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[werothegreat]

So at the beginning of Tabletop's latest episode, where they tackle Legendary, Willy says that most deckbuilders would not work on their show.  Why exactly is that?  As most of us can attest to, there's plenty of entertainment to be had not just playing, but watching a game of Dominion.  So what's the problem?

[LastFootnote]

there's plenty of entertainment to be had not just playing, but watching a game of Dominion.

I think that's a minority opinion. I tend to agree with Wil.

[werothegreat]

there's plenty of entertainment to be had not just playing, but watching a game of Dominion.

I think that's a minority opinion. I tend to agree with Wil.

Why, exactly?

[jsh357]

I can understand what LF/Wheaton are saying; it's hard to illustrate what's cool about building a deck to an audience that's unfamiliar with the concept. However, I don't enjoy watching board games I'm unfamiliar with at all, and don't really like watching most board games in general. I find Tabletop mind-numbingly boring, but I guess it doesn't help that I barely even know who Wheaton is (aside from him being the worst character in the few TNG episodes I've watched) and he comes off as a typical youtube hipster in those videos. Video games are usually more entertaining to watch other people play since there's less abstract stuff going on.

The only reason I enjoy watching Dominion is because I'm so invested in the game and knowing a lot about its strategy makes commentary on it exciting to me. That and it's easy to get passionate about competitions like the League or World Cup, which are the main games I watch.

[Fragasnap]

As someone who watches Board Game Geek's Game Night!, I know I am not a particularly normal consumer of videos, but I do understand what TableTop is looking for. To be specific, Tabletop looks for games that will be fun for the general public to watch, and that requires that the game do some combination of being simple (Roll with It), encouraging discussion among players (Catan, Coup), and looking pretty set up on a table (Carcassonne, Five Tribes). Dominion is really only entertaining to watch when both you and the players understand deeper strategy-spaces of the game. Without that knowledge, Dominion is (and most deck builders are) incredibly abstract and solitary. Tabletop needs games that are played out in the air, not in players' heads.

Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game had the advantages of being a cooperative game (assuming one takes it as a cooperative game, anyway), thereby encouraging discussion and collusion amongst players, and being a licensed product which will, whether fairly or not, naturally turn some heads.

[Twistedarcher]

there's plenty of entertainment to be had not just playing, but watching a game of Dominion.

I think that's a minority opinion. I tend to agree with Wil.

Why, exactly?

I think watching a game of dominion is only fun for players who already know what's going on, which isn't the intended audience.

[jaybeez]

... I barely even know who Wheaton is (aside from him being the worst character in the few TNG episodes I've watched) ...

Oh really?



Edit: and you've never seen Stand By Me?

[jsh357]

... I barely even know who Wheaton is (aside from him being the worst character in the few TNG episodes I've watched) ...

Oh really?



Edit: and you've never seen Stand By Me?

Don't know who that is (I have literally watched 4 Star Trek episodes), and no.  I didn't watch a lot of "real people" movies as a kid since I preferred cartoons, so I missed a lot of 80s/90s pop culture.

[werothegreat]

... I barely even know who Wheaton is (aside from him being the worst character in the few TNG episodes I've watched) ...

Oh really?



Edit: and you've never seen Stand By Me?

Q is awesome.  Heathen.

[scott_pilgrim]

I would imagine that a major factor is that you need to know what 10 different cards do in order to follow what's happening.  I think it would be hard to really get the text on the screen, so they'd have to say every time they played or bought a card what it does, and it's also hard to keep track of why players are doing what they're doing when you're trying to keep track of what all the cards do.  I imagine other deckbuilders have a similar problem.

[Lekkit]

Deckbuilding games focus on the building of the decks. Not showing every turn takes away much from this. Tabletop focus more on the social interactions and less on the game. I think that in that format, deckbuilding games in general won't be that interesting.

Legendary is an exception however, since it's so heavily themed.

[qmech]

Early experiences playing Dominion do feel like multiplayer solitaire.  They could very easily spend a day filming and come up with a 4 hour shuffling video.

[Kirian]

Much like Prismata, Chess, or the planet Earth, Dominion has a very thin veneer of theme covering a huge depth of interesting stuff.  Dominion's veneer is thicker than Chess's, but not enough to make it interesting to watch unless you're heavily invested in the underlying strategy.

You're not going to see deep strategy on Tabletop.

[Lekkit]

You're not going to see deep strategy on Tabletop.

These were the guys who almost lost to Red Skull in Legendary. You are absolutely right.

[werothegreat]

Legendary also doesn't seem to have cards that draw, or combo much with each other.  And you can play as many cards as you like.  So you can play it the way lots of players seem to want to play Dominion when they don't quite understand the rules.

[Lekkit]

Legendary also doesn't seem to have cards that draw, or combo much with each other.  And you can play as many cards as you like.  So you can play it the way lots of players seem to want to play Dominion when they don't quite understand the rules.

This is kind of true for the base set. But it can get kind of crazy. However, I agree that it seems to be that way. Bottom line is. Legendary is very watchable if you don't know anything about it. Most deckbuilders aren't.

[GendoIkari]

... I barely even know who Wheaton is (aside from him being the worst character in the few TNG episodes I've watched) ...

Oh really?



Edit: and you've never seen Stand By Me?

Are you implying that Q is the worst TNG character??  That's insane; many of the best episodes are the ones he's in.

[jaybeez]

That's exactly what I'm implying.  I honestly didn't realize that some people love him because I find him to be one of the most consistently obnoxious characters to ever appear on a TV show.  The only episode featuring Q that I can stand to watch is "All Good Things..." because not even his relentlessly smarmy presence can ruin that episode.  I also hate, hate, hate omnipotence in fiction, I think it's the laziest of literary conceits.  Perhaps I'm in the minority.

I will say, upon further reflection, that Lwaxana Troi is at least as annoying.

[TheEmerged]

Jaybeez - there are people out there who think JarJar was one of the best parts of Phantom Menace.  I blame the Law Of Large Numbers - with a sufficiently large sample size, you will probably find someone that loves <insert here> and someone that despises <insert here>.  As for Q himself, I'm a subscriber to the fantheory that he's the same character from "The Squire of Gothos".

As to the topic... I wouldn't make overmuch of Tabletop in general.  Their emphasis is always at least 90% "how the players are acting", often way more.  They tend to get at least one rule wrong per episode and sometimes seem to have little\no idea how the gameplay of the featured game works out - the Stone Age episode was particularly bad for that.  The Forbidden Desert episode was almost physically painful for me (but I'm prone to psychosomatic pain).  I am guilty of wondering how much of their game selection is due to sponsorship at times, since it sometimes looks like everyone at the table is playing the portrayed game for the first time (I'd understand one or two new players - that's to be expected).

[popsofctown]

Puzzle Strike would actually work a lot better, it has an exciting, viewable board state, and some straightforward starting points of strategy that suggest "do this thing to start winning".

I'll see myself out.

[rhogar]

I think a lot of the folks here hit it on the head, deckbuilders just don't lend to the casual viewer because there are abstract concepts being executed. I watch Tabletop and I love tabletop wargaming, which means most of the episodes are of games I just wouldn't ever buy. I watch it because I find (most of) the banter entertaining and I enjoy the player interactions. A game of Dominion doesn't really lend well to this, and if you explained your buying strategy for that engine or BM deck, well, that's a lot of the fun out of it. Plus, if you are watching Tabletop, you aren't looking for a deep analysis of every play.

I think Legendary works because it's cooperative, it's a popular theme (comics), and you can really ham it up through the course of play. I imagine most deckbuilders wouldn't be as forgiving. As much as I love Dominion, I have to be a realist and admit that just because I enjoy watching something, doesn't mean tens of thousands of people will too.