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Author Topic: Thoughts on Jester  (Read 4387 times)

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theright555J

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Thoughts on Jester
« on: July 07, 2015, 09:31:24 am »
+7

Jester is an interesting attack in that may be either a junker or a gainer, and this is fairly luck based.  Prior to posting this, I reread the 2011 thread about Jester (somewhat comical now in how overpowered it was originally thought to be...except for WW who is of course a genius  :))

Having played a bunch of games with Jester recently, I'm forming a strong opinion that the junking element is far weaker than the gaining.  As an example, in this game http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150707/log.50991563e4b024b832068abb.1436272606957.txt I get hit hard with curses from his early Jester and it's still not enough.  Possible reasons why this may be true:

1.  Hitting a bad card off the opponent's deck cycles it, which is good for them right now.
2.  By the next shuffle, there is often a way to improve cycling or trashing, mitigating the effect of the junk.
3.  The junking is slow (1 card per play of Jester) and takes up valuable 5-cost space as a terminal silver.
4.  Hitting a good card, on the other hand, does exactly the opposite: skips opponent's good card, potentially slowing their deck up to an entire shuffle, while making your own deck expand at a faster rate

As a result, I think Jester is better used on most boards as payload in an established engine as opposed to an opener (of course numerous counterexamples could apply) or in conjunction with deck inspection to guarantee hitting a good target.  Scrying Pool seems especially juicy here, since the rate of expansion in a SP engine tends to determine the winner.

Just some food for thought.  Would love some insight from better players on this!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Thoughts on Jester
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2015, 12:17:49 pm »
+1

I think it's a rule of thumb now to consider Jester as more a gainer than an attack, unless there is a top-deck inspection attack to combo with it.
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jsh357

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Re: Thoughts on Jester
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2015, 12:22:14 pm »
+3

Speaking strictly about the junking aspect, Jester is more useful in games with no trashing at all.  You have a higher chance of hitting green and Coppers are even more annoying than normal.  It's also good if your opponent buys something they don't want a lot of. (terminal trashers with no villages, for instance)  I don't think Jester is a powerful junker most of the time, but it's something to consider if you don't have a better option available.

That said, I agree with eHalc that generally I like to see Jester as a gainer with junking as a cherry on top.

Naturally, Jester is at its best in multiplayer games, where it's a major star.
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jaybeez

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Re: Thoughts on Jester
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 01:13:24 pm »
0

Naturally, Jester is at its best in multiplayer games, where it's a major star.
"Major star" is an understatement.  Jester is awesome in 3P, and completely insane in 4P and beyond.

Also: Fortune Teller -> Jester is the combo that works best if you want Jester to be a junker.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 01:14:42 pm by jaybeez »
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xyz123

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Re: Thoughts on Jester
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2015, 02:20:18 pm »
0

I recently posted a Jester kingdom in the fun kingdoms thread.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11251.msg506307#msg506307

It had everything mentioned in this thread so far, top deck attacks for it to interact with, key cards you only want a small number of. It also lacked +buy to make gainers more important.

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Dingan

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Re: Thoughts on Jester
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2015, 02:26:10 pm »
0

...As a result, I think Jester is better used on most boards as payload in an established engine as opposed to an opener...

Definitely agree.  Similar to Horn o' Plenty or Outpost, I often only get Jester after my deck is well-established with other juicy components.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 02:31:46 pm by Dingan »
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jomini

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Re: Thoughts on Jester
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2015, 08:16:30 pm »
0

Jester takes a massive power dive if the cards you really want to gain are something that is going to pile quick (e.g. Minion, Hparty, Wharf), will lose steam quickly (e.g. Familiar in most games, Menage in some Jester games) after a brief stint of usefulness or needs multiple components to be useful (e.g. Island/Transmute/Apprentice/Familiar).

Secret chamber can thus be infuriatingly powerful against Jester. Dumping down something useless (e.g. Copper), something with an empty pile, or best - something that neither of you can gain regardless (e.g. Shelters, dead Mercs, or Ruins) is very nice. I wouldn't buy Schamber just to mess with Jester ... but it does drag the card up from "mostly pointless" to "maybe make some concessions to work it in".

Jester gets a lot nicer when you have scaling TfB to keep your setup more easily balanced against random gains. E.g. Jester gains you a Smithy, Remodel it to a Village to maintain action balance. Jester gains a second Pot, Forge it with a Smithy into a Province. Transmogrify is particularly nice at ensuring that you don't end up with hands full of dead terminals.


Jester is extremely weak against copper tolerant strategies. While cards like Stables and Apothecary are great to gain, the odds of hitting them are pretty low when you have a decent amount of copper floating around. Worse, giving the opponent copper can then become actively helpful. Other copper based strategies (e.g. Chouse, Madman/Csmith/+buy) are even weaker as the enabling cards tend to work terribly with Jester. Sometimes you get strong Jester setups (e.g. Fortune teller/Jester), but generally Jester is an extremely weak attack/gain when it is hitting against a big stack of copper.



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DG

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Re: Thoughts on Jester
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2015, 08:53:56 pm »
0

Jester junking is unreliable but it can do enough to prevent some strategies. Just adding a couple of bad cards to a deck early can make some engines poor and slow. Trying to slowly clean up the jester junking, one card at a time, is often less productive than having your own jesters with the +2 coin income.
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csa

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Re: Thoughts on Jester
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2015, 09:01:39 pm »
+6

One underrated aspect of Jester is that it is the perfect introductory attack card.  Though the card has more text then, say, Witch, the idea is simple enough to explain in a single sentence.  However, it introduces Curses without really being a curser, forces players to assess the relative weights of cards ("I'd guess I'd rather you have Copper than me"), is a lot weaker than it looks, is basically the only attack that speeds up (rather than slows) the game (crucial with 3+ players), and is generally a fun and zany card without introducing too many complications.

I've found some other perhaps unexpectedly good starter cards (outside the main sets) to include Menagerie, Smugglers, and Squire.
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ancientcampus

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Re: Thoughts on Jester
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2015, 04:54:25 pm »
0

...As a result, I think Jester is better used on most boards as payload in an established engine as opposed to an opener...

Definitely agree.  Similar to Horn o' Plenty or Outpost, I often only get Jester after my deck is well-established with other juicy components.
And when their deck is *also* full of juicy components.

Quote
Speaking strictly about the junking aspect, Jester is more useful in games with no trashing at all.
Quote
I realize you were specifically considering the junking aspect. However, I think speaking less strictly, Jester is generally better in boards with strong trashing. Given it's a better gainer than junker, then Jester will be stronger when your opponent has a thin deck.

It should be mentioned that you should be cautious of Jester if you're not in a mirror - for example, if you're running a weak engine and your opponent a strong money strategy. These situations are becoming more rare as the metagame is shifting towards "engine every time", but it's still there.
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