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Author Topic: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver  (Read 4380 times)

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Rabid

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Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« on: January 05, 2012, 05:43:11 pm »
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Crazy board with: Black Market, Chapel, Conspirator, Envoy, Expand, King's Court, Potion, Silk Road, Smugglers, Trader, and Transmute, Native Village (Bane for YW). (YW only curser in BM)

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/05/game-20120105-143127-27ef8369.html

I played badly on the last two turns, forgetting you can draw the card you have just expanded, then miss counted the fairgrounds to loose by 1 point.

Question is which opening is better here: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver ?

Anything else I could improve on?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 05:55:49 pm by Rabid »
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Geronimoo

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 05:46:15 pm »
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Native Village isn't showing (prob bane card for YW in the BM?)
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Rabid

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2012, 05:56:11 pm »
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Oops, correct thanks.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 06:08:14 pm »
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How viable is a Conspirator chain on this board?  the only way to jump start the chain is with King's Court, Native Village, or cards from the Black Market.  The only +buy would also have to come from the Black Market.  I would guess something boring like Envoy/Big Money is going to be pretty close to optimal here.

If you can snag a +buy out of the Black Market, Chapel down, and fire Conspiritors off with King's Court, it could be powerful, but without +buy, I don't think it would be fast enough.

Jorbles

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2012, 06:21:04 pm »
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Depending on what's in the Black Market deck I'd either open Chapel/Envoy or Chapel/Black Market. You have to worry about terminal collision a little, but it doesn't seem that important as by the mid game you won't be playing your Chapel at all. Without +Cantrips or card drawing Villages out there I don't think a Conspirator chain is going to be that strong.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 06:24:47 pm by Jorbles »
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Deadlock39

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 06:28:36 pm »
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I don't really know if it plays it correctly, but in Geronimoo's simulator Envoy/Silver crushes Envoy/Chapel

Jorbles

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 07:31:50 pm »
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It may still end up losing to Envoy/BM, but I don't think ChapelEnvoy plays optimally as it does things like this (this is bear in mind from rspeer's simulator, not Geronimoo's):
Code: [Select]
== EnvoyChapel's turn 3 ==
EnvoyChapel plays Copper.
EnvoyChapel plays Copper.
EnvoyChapel plays Copper.
Coins: 3, Potions: 0, Buys: 1
EnvoyChapel buys Silver.
EnvoyChapel draws 5 cards: [Chapel, Estate, Copper, Envoy, Copper].

== EnvoyChapel's turn 4 ==
EnvoyChapel plays Envoy.
(EnvoyChapel shuffles.)
EnvoyChapel draws [Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate, Estate].
BigEnvoy chooses for EnvoyChapel to discard Copper.
EnvoyChapel plays Copper.
EnvoyChapel plays Copper.
EnvoyChapel plays Copper.
EnvoyChapel plays Copper.
Coins: 4, Potions: 0, Buys: 1
EnvoyChapel buys Silver.
(EnvoyChapel shuffles.)
EnvoyChapel draws 5 cards: [Copper, Silver, Copper, Copper, Envoy].

It has a terminal collision on turn 4 and instead of using the Chapel to trash the junk it plays the Envoy. I think in early game you're better off trashing your Coppers and Estates as quickly as possible. Plus this would avoid triggering the reshuffle and missing both your actions on the next run through the deck (though the simulators are bad at triggering reshuffles correctly anyways).

This is the code I used for EnvoyChapel.
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'EnvoyChapel'
  requires: ['Envoy', 'Chapel']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Colony" if my.countInDeck("Platinum") > 0
    "Province" if state.countInSupply("Colony") <= 6 \
               or state.countInSupply("Province") <= 6
   
    "Duchy" if 0 < state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Estate" if 0 < state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Platinum"
    "Gold"
    "Envoy" if my.countInDeck("Envoy") < 1
    "Chapel" if my.countInDeck("Chapel") < 1
    "Silver"
    "Copper" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 3
  ]
}

It's possible that even though it's playing incorrectly it may still not be as good as EnvoyBigMoney, but that's completely up in the air.

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Deadlock39

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 08:35:00 pm »
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I looked at the play rules for Geronimoo's sim (which has two sets of play rules for Chapel), and it looked like the Aggressive Trashing rules would pretty much do what you are describing.  Using that strategy over the normal one did worse in every version I tried, and I never got any Chapel/Envoy Strategy over a 28% win rate.  I tried some strategies that would open Chapel/Silver, and hold off on the Envoy until it had gotten rid of 2 or 3 Estates, but those all got crushed too.  There are probably more tweaks that could be made, but it is just losing by so much I highly doubt it could be optimized enough to pull off a win.  My understanding has always been that Chapel does not help with Big Money strategies. 

rod-

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2012, 09:45:03 pm »
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I think I'd likely just go Envoy on this board ; there's nothing to chapel into.  If envoy wasn't on the board, i'd probably just open trader/silver and go nuts.  I've played a lot of SingleTrader solo games recently and its nearly as fast as DoubleJack, certainly nothing to sneeze at and certainly faster than anything I can come up with for chapels here.
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ehunt

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2012, 10:18:21 pm »
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I don't agree with the grand envoy diagnosis. Grand envoy is good at getting to four provinces and not bad at getting to about six, but then slows down a lot. OK, six is a lot of provinces, maybe enough, but chapel + kc + lots of things in the black market (and the fairgrounds in the BM + silk roads to make up for the lost points) should cause an amazing megaturn to overwhelm even that much of a lead.

As to the original question - I don't know! I'm tempted toward conspirator if they're the eventual strategy and there's no good 2-cost card (besides chapel!) on the board and silver otherwise.
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DG

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2012, 10:22:09 pm »
+1

The black market and king's court are often good partners. First may have got the bulk of it right.
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rod-

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2012, 11:23:15 pm »
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If someone's trying to build up to a megaturn, expand is in the kingdom, there's nothing stopping you from buying expand on 7 (or even 8) after 4 provinces.  No more choking.

Also, how are you getting a megaturn from this set?  You have to pull *everything* you need out of the black market.  No buys whatsoever.  So you have to pull out 3 different cards that all give buys!  Then you have to pull something that will draw you into them all together with the KC, unless you're just throwing everything onto the native village mat, presumably from KC'd native villages...I'm just not seeing it.  I'll solitaire it a few times on either side just to prove my point.

And as it happens, i was pretty wrong ; BMEnvoy is slow when you can chapel down to KC.  The black market deck needs to have 2 cards that give +buys, but that usually happens.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:49:12 pm by rod- »
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DStu

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2012, 02:20:33 am »
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It may still end up losing to Envoy/BM, but I don't think ChapelEnvoy plays optimally as it does things like this (this is bear in mind from rspeer's simulator, not Geronimoo's):

You can take care of this if you redefine actionPriority:
Code: [Select]
  actionPriority: (state, my) -> [
  "Chapel" if my.countInHand("Copper") + my.countInHand("Estate") >= 3  #or something like that
  "Envoy"
  "Chapel"
  ]

@topic: I also think that, despite the missing buy, there is everything for the KC-megaturn. Strong trashing, a drawer, money by actions. BigEnvoy of course might make it fast, but there is the Silk Road (and a Fairgrounds) to buy you the time. And there is the Black Market to get you the +buy. And maybe also a Curser.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 02:31:45 am by DStu »
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Empathy

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Re: Chapel / Conspirator vs Chapel / Silver
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2012, 03:46:19 am »
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Opening wise, how about chapel-smuggler?

It helps at the beginning if the other person gets a lucky gold. And once you trimmed down your deck to village + 2 smugglers+smuggled goodies, you are pretty much set to get the engine faster than the other fellow, or the golds if the other person is going BM

The only problem being if the other person hits KC too fast, or goes for blackmarket (both with you missing the gold/ black market on your smuggles).
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