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[skip wooznum]

quote author=skip wooznum link=topic=13595.msg517164#msg517164 date=1439435155]
Im sure it's obvious, but can someone explain how no-lynches are abused by town?

Without all the stuff UoS came up with to prevent abuse, town can just no lynch whenever they want so they don't have to worry about the mimes.  For example, if they lynch a mime, they might decide it's better not to lynch anyone for a while and just let their vig take out scum and/or the other mime, and they can also hope scum takes out the other mime.  It's even worse after they've taken out both scum players; then town would just never lynch and wait for the vig to take out the mimes.
[/quote]no-lynching before scum is dead is ever worthwhile? Interesting.....

I understand the potential abuse once the rule is town needs to keep playing after mafia dies. UoS implied they could abuse it when that was not the rule.

[skip wooznum]

Bust......

[skip wooznum]

Im sure it's obvious, but can someone explain how no-lynches are abused by town?

Without all the stuff UoS came up with to prevent abuse, town can just no lynch whenever they want so they don't have to worry about the mimes.  For example, if they lynch a mime, they might decide it's better not to lynch anyone for a while and just let their vig take out scum and/or the other mime, and they can also hope scum takes out the other mime.  It's even worse after they've taken out both scum players; then town would just never lynch and wait for the vig to take out the mimes.

no-lynching before scum is dead is ever worthwhile? Interesting.....

I understand the potential abuse once the rule is town needs to keep playing after mafia dies. UoS implied they could abuse it when that was not the rule.

[ashersky]

Thinking about this some more, I think I thought of something.  What is the mimes' win condition is to both die the same way?

That is, if one is NKed, instead of suiciding, the other mime needs to be NKed.  That keeps the mimes in the game longer.  Mime is still a pro role, of course, and win chances are definitely less than town or scum, but it adds to it.

I'd do this:

2 mafia goons
2 mimes with a factional JK
1 watcher
1 vig
1 VT cop
5 VTs

That's a 12 player game -- the vanilla cop gets vanilla/not vanilla results, all players other than VTs return "not vanilla" which could be town PR, scum, mime...

Mimes win when both are dead the same way or with two consecutive no lynches.
Goons win when all town members are dead or they control half the town.
Town wins when all scum and one mime are dead.

[ashersky]

That still needs some adjustments, but I think is headed the right way.

[Awaclus]

/in

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I understand the potential abuse once the rule is town needs to keep playing after mafia dies. UoS implied they could abuse it when that was not the rule.

It lets town decide to give scum the advantage to prevent Mimes from winning.  Mime paranoia seems to be a big problem.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Thinking about this some more, I think I thought of something.  What is the mimes' win condition is to both die the same way?

That is, if one is NKed, instead of suiciding, the other mime needs to be NKed.  That keeps the mimes in the game longer.  Mime is still a pro role, of course, and win chances are definitely less than town or scum, but it adds to it.

I'd do this:

2 mafia goons
2 mimes with a factional JK
1 watcher
1 vig
1 VT cop
5 VTs

That's a 12 player game -- the vanilla cop gets vanilla/not vanilla results, all players other than VTs return "not vanilla" which could be town PR, scum, mime...

Mimes win when both are dead the same way or with two consecutive no lynches.
Goons win when all town members are dead or they control half the town.
Town wins when all scum and one mime are dead.

I could get behind the mimes dying the same way thing, someone suggested that elsewhere I think, but I don't think it got any response.

Why make the no-lynches consecutive though?  Town doesn't have many legitimate reasons to No Lynch more than once anyway.

Also, why not make town have to eliminate all the mafia and mimes?  That still allows the weird situation where Mimes auto-win near the end, but it's even less common because both scum have to be dead and vig dead and both mimes alive, or the dead mime has to be dead by NK with the vig dead and the mafia dead.

I don't know, it seems pretty hard to achieve, but is still a slight boost to the mimes.

And I think "all non-town eliminated" is a more natural town wincon anyway.

I do agree that we can eliminate the backup Vig if Mimes can win by both being NKed, town is more likely able to get one Mime dead by NK and lynch the other or something.  And that makes the VT cop more useful.

Do you think the both-Mimes-as-JK is too strong for Mimes?  Or just like it as more natural because it's akin to the Mafia night kill?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The setup looks fun and the Mimes being JKs is neat, but them dying N1 may still be a problem. Hmm. What you could do is give them a factional JK power and then a factional 1-shot Bulletproof (used the first time one of them is NK'd). I also think that the Mafia may be a bit underpowered. Maybe give them Daychat or make the Neapolitan a Vanilla Cop?

Yeah, we were talking about the factional 1-shot BP as well.

I don't think Mafia is underpowered though, Mimes do a lot to disrupt town, without actually having great chances to win themselves.  Mafia would be way underpowered if it were just against the town, but the Mimes mess with things a lot.  I worry that Daychat in particular would allow a lot of anti-Mime coordination on the already difficult to play Mimes.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think roles that win if lynched or killed some other way is unfun. There's enough to worry about in the game than if someone is being purposefully scummy.

I feel the same way about Jesters, but do you really think the Mimes can win by being purposefully scummy in a game with a town vig and where both of them have to be lynched (and thus lynching the first one is "safe" for town) and where it's an open setup so they are known.

I generally think I'd only be okay with Jesters in an open setup with a vig and where either the game doesn't end when they are lynched, or if it does, when it's a team like this that needs both lynched.

But this seems to cure most of the problems of Jesters IMO.  (I'm not locked into this though, just talking out the options.)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Oh, and regarding the double JK on the mimes:  I was thinking that it's usually going to be equivalent to a factional JK (either when one Mime is dead, or when one wants to protect the other) but occasionally it may be optimal for them to try to get two shots at preventing the NK or the Vig.

In that case it's a bit better, but it also makes the Watcher a bit better of an Anti-Mime tool, because there's only one other non-mime visitor besides the watcher if the target doesn't turn up dead.

A Mime doctor and a Mime JK was something else we were tossing around.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Mimes Jailkeep by creating an invisible box around the target, by the way.

[ashersky]

I could get behind the mimes dying the same way thing, someone suggested that elsewhere I think, but I don't think it got any response.

Why make the no-lynches consecutive though?  Town doesn't have many legitimate reasons to No Lynch more than once anyway.

Also, why not make town have to eliminate all the mafia and mimes?  That still allows the weird situation where Mimes auto-win near the end, but it's even less common because both scum have to be dead and vig dead and both mimes alive, or the dead mime has to be dead by NK with the vig dead and the mafia dead.

I don't know, it seems pretty hard to achieve, but is still a slight boost to the mimes.

And I think "all non-town eliminated" is a more natural town wincon anyway.

I do agree that we can eliminate the backup Vig if Mimes can win by both being NKed, town is more likely able to get one Mime dead by NK and lynch the other or something.  And that makes the VT cop more useful.

Do you think the both-Mimes-as-JK is too strong for Mimes?  Or just like it as more natural because it's akin to the Mafia night kill?

I don't know why I said consecutive.  Just a thing to say.  Town would (should) never no lynch twice if they know that gives Mimes the win.

If neither mime has been NKed, making two lynch them to win is odd...since mimes would win if they were eliminated.  So I feel like if it's town vs. mimes, you end up wanting to lynch one, then no lynching until your vig shoots them, which isn't fun or fair.

I would definitely eliminate the backup.

Both Mimes as JKs is super strong.  I think a factional ability is better.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If neither mime has been NKed, making two lynch them to win is odd...since mimes would win if they were eliminated.  So I feel like if it's town vs. mimes, you end up wanting to lynch one, then no lynching until your vig shoots them, which isn't fun or fair.

I don't think town should win if both Mimes are alive and the vig is dead.  I think mimes should auto-win and town lose there.  Or maybe everyone but Mafia should win?

Not sure about all the cases brought up by this rule.

I don't know, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around all the possible cases with the both either NKed or Lynched thing, probably need to write this out on paper or something.

This is also a sort of weird conversation, because I think we need to have it, but the chances of both Mafia being killed before any Mimes are pretty slim I think.  So a ton of attention needs to be paid to what is basically an edge case.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm still debating Duck Duck Goose and coming up with a less Bastard Greater Idea inspired closed setup by the way, since those are the other leading options.

Either way, I want to work out a Paris setup because I think it looks fun and would love to run it at some point, even if not now.  Seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for it though, so that's probably the way I'm leaning of the 3 right now.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, new thread is up here.  Please re-/in if you still want to be in.  (Ash and Awaclus expressed interest in this thread, so I've also reserved them space in the process of upping the player number.)