum

If each of these players votes one player down on the list, all nine of them get 1-shot powers, except the three that got stolen, right?

If A got 3, D got 3, and G got 3, and scum stole from B, E, and H...town gets a 3-shot cop, 3-shot doc, and a 3-shot RB.

Is that all right?
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2015, 01:43:30 am »


If you have less charges than another player who has the same role -- Vanilla.
If you have more charges than another player who has the same role -- Chosen PR.

You're reading it right except this part is backwards: if you have more charges than another player and the same PR, you become vanilla and the player with fewer charges becomes the PR.

This prevents everyone piling on one player, although with the addition of vote stealing, the way you originally read it could work now.  Maybe that's better?

Yeah, that would be much more intuitive and it should be kept in check by the vote stealing.  The way it is now, voting just seems like this really abstract thing.  You want good town players/people choosing good PR's to have exactly one vote; how does that help you decide who to vote for?  But if you do it the way ash interpreted it, you can just vote for the best player, except not necessarily because of WIFOM.  It's a lot simpler and more intuitive and you have a clearer objective with what you're trying to do.

I'm still kind of confused by why the power distribution rules are so weird though.  The powers are not intended to be balanced right?  Because I think Recharger is strictly worse than everything else.  But the idea is that you try to WIFOM the other players since it's bad to have the same power as someone else?  I guess what throws me off is the last two rules: if exactly two players choose the same power and get the same number of votes, they both get it, but if three or more choose it, no one gets it.  It seems like it should always be a bad thing to choose the same power as someone else (or neutral at best), but as it is, it could be a good thing.  I would suggest just cutting out the third rule and saying if two or more players choose the same power and tie for votes, no one gets the power.

Then there's a concern that the fourth rule (the one that's bolded #4, I realize now it's confusing what I'm talking about when I just call everything "rules") could reward players for all choosing the most powerful role, since they'll all get a shot of it anyway.  That's probably bad actually, but it's something to think about at least.


I think the vote stealing is good though, that should make you not need the posting restriction anymore.  I'd have to think about it some more to be 100% sure on that, but it seems like scum should be able to fake claim their voting reasonably with that.
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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2015, 01:48:54 am »

I might suggest a limit to votes instead of measuring them up with one another. That would ensure there wouldn't be too many PR. Another possibility is to add a mechanic where people start with 10 points and x amount of players get a PR and are chosen based on how many points they assign to each PR compared to how other people delegate their points -the more points, the higher the chance that they get that role. The theory here is to prevent everyone from going after the best roles. Some people would choose to put more points into a less desired role in hopes that they would get a better chance of being one of the ones who gets a PR. It would also add balance because there is enough diversity to where everyone is not going to pick the same roles simply because people would have a preference for one role over the other. It would also give a lot more power to the individual on playing their luck on what role they will be. If everyone put all their points into one role then you could say the least popular X amount of PR chosen are the PR in the game. Those are my initial thoughts anyway.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2015, 05:07:06 pm »

@QuickSync: Each player only gets one vote.

@Scott: Yeah, I agree now that you mention it.  Although that does make it harder for town to steal scum PRs.  I wonder if things like Redirector and Rolecop that are more useful to scum should be changed or replaced in that case, so scum don't have "obvious" PR choices?

And yeah, the weird power distribution was the core of the idea.  Some are definitely better than others, although I got rid of cop, for example, because it was too much better IMO.  The 2 players only get it if they're tied in votes, and that's so it's less likely to create a bunch of VTs.  The 3 or more thing is to ensure the optimal strategy isn't to all pile on the "best" PR.  If the optimal strategy were to be "choose at random", having 2 people pick the same PR would still be quite likely (birthday paradox), so it seems worth not punishing that too much.

I added the rule about adding new PR's to equal scum charges, not sure how much it helps, but without that I was worried it was too random.  But I hope it won't actually come up much.

Maybe I should ditch or change the 4th rule?

If it added charges to existing PRs, it would make town more vulnerable to a lucky NK or mislynch, which would make it worse for town if it got invoked than if it wasn't.  Thoughts?
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2015, 05:11:58 pm »

Like, make it simpler for argument's sake.

9 town players, only cop/doc/rb to chose.

A - cop
B - cop
C - cop
D - doc
E - doc
F - doc
G - rb
H - rb
I - rb
J - scum
K - scum
H - scum

If each of these players votes one player down on the list, all nine of them get 1-shot powers, except the three that got stolen, right?

If A got 3, D got 3, and G got 3, and scum stole from B, E, and H...town gets a 3-shot cop, 3-shot doc, and a 3-shot RB.

Is that all right?

In your example, each player gets 1 vote.  If we ignored how stealing votes changes things, then no one would get any PRs since they're all tied with at least 2 other people with the same PR, and the 4th rule I was just discussing (that I wanted to add for circumstances like this) would come into play and PRs would basically get randomized.  Which is why having more PRs is important to the concept.

I thought of that 4th bolded rule more for the case of adding an extra PR or two because town is underpowered, if town would end up in a situation with no powerroles normally, it'd be a disaster.  (Although I kind of think the bolded rule might make it a semi-balanced disaster?)  Anyway, it's pretty unlikely.

But yeah, if 3 players each get 3 votes and those votes aren't stolen, town has 3, 3-shot PRs.  (Which is why I was thinking cop is too strong.)
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2015, 05:18:35 pm »

It is still awfully random.

I think I should come up with a set of "rules" for how town and scum could vote at random, then role a couple example setups and we can evaluate how balanced they are.

Any thoughts on what those ruled voting strategies should be?

I think optimally, pure randomness isn't ideal, I suspect (and want to be the case) that town wants to vote for "middle" town the most, "stronger town" the second most, and "weaker town" third, while scum wants to steal from "stronger town" most, "middle town" next, and still steal from "weaker town" with some probability.

Basically a mass of WiFoM seems neat, and is the point I think,  but it would be neat if the optimal strategies approached something like that so the choices weren't really random and pre-game evaluation and outguessing (i.e. the scumteam know the player list and can try to outguess the town players) could come into it.

So yeah, I'll come back to this tomorrow with some examples, both with the current rules, and the proposed "more votes wins" rules.  Figure the player list should be broken into 3 "strong town", 3 "weak town" and 5 "average town" and 3 scum, because as we all know, if you have 3 strips of bacon, one is automatically bad.

I'll pull some numbers out of my ass and come up with example setups.
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Archetype

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2015, 05:38:01 pm »

The distribution of powers is just too random if shots are given out N0. Perhaps players name what power they want to have N0 and then have until the end of D1 to submit who they want to charge up?
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2015, 05:43:07 pm »

Oh, that's a really neat idea, Arch!

If players can plan who they are charging in-thread on Day 1 (before the flip I think) it allows planned voting strategies, but that reduces randomness for both sides and I'm worried about it being a bit scumsided anyway...

Makes the scum vote-stealing really critical though.  That should prevent any true breaking strategies.

I think that might be better with a smaller number of PRs to choose from?  (More than 3 though.)
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2015, 05:55:19 pm »

If it's chosen in-thread, scum's ability to lie is important.

I think scum need to be able to openly claim what roles they are picking to prevent some rolecop-centered breaking strategy, or rolecop needs to become a Vanilla/notVanilla cop.

What about this for a PR list for that variation:

– X-shot Rolecop
– X-shot Tracker
– X-shot Watcher
– X-shot Jailkeeper
– X-shot Redirector
– X-shot Recharger
– X-shot Midnight Mystic
– X-shot One-Night Neighborizer

I'm thinking this takes away the ones that are significantly more useful for town or scum, so scum can't be saddled with too many useless roles due to enforcing a random distribution and seeing who argues with it because they don't want to be a scum Midnight Desparado or Friendly Neighbor.

Only 8 PRs would make choosing entirely at random much more likely to produce collisions, which ups the Wifom and force town to discuss this...
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2015, 07:41:28 pm »

So here's a thought: instead of adding the 4th bolded rule, what about this:

3) Each player gets one charge (shot) for each Pre-Game Vote. The following rules are applied in THIS order:

– If a player gets no Pre-Game-Votes, they remain Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon (respectively).

– If two or more players chose the same Power Role, the one who gets fewer Pre-Game Votes gets the PR and the one who had more Pre-Game Votes becomes an X-shot Recharger, with X equal to the number of votes they received.

– If exactly two players have the same Power Role and the same amount of Pre-Game Votes, both of them will get the desired role.

– If three or more players have the same Power Role and the same amount of Pre-Game Votes, all of them become X-Shot Rechargers with X equal to the number of votes they recieved.

Changes in bold.  This way there aren't any scenarios where town has a bunch of PRs zerod out, and any giant number of PRs for scum are town's own fault.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2015, 07:42:18 pm »

Obviously Recharder is removed from the normal PR list if we go with that.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2015, 07:46:36 pm »

That actually makes a lot of sense.  The main concern would be that with too many Rechargers, everyone will just be trading shots around looking for the actual PR's to give them to.  But I think it will be okay.
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QuickSync

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2015, 07:56:48 pm »

So here's a thought: instead of adding the 4th bolded rule, what about this:

3) Each player gets one charge (shot) for each Pre-Game Vote. The following rules are applied in THIS order:

– If a player gets no Pre-Game-Votes, they remain Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon (respectively).

– If two or more players chose the same Power Role, the one who gets fewer Pre-Game Votes gets the PR and the one who had more Pre-Game Votes becomes an X-shot Recharger, with X equal to the number of votes they received.

– If exactly two players have the same Power Role and the same amount of Pre-Game Votes, both of them will get the desired role.

– If three or more players have the same Power Role and the same amount of Pre-Game Votes, all of them become X-Shot Rechargers with X equal to the number of votes they recieved.

Changes in bold.  This way there aren't any scenarios where town has a bunch of PRs zerod out, and any giant number of PRs for scum are town's own fault.
If it's chosen in-thread, scum's ability to lie is important.

I think scum need to be able to openly claim what roles they are picking to prevent some rolecop-centered breaking strategy, or rolecop needs to become a Vanilla/notVanilla cop.

What about this for a PR list for that variation:

– X-shot Rolecop
– X-shot Tracker
– X-shot Watcher
– X-shot Jailkeeper
– X-shot Redirector
– X-shot Recharger
– X-shot Midnight Mystic
– X-shot One-Night Neighborizer

I'm thinking this takes away the ones that are significantly more useful for town or scum, so scum can't be saddled with too many useless roles due to enforcing a random distribution and seeing who argues with it because they don't want to be a scum Midnight Desparado or Friendly Neighbor.

Only 8 PRs would make choosing entirely at random much more likely to produce collisions, which ups the Wifom and force town to discuss this...

I have to ask: votes are secret right? I mean they would have to be. Also, can you vote for yourself? It seems the people who get the most charges end up without a PR.
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ashersky

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2015, 09:16:45 pm »

Thoughts:

--I think you need less roles to choose from
--you need to incentivize distribution of charges (like, we all vote for Faust usually, so how do we make people not vote for Faust)
--you need yo maintain some semblance of balance

So, what's the real goal of any townie?  To get a mega-shot PR, right?  Like an 8-shot Cop or something.  But then, well, all the power is consolidated.  So maybe we want 4 2-shot Cops.

Each player has to think that stuff through on their own when selecting and voting.  It's tough.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2015, 09:24:53 pm »

--you need to incentivize distribution of charges (like, we all vote for Faust usually, so how do we make people not vote for Faust)

I think that's the point of the stealing mechanic.
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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2015, 11:07:54 pm »

I (like I said in the original thread) would prefer to do away with the voting altogether, and instead have the process randomized

I think that the roles themselves would be all right left to choice, although I feel like pregame discussion could make that too strong in town's favor
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Re: Balancing Charge Me Up!
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2015, 12:09:07 am »

@Quick: Votes are secret and you can't vote for yourself and each player has one vote.  You only lose the PR if you pick the same role as someone else, and I'm thinking that should just be becoming a recharger instead of a VT anyway.

@Ash: What Scott said, scum can steal the votes from (currently 3) players, turning those players into PRs.  If everyone votes Faust and scum assumes that, scum wind up with a ton of power, and Faust ends up with none.  Of course, then everyone votes for you because you're the second favorite, etc.  So a more random distribution is important.

It's occurring to me that maybe either scum shouldn't get votes, just the stealing, or they should be forced to vote for town (to try to vote in the least-helpful way possible or something.)

I'm thinking if we go with voting on Day 1, power roles do need to be reduced, I agree.  Do you think the smaller list I made a few posts up is still too large?  Keeping in mind that these will wind up mostly 1-shot or 2-shot in practice?

I think the goal of town during voting should really be to ensure town has the maximum number of shots (one reason I'm advocating removing cop.)  So loading up on Faust is null, we want kind of an even spread with a bias toward the players who will use it better, but also a bias against letting scum steal too many votes.

@Ghacob: I'm 100% opposed to doing away with the voting, that's what intrigues me about the whole thing.  As I see it that's the point.  That's the idea.  There are random setups, and randomized setups can be fun.  But the voting metagame is basically the point of this.

What do you think of the new, reduced roles list?  Pretend you're town, what plan would you proposed to bend it in your favor?
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